captainbryce
Active Member
Fair enough. I take it from your response that you define baptism as the symbolic ritual of dunking in water then?
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Baptism - what does it mean?
- Thread starter captainbryce
- Start date
ZenMonkey
St. James VII
Yes. However, I also believe that true baptism is that of Spirit (love) and of fire (life's trials). It's the same concept that Bruce alluded to. It's a process of purification. Water baptism symbolizes this, but life and love fulfills it. The earth is a metaphorical furnace of refinement. Jesus stands as the refiner.
OTOH, in Matthew 3:11, John the Baptist tells us that Christ's baptism is not of water:
And if baptism was really necessary for salvation, what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:17 would be very strange:
psychoslice
Veteran Member
I like this way of seeing the baptism, its how I see it also......baptism of fire is beyond the water baptism, it for the mature in spirit.
arthra
Baha'i
Baha'is don't actually baptize but it was defined by Abdul-Baha as spiritual...
The performance of baptismal celebration would cleanse the body, but the spirit hath no share; but the divine teachings and the exhortations of the Beauty of ABHA will baptize the soul. This is the real baptism. I hope that thou wilt receive this baptism.
~ Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v2, p. 327
The second birth of which Jesus has spoken refers to the appearance of this heavenly nature in man. It is expressed in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and he who is baptized by the Holy Spirit is a veritable manifestation of divine mercy to mankind. Then he becomes just and kind to all humanity; he entertains prejudice and ill will toward none; he shuns no nation or people.
~ Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 40
"Thou hast asked regarding the naming of children: When thou wishest to name a babe, prepare a meeting therefore; chant the verses and communes, and supplicate and implore the Threshold of Oneness and beg the attainment of guidance for the babe and wish confirmated firmness and constancy; then give the name and enjoy beverage and sweet-meat. This is spiritual baptism."
~ 'Abdu'l-Bahá: Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, pp. 149-150
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 138)
FYI - there's a hypothesis I first heard here on RF that I've since heard from other sources and seems to match up with the descriptions in the Bible: originally, baptism wasn't a mere dunking in water; rather, the person being baptized would be held under water nearly to the point of drowning. The new Christian would interpret their near-death experience as a literal, physical death. In this view, when Paul talks about believers having "died with Christ", he thought that baptized Christians really had literally died.
That's pretty much the Quaker view of baptism: that water baptism was made obsolete by Christ, and now believers are "baptized in the Holy Spirit".
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Hebrews 5
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Hebrews 6
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Lets us go unto perfection, perfection means to be mature in spirit.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Hebrews 6
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Lets us go unto perfection, perfection means to be mature in spirit.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Yes baptism into the holy spirit, this is more of a realization of your true inner SELF, the Christ Consciousness, the Quakers understand it much better.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Why say, "with all due respect" when no respect whatsoever is intended? There was nothing "convoluted" about my answer. Sorry it went over your head.
Jeesh, my answer was as good when you quoted it as it was the first time around when I posted it.
It doesn't? Well, then I guess you've got a comprehension problem.
No. It's a sacrament/ordinance which should follow believing and repenting.
Not unless you choose to receive it.
Technically, yes. But any "dunking in water" is not being baptized.
Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins really has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. The scriptures say we must be baptized by water and by the spirit. The two sacraments/ordinances are separate. It is only when we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands following our water baptism that we have received both kinds of baptism.
Yup, just as I thought. Comprehension issues. I never said "baptism is not necessary." That was you paraphrasing me -- very poorly, I might add.
Once again, your paraphrasing skills suck big time.
If you're no more clear on the issue than you were before, that's your problem, not mine. I'm sure my answer was understandable to everybody else who is following your discussion. I almost never have a problem getting my point across. When I do, it's almost always because the person who just can't quite get it isn't making the slightest bit of effort.
Actually, it was. You asked, "Wouldn't baptism come as a result of believing and repenting." My answer was: No, it wouldn't. It should, but it wouldn't necessarily. It would come as a result of believing, repenting, and choosing to be baptized.
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I'm trying to figure out here if you are genuinely unable to understand what I'm saying or if you're just trying to back me into some kind of a corner. I say this because you seem to have considerably more trouble understanding my posts than most people do.
Baptism is a sacrament (we LDS call it an ordinance, but the two are essentially the same thing). We believe that when we receive this ordinance, we are making a conscious choice to enter into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. A covenant is a two-way promise. We promise to take upon ourselves the name of Jesus Christ, to honor him in all we say and do, and to do our best to keep His commandments, repenting again whenever we fall short. In return, He promises to be our Mediator with our Father in Heaven, when we stand before Him to be judged, and to assume the punishment for the sins have committed and will continue to commit (as a result of the fact that we are still fallible mortal beings who are predisposed to sin). Through this promise, we are assured salvation, provided we "endure to the end" -- meaning that we be fully committed to serving Him faithfully for the remainder of our lives.
Jesus indicated that baptism is required for salvation. It's a sacrament/ordinance which is expected of us. It is how we solidify our relationship with Him. Still, baptism alone will not benefit us in the slightest. It must accompany a sincere heart and a willingness to be faithful servants. The scriptures say that "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved." Salvation, I believe, is a process -- not a one-time event. Since the scriptures also tell us that Jesus Christ is the "author of salvation unto those who obey Him," we know that being baptized is the beginning of our committing to walk the walk and not just talk the talk.
It's not a chicken or the egg issue at all to Mormons. Perhaps it is to some people.
payak
Active Member
Ok,however John the babtist was doing before he had anything to do with Jesus yes.
The baptism is symbolic IMO. It is a symbol for being "circumcized of the spirit", though the symbol is as important as actually accomplishing what it represents which is being "reborn of the spirit". Outward gestures for inward transformations. Jesus was always saved but still spelled it out in symbolism and metaphors, admitting that its all cryptic.
Water baptism is a show of trust between the one baptized, the one baptizing and all the others who have undergone baptism for the same purpose.
It is a show. The baptism has no power over anyone. The person can make it have power. Other people can and do expect an outward show of the purpose of baptism. But by itself it isn't anything but getting wet. I think it is what Katzpur was alluding to. Baptism becomes something along with a promise. Without the real promise, it is nothing.
It is a show. The baptism has no power over anyone. The person can make it have power. Other people can and do expect an outward show of the purpose of baptism. But by itself it isn't anything but getting wet. I think it is what Katzpur was alluding to. Baptism becomes something along with a promise. Without the real promise, it is nothing.
captainbryce
Active Member
Copy that.
captainbryce
Active Member
Trust me, I haven't understood you or any of your combative responses towards me in the past, so from this point on, I'm no longer inclined to try to understand your posts. Goodbye!
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Me combative?
From the first time I ever tried talking to you, you brushed me off as someone who had been spoonfed Mormon doctrine for so long that I was incapable of thinking for myself. Then, in this thread, you tell me that my attempt to explain what baptism means to me, you tell me my answer was "convoluted." And I'm supposedly the one who's combative. It looks like we're just going to go with the status quo here; you say you're "no longer inclined to try to understand [my] posts." Apparently nothing has changed. You've NEVER tried to understand my posts. That's unfortunate, because nobody else seems to have a hard time understanding them at all. In fact, I'm always having people tell me how understandable I make Mormonism for them. So, whatever floats your boat. It's all the same to me.
Heim
Active Member
That's beautiful.
Could it also be seen as an initiation into the faith?