Based on the premise that thoughts are spirit not substance

[ImmortalFlame]

See that you have a brain and I have a brain to demonstrate thought can happen without a brain is impossible, isn't it?

If it's impossible to demonstrate, then you cannot claim that thought can exist without a brain.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

As small as you think.

But let's for the crowd's sake go as small as molecules.

About 100 million to 500 million. Why?

 

[savagewind]

About 100 million to 500 million. Why?

Each of those bits had to have an affinity for each other. And each group of bits had to have an affinity for the other groups. I don't know math but that is A LOT of cooperation.

 

[savagewind]

If it's impossible to demonstrate, then you cannot claim that thought can exist without a brain.

I can but you won't believe me.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Each of those bits had to have an affinity for each other. And each group of bits had to have an affinity for the other groups. I don't know math but that is A LOT of cooperation.

I have no idea what you mean. Are you simply talking about chemical bonds?

 

[savagewind]

I have no idea what you mean. Are you simply talking about chemical bonds?

Let's just say that all the bonds, chemical or otherwise, existing in the physical world needed two simple substances that would hold the bond like a permanent marriage. How did those simple substances meet? Not once, but a godzillion times. And how does the bond continue for so long?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I can but you won't believe me.

You can, but it won't have any factual basis in reality and you have no reason to assume it.

 

[savagewind]

You can, but it won't have any factual basis in reality and you have no reason to assume it.

All reason does not need physical evidence. My reason for believing thought can exist without a brain is later, not before. But my observation of the creation proves to me intelligence, whose elements are thought, existed before matter did. I have even told you why but you cannot hear me.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Let's just say that all the bonds, chemical or otherwise, existing in the physical world needed two simple substances that would hold the bond like a permanent marriage. How did those simple substances meet? Not once, but a godzillion times. And how does the bond continue for so long?

...and you've lost me again. Are you trying to say that chemical bonds are permanent?

 

[savagewind]

...and you've lost me again. Are you trying to say that chemical bonds are permanent?

How long have the chemical bonds that hold the building blocks of life together been around? I did not say each bond is permanent, but thinking of it makes me laugh. Frubal for you

 

[painted wolf]

I want to compare the difficultly to make sense that thoughts have with the ease to make sense that matter has. In the history of the World how many minds of the billions of minds actually made sense? But ALL the created things make sense. Why?

I'm not sure I can agree with your opening premise.... Thoughts are substance.

We can measure thoughts as a substance. They are the electrochemical signals of our brains. The movement of specific chemicals across cellular membranes.

Not only can we measure them, but we can manipulate them in a general sense. And in some creatures in a very specifically precise way.

wa:do

 

[savagewind]

I'm not sure I can agree with your opening premise.... Thoughts are substance.

We can measure thoughts as a substance. They are the electrochemical signals of our brains. The movement of specific chemicals across cellular membranes.

Not only can we measure them, but we can manipulate them in a general sense. And in some creatures in a very specifically precise way.

wa:do

OK. How about I change "thought" to idea? Why don't ideas have similar affinity for each other that matter has?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

How long have the chemical bonds that hold the building blocks of life together been around? I did not say each bond is permanent, but thinking of it makes me laugh. Frubal for you

But then you're saying that it's miraculous that chemical bonds form at all, which is just silly.

 

[savagewind]

But then you're saying that it's miraculous that chemical bonds form at all, which is just silly.

How many kinds of chemical bonds do you think exist in the world? ALL of them, according to you, originated by no plan. They just happened according to their own particular circumstances. It is NOT silly that I do not believe that. It is rational. The mathematical equation needed for all life's elements and bonds is astronomical.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

How many kinds of chemical bonds do you think exist in the world? ALL of them, according to you, originated by no plan. They just happened according to their own particular circumstances. It is NOT silly that I do not believe that. It is rational. The mathematical equation needed for all life's elements and bonds is astronomical.

No plan? I never said that.

Chemical bonds happen inevitably, due to gravity amongst other things. Once you get past the time of exploding stars and get to the rocky planets, chemicals naturally intermingle and even more complex bonds.

What equation are you talking of by the way?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

All reason does not need physical evidence. My reason for believing thought can exist without a brain is later, not before.

You're not making sense again. All claims need evidence, especially claims that are about how the world functions. If you have no evidence, then your claim is baseless.

But my observation of the creation proves to me intelligence, whose elements are thought, existed before matter did. I have even told you why but you cannot hear me.

I hear you, your reasoning is just very poor, confusingly worded and lacking in any evidence.

 

[savagewind]

No plan? I never said that.

Chemical bonds happen inevitably, due to gravity amongst other things. Once you get past the time of exploding stars and get to the rocky planets, chemicals naturally intermingle and even more complex bonds.

What equation are you talking of by the way?

OK. There was a plan.

The equation is a name for all the successful combinations of bits of matter.

 

[painted wolf]

OK. How about I change "thought" to idea? Why don't ideas have similar affinity for each other that matter has?

I'm not sure I know what you're trying to say...

Of course ideas have affinities for each other.
The idea of controlling fire and the idea of mixing different edible things together gave us cooking. The idea of cooking and the idea of making money gave us restaurants and cook books and so on.

We combine and manipulate ideas all the time.

wa:do

 

[Gjallarhorn]

OK. There was a plan.

Yes, dictated by natural law. No one would say that rocks fall because they choose to or because it just happens.

The equation is a name for all the successful combinations of bits of matter.

So it's not an equation at all. It's personal incredulity.

 

[savagewind]

I'm not sure I know what you're trying to say...

Of course ideas have affinities for each other.
The idea of controlling fire and the idea of mixing different edible things together gave us cooking. The idea of cooking and the idea of making money gave us restaurants and cook books and so on.

We combine and manipulate ideas all the time.

wa:do

That is a good illustration. But like I said before twice, I did not say ideas never have affinity for each other. I said it is rare. Compared to the affinity of matter for each other, the affinity for ideas to work for the greater good is "poor". So the mindless physical reality is way way ahead of Man concerning getting things done.

One more time I shall say it is not impossible for the mind to get things done. It is the exception rather than the rule.