e.r.m.
Church of Christ
I'm sorry to hear that your experience has been that of smoke and mirrors.
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Baptism as a public declaration and "spirit of Jezebel"
- Thread starter e.r.m.
- Start date
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
They weren't crazy and did not hate the Romans nor the apostate Jews, as you called them.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Sorry, don't get your point here either.
sooda
Veteran Member
You need to read some first century history.. They hated the Roman occupation, the Hellenized Jews of Israel and the Apostate Jews who wanted to maintain the status quo with the Jews who got long with the Romans.
The double whammy was that Titus was having a love affair with Herod's granddaughter Queen Berniece. The double meaning in the day was that Israel was the Whore of Babylon chasing after false gods.
The Jews were horribly divided.. Essenes, Sadducees, Pharasees, Herodians, Zealots and Sicarii.. They fought each other and the Romans.
sooda
Veteran Member
You are Church Of Christ?
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
I'm very familiar with first century history. That was interesting though, thank you. I was referring to Jesus's followers (after Peter cut off Malchus's ear
).
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Yes.
sooda
Veteran Member
Yep.. I went to the Church of Christ with my dear grandparents every time we were in the US … three time a week. They were true fundamentalists.. Sad .. Their sons were all Chemical engineers with outstanding grades.. They were brilliant. ... and they served as medics in WW2... but spent their whole lives selling shoes.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Yeah, I think Church of Christ fundamentalists were more common back in the day. Sounds like they did a great job with their kids.
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Prestor John
Well-Known Member
Who are the "children of God"? What is "an heir"? What is a "joint-heir"? What was Christ to inherit? What does it mean to be "glorified" together with Christ?
These verses in Romans cannot be any clearer.
Malachi accurately records that God had commanded ancient Israel to pay tithes and other offerings.
The Old and New Testaments are filled with examples of Israelites and Jews paying tithes and other offerings.
These are the facts presented by the scriptures.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
An heir receives whatever the dead person had decided that they should receive. They don't automatically receive everything. God never said all His co-heirs would receive all His powers.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
I'm addition to the possible reasons I presented already, one other thought on baptism as a public profession of faith, because of the two, it is the more widespread. In fact, it's an incredible achievement to make this one of the predominantly held beliefs on baptism's purpose. In order to achieve and maintain its widespread unquestioned acceptance without having to offer a scripture reference, I suspect there must be more to it than its historical origin, namely John Calvin's 1527 work where he said "Baptism serves as our confession before men...." . With many teachings that have been around for a long time, in this case almost 500 years, Biblical or not, people become accustomed to it. I hope later in life, some will say to themselves, "you know there never was a scripture for that particular teaching, why did I believe it?" and be scratching their heads in wonder. But in order to perceive validity in the first place, if the preacher makes it personal to one's life, then the listener makes it their own. At this point to hear that baptism as a public profession of faith is not Biblical, as with any closely held belief, could be uncomfortable for some. Just a theory and likely not the only reason.
I'm referring only to those who have come to believe sincerely that they saw it in the Bible. Of course I am not thinking negatively about anyone who believes in this teaching. Everyone has the right to what they believe, and it is not my desire to suggest otherwise. I do wish Pastors, preachers, and teachers would be willing to filter this out of their teaching to others, knowing that it is not in Scripture.
I'm referring only to those who have come to believe sincerely that they saw it in the Bible. Of course I am not thinking negatively about anyone who believes in this teaching. Everyone has the right to what they believe, and it is not my desire to suggest otherwise. I do wish Pastors, preachers, and teachers would be willing to filter this out of their teaching to others, knowing that it is not in Scripture.
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e.r.m.
Church of Christ
The New Testament does not call for tithes, it calls for sacrificial giving with a cheerful heart. If you know of any such scripture in the New Testament, please show me.
This is a good video on the topic.
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Prestor John
Well-Known Member
That is only one possible definition of the word "heir" and not the one used in the scriptures.
The Merriam Webster dictionary's second definition of the word "heir" is,
"one who inherits or is entitled to succeed to a hereditary rank, title, or office"
And the example it gives is "heir to the throne."
Definition of HEIR
You would think that someone described as the "heir to the throne" would not receive only the literally throne, but the title and authority of the one who sits upon the throne.
The parable of the prodigal son shared by the Lord Jesus Christ claims that the faithful son would receive all that the father had.
"And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine." (Luke 15:31)
If this father happened to be the Supreme King and Creator of all the Universe, what would the Son receive?
Keep all of this in mind when we bring it back to Romans 8,
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God;
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8:14-17)
Paul decreed that those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God and therefore "heirs of God", not "inheritor of something had by God", but "heirs of God".
And we all know that the word "God" is a title bestowed upon the Supreme Being, so if we follow the Spirit and suffer with Christ we can inherit the title and authority of God.
No one said anything about "automatic". There is obviously a process described here about how we are to become like God.
Muffled
Jesus in me
So what are you saying that a person who is made wet by clergy is Biblically baptized but a person who professes to believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior is not Biblically baptized?
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Prestor John
Well-Known Member
Could you please define what a "sacrificial giving with a cheerful heart" is, because that sounds like "tithe" to me.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
The scriptures don't say we are heirs to the throne. As far as Luke 15:31, the faithful son could get all "that was left", as The Prodigal Son already got his "portion", lol.
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e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Did you watch the video? That is not the definition of a tithe.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
First, Rom 10:10 says confessing Jesus only as Lord, it does not say confess Him as Savior. That is nowhere in the Bible. That part is just something people try to smuggle in with confessing Jesus as Lord, also in Colosssians 2:6, doesn't say savior.
Secondly Romans 10:9-10 was written by someone who had believed and confessed the "Lord" Jesus Acts 22:8, 10 and still found himself with his sins three days later Acts 22:16, for which he was prescribed baptism calling on Jesus's name to get them washed away. So no, confessing Jesus as Lord is not baptism, but together with baptism, that's what is called for.
Third, it doesn't have to be done by clergy.
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Prestor John
Well-Known Member
You are being very inconsistent.
If we continue to view this "father" in the Prodigal Son story as "God the Father", then why are you placing such restrictions on the faithful son's inheritance?
Isn't God's Kingdom infinite and eternal? Without beginning or end?
True, the inheritance received by the Prodigal Son was finite, because he did not live according to his father's instruction.
But if the faithful son is to receive "everything" that the Father has, such an inheritance would be infinite and eternal.
The doctrine contained in this story is absolute and immovable.
This is the doctrine of the Father and the Son.