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Basically for Jews

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Choose your sources wisely. May God bless you.
Thank you. So here is what I find to begin with:
Circumcision is the removal of the foreskin of the male genital organ. This was made mandatory for Abraham and his descendants, but it is not a requirement for Christians.
Genesis 17:10 - "This is my covenant between me and you, that you and your offspring after you will keep: Every male among you must get circumcised. 11 You must circumcise the flesh of your foreskins, and it will serve as a sign of the covenant between me and you." (I'll stop there for the moment.)
I will follow up on this because there's obviously more to it.
:)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Sure, your theology prioritizes a spirit, but seems unable to discern which spirit. Judaism makes it clear. We go to God. The one and the only.

The author of the epsitles identifies two spirits. We've talked about it before. It's named in 2 Corinthians 11:14. Sometimes it's referred to as the spirit of the flesh, I think.

Jesus per John 1 is the Word made flesh. Both. Word+Flesh. 2 spirits, basically. Filled with the incarnation of the God-head in a person, is fleshy. Person = flesh. So yeah, if that is the holy spirit for you, and you prioritize it over the spirit of God which is lacking the spirit of the flesh, that explains a lot of the problems with what you write. And it also explains the inner conflict which is obvious to me in the words of the epistles which are attributed to "Paul". The author is struggling with two spirits, but cannot discern which one to listen to.
(P.S. I ain't getting into some conversations now...between housework, paperwork and Bible study I'm happy realizing that the observances such as the Passover mandated for the Jews augmented the fact that YHWH (I use the tetragrammaton as carefully as possible) wanted them to know their history. And that He was their God.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
John 15:25-26 is the perfect verse to respond to the message where John 5:39-40 was quoted since dybmh correctly implied that St. Paul was assuming for himself a divine prerogative in how he interpreted the Tanakh.
I don't know why Paul's assumption would be relevant to the connection between John 15:25-16 and John 5:39-40 other than because of the usual Christian tradition of treating Paul's writings as canonical.

No person in the Tanakh was ever indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Of course. Persons are irrelevant to deity.

St. Paul was "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit.
Christianity doesn't discern the difference between the set-apart ("holy") spirit and the spirit of Elohim, and the doctrine of the Trinity conflates the two.

Apparently the belief about Paul originated with Ananias:

And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord.
And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for [one] called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Acts 9:10-18
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
25: Circumcision is, in fact, of benefit only if you practice law; but if you are a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26: If, therefore, an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the Law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision, will it not?

First, it's not a fact that circumcision is only a benefit if you practice the law.

Oh, look, you omitted Rabbi Hirsch saying circumcision is only a benefit if you fulfill the law:

The inference is two-fold. On the one-hand, "Be a mensch, a decent human being, before you attempt to be a Jew." First acquire all the humane virtues; only then can you become a Jew.​

Rabbi Hirsch seems to imply you must first acquire the human virtues related to the righteous requirement of the Law before you attempt to be one of the circumcision (i.e., a Jew). Stated another way, circumcision is of benefit only when you've already practiced the Law and become competent at it: First acquire all the righteous virtues related to performance of the Law, and only then can you be circumcised. If that's not clear enough, we have this:

Now, had Scripture not told us here that Avraham was ninety-nine years old when the covenant of Milah ---which is the founding covenant of Judaism---was established with him, we would have thought that all of Abraham's virtues, of which we have learned until now, were the result of the covenant established with him in youth, and that the whole flowering of this covenant consisted in these virtues. In fact, however, they all preceded the covenant of Milah. The full attainment of the purely humane virtues preceded the mitzvah stated here: והיה תמים. The covenant of Avraham [that is circumcision, the founding covenant of Judaism] is a higher perfection of the humane virtues.​
The Hirsch Chumash, Genesis 17:1 (bracked added by me).​

Rabbi Hirsch appears to be saying Abraham was already a righteous person before he was then given the great honor to enter the covenant of circumcision. Rabbi Hirsch seem to be saying something similar to St. Paul, vis-à-vis, first attain to the righteousness of the Law, and then you can consider a higher perfection, i.e., becoming one of the circumcision by being circumcised.

Second, no, an uncircumcised non-Jewish person cannot consider their uncircumcision a circumcision, because the non-Jewish person was never given instructions from the Almighty regarding their foreskin one way or the other.

But the instructions found in Genesis chapter 17, say to be circumcised (without saying what that is, verse 10). And then it says secondarily to cut the flesh of the foreskin as a "sign" of what circumcision is (verse 11). Cutting the flesh is not circumcision, but a "sign" of what circumcision is (Rabbi Hirsch notes this himself). A sign is some kind of emblem that gives an idea of what it signifies. If you conflate the two (sign and what is signified by the sign) you have an utterly meaningless tautology.

What does cutting off flesh down there signify to you? What does the "sign" signify to you? In other words, why there? Why blood? Why cutting flesh, why the penis, why metzizah, etc. etc.? ------These are all "signs" signifying what circumcision is, and is all about. The signs are not circumcision (they're the sign signifying what circumcision is).

The sign of circumcision (i.e., cutting the flesh of the foreskin) is a chok חק for Israel. What the sign of circumcision means is unknown for Israel until Messiah reveals it to Israel. Israel faithfully cuts the flesh (of the foreskin), to produce the sign, and will do so, until Messiah tells them what it means. That's what they're suppose to do. But they're not suppose to conflate sign and signified as though they're the same thing.

Now poor ole YoursTrue seems to be utterly confused by all the exegetical shenanigans taking place in the Jewish interpretation of Genesis 17:10-11. And who can blame her? And now stupid ole me is going to make it still worse by unwrapping all the Hebrew high jinks going on if we but scratch deeper than the surface of the Masoretic Text.

Two Hebrew words are found in Genesis 17:10-11. The word used for being "circumcised" is מול, while the word used for cutting the flesh of your penis is מלל. They're not the same word. And the latter of the two means to cut, while Rabbi Hirsch tells us that strangely enough only here in Genesis 17 is מול used as though it means the cutting. In other words, and Rabbi Hirsch points this out, מול doesn't even mean to cut. That's מלל.

Now a Christian like YoursTrue should truly know just how well-versed St. Paul was, even though he was often speaking to Hebrew illiterates who don't even know the brilliance of his writing.

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilators of flesh. For we are the circumcision, we who worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.​
Philippians 3:2-3.​

Hebrew illiterates think Paul is just being inflammatory toward Jews, as though he's just arguing tit-for-tat. But Paul reveals an incredible mystery unknown to most Christian exegetes, but well-known to his exegetical Jewish peers like the great Ramban. What concerns Ramban about Genesis 17, is what Paul reveals to his Christian audience without them having a clue what he's revealing since in many cases they don't know Hebrew grammar from a hill of beans.

Paul reveals that what's bothering Ramban (or will bother Ramban since Paul predates him) is that in the Hebrew text of Genesis chapter 17, there are two distinct words being interpreted and translated as "circumcision" (מלל and מול). Paul properly translates מלל into the Greek κατατομην translated into English as, to scratch, cut, or mutilate. He then uses a different Greek word to translate מול; he uses the Greek word περιτομη, which in English means "circumcision" or to "circumcise." What Paul is revealing is that in Genesis chapter 17, the Jewish interpretation and translation conflates two distinct words מלל (κατατομην, scratch, cut, mutilate) and מול (περιτομη, circumcision) as though they're speaking of the same thing when they're not.

Paul uses sanctified sarcasm to imply that anyone who thinks מול is מלל (or conflates them) can't be anything but a "mutilator" of the flesh since if the word מלל means the same thing as מול "circumcision," then "the circumcision" המול is speaking of "mutilators of the flesh" since the words don't have distinct --different ---meanings. Paul is saying that if circumcision, and the sign of circumcision, are just a tautology (if they mean the same thing, and thus nothing really) then all circumcision can possibly be is mutilating the penis. But that's not true. Mutilating the penis is a "sign" signifying what מול "circumcision" actually means. If it means merely mutilating the penis, then to be "the circumcision" is merely to be a mutilator of the flesh. Paul is pointing out that Jews who think this way (i.e. that מול and מלל are talking about the same thing, rather one being a sign of something it signifies in some way) can't be anything but mutilators of the flesh since they're undeniably saying mutilating the flesh is the fulfillment of mutilating the flesh, while Genesis 17, and Paul, imply mutilating the flesh, though a strange sign indeed, signifies something that isn't mutilating the flesh (something Messiah will reveal in good time).

In a verses never exegeted properly, Paul proves that by their own choice ----i.e., turning Genesis 17:10-11 into an asinine tautology rather than admit that for Israel circumcision is a chok חק (such that they should obediently perform the ritual while admitting they don't know what it means), Jews make the sign of the covenant mean that once you've mutilated the flesh (i.e., manufactured the "sign") you've risen above your peers. Paul's statement in Philippians 3:2-3 is a brilliant way of saying that any Jew who turns a chok חק (a decree whose meaning is unknown) into a thoughtless, stupid, tautology (cutting the flesh signifies cutting the flesh) is nothing but a mutilator of the flesh according to their own thoughtless reasoning. Paul can say, as can anyone with a modicum of knowledge of Hebrew, that if the shoe fits a person must wear it.



John
 
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Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Now a Christian like YoursTrue should truly know just how well-versed St. Paul was, even though he was often speaking to Hebrew illiterates who don't even know the brilliance of his writing.

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilators of flesh. For we are the circumcision, we who worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.Philippians 3:2-3.
Circumcision isn't mutilation. Mutilation involves loss of function, and given the growth of the population of the tribes of Israel, there was no loss of function.

BTW חק roughly means "to get the joke". In this case the joke is on Paul.

Let his posterity be cut off; [and] in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
Psalms 109:13
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Oh, look, you omitted Rabbi Hirsch saying circumcision is only a benefit if you fulfill the law:

The inference is two-fold. On the one-hand, "Be a mensch, a decent human being, before you attempt to be a Jew." First acquire all the humane virtues; only then can you become a Jew.

No, I didn't omit the Rabbi saying circumcision is only a benefit if you fufill the law. The Rabbi doesn't say that, and the quote you posted doesn't say that either. "Benefit" doesn't exist anywhere in the commentary on Genesis 17. In fact, the Rabbi says the opposite. If there was a benefit, a reward, that would be a rational reason for being Jewish. And the whole point of the commentary page after page after page in Gen 17 is that being Jewish is supra-rational; it's going beyond the rational reasons.

You see, in orthodox Judaism, a commandent is done L'Shaim Shamayim, for the sake of heaven. The reward for the mitzvah IS the mitzvah.

Screenshot_20230906_062317.jpg

Screenshot_20230906_062537.jpg

Screenshot_20230906_062251.jpg

Rabbi Hirsch seems to imply you must first acquire the human virtues related to the righteous requirement of the Law before you attempt to be one of the circumcision (i.e., a Jew). Stated another way, circumcision is of benefit only when you've already practiced the Law and become competent at it: First acquire all the righteous virtues related to performance of the Law, and only then can you be circumcised. If that's not clear enough, we have this:

Nope. He's not talking about benefit.

Now, had Scripture not told us here that Avraham was ninety-nine years old when the covenant of Milah ---which is the founding covenant of Judaism---was established with him, we would have thought that all of Abraham's virtues, of which we have learned until now, were the result of the covenant established with him in youth, and that the whole flowering of this covenant consisted in these virtues. In fact, however, they all preceded the covenant of Milah. The full attainment of the purely humane virtues preceded the mitzvah stated here: והיה תמים. The covenant of Avraham [that is circumcision, the founding covenant of Judaism] is a higher perfection of the humane virtues.

Nothing here about benefit.

Rabbi Hirsch appears to be saying Abraham was already a righteous person before he was then given the great honor to enter the covenant of circumcision. Rabbi Hirsch seem to be saying something similar to St. Paul, vis-à-vis, first attain to the righteousness of the Law, and then you can consider a higher perfection, i.e., becoming one of the circumcision by being circumcised.

Nope. Nothing in the Rabbi's quote is about honor granted to the individual.

And the quote in Romans 2 says: "If, therefore, an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the Law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision, will it not?" That is NOT "attain to the righteousness of the Law, and then you can consider a higher perfection; becoming one of the circumcision by being circumcised"

Rabbi Hirsch: "becoming one of the circumcision by being circumcised"
Romans 2: "his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision"

"becoming one of the circumcision by being circumcised" is the opposite of "his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision"

But the instructions found in Genesis chapter 17, say to be circumcised (without saying what that is, verse 10). And then it says secondarily to cut the flesh of the foreskin as a "sign" of what circumcision is (verse 11). Cutting the flesh is not circumcision, but a "sign" of what circumcision is (Rabbi Hirsch notes this himself). A sign is some kind of emblem that gives an idea of what it signifies. If you conflate the two (sign and what is signified by the sign) you have an utterly meaningless tautology.

What does cutting off flesh down there signify to you? What does the "sign" signify to you? In other words, why there? Why blood? Why cutting flesh, why the penis, why metzizah, etc. etc.? ------These are all "signs" signifying what circumcision is, and is all about. The signs are not circumcision (they're the sign signifying what circumcision is).

We have discussed all of these things before. In order to proceed with this conversation I will need convincing that this time will somehow be different from the previous times I have answered these questions. My answers have not changed.

Now poor ole YoursTrue seems to be utterly confused by all the exegetical shenanigans taking place in the Jewish interpretation of Genesis 17:10-11. And who can blame her? And now stupid ole me is going to make it still worse by unwrapping all the Hebrew high jinks going on if we but scratch deeper than the surface of the Masoretic Text.

God will take good care, and I believe YoursTrue is capable and has access to resources to assist if needed beyond both you and I.

Two Hebrew words are found in Genesis 17:10-11. The word used for being "circumcised" is מול, while the word used for cutting the flesh of your penis is מלל. They're not the same word. And the latter of the two means to cut, while Rabbi Hirsch tells us that strangely enough only here in Genesis 17 is מול used as though it means the cutting. In other words, and Rabbi Hirsch points this out, מול doesn't even mean to cut. That's מלל.

We've been through this before. Please quote what is written including the conclusion. It will be just another example of how you operate. Immediately following the part where the Rabbi says, it doesn't literally mean "to cut" it is written:

"To be sure, in this context it means to cut." Then gives scripture to prove it.

ותקח צפרה צר ותכרת את־ערלת בנה ותגע לרגליו ותאמר כי חתן־דמים אתה לי׃​
Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and threw it at his feet, and said, Surely a bridegroom of blood are you to me.​
וירף ממנו אז אמרה חתן דמים למולת׃​
So he let him go; then she said, A bridegroom of blood you are, because of the circumcision.​

מול entails כרת
circumcision entails cutting

Rabbi Hirsch tells us that strangely enough only here in Genesis 17 is מול used as though it means the cutting

Deception. Fraud.

The Rabbi says the opposite. In Exodus 4:24-25 מול used as though it means the cutting. It is on page 218 of volume 2 of the Hirsch Chumash in the version I am using.

Now a Christian like YoursTrue should truly know just how well-versed St. Paul was, even though he was often speaking to Hebrew illiterates who don't even know the brilliance of his writing.

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilators of flesh. For we are the circumcision, we who worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.Philippians 3:2-3.
Hebrew illiterates think Paul is just being inflammatory toward Jews, as though he's just arguing tit-for-tat. But Paul reveals an incredible mystery unknown to most Christian exegetes, but well-known to his exegetical Jewish peers like the great Ramban. What concerns Ramban about Genesis 17, is what Paul reveals to his Christian audience without them having a clue what he's revealing since in many cases they don't know Hebrew grammar from a hill of beans.

Paul reveals that what's bothering Ramban (or will bother Ramban since Paul predates him) is that in the Hebrew text of Genesis chapter 17, there are two distinct words being interpreted and translated as "circumcision" (מלל and מול). Paul properly translates מלל into the Greek κατατομην translated into English as, to scratch, cut, or mutilate. He then uses a different Greek word to translate מול; he uses the Greek word περιτομη, which in English means "circumcision" or to "circumcise." What Paul is revealing is that in Genesis chapter 17, the Jewish interpretation and translation conflates two distinct words מלל (κατατομην, scratch, cut, mutilate) and מול (περιτομη, circumcision) as though they're speaking of the same thing when they're not.

Paul uses sanctified sarcasm to imply that anyone who thinks מול is מלל (or conflates them) can't be anything but a "mutilator" of the flesh since if the word מלל means the same thing as מול "circumcision," then "the circumcision" המול is speaking of "mutilators of the flesh" since the words don't have distinct --different ---meanings. Paul is saying that if circumcision, and the sign of circumcision, are just a tautology (if they mean the same thing, and thus nothing really) then all circumcision can possibly be is mutilating the penis. But that's not true. Mutilating the penis is a "sign" signifying what מול "circumcision" actually means. If it means merely mutilating the penis, then to be "the circumcision" is merely to be a mutilator of the flesh. Paul is pointing out that Jews who think this way (i.e. that מול and מלל are talking about the same thing, rather one being a sign of something it signifies in some way) can't be anything but mutilators of the flesh since they're undeniably saying mutilating the flesh is the fulfillment of mutilating the flesh, while Genesis 17, and Paul, imply mutilating the flesh, though a strange sign indeed, signifies something that isn't mutilating the flesh (something Messiah will reveal in good time).

In a verses never exegeted properly, Paul proves that by their own choice ----i.e., turning Genesis 17:10-11 into an asinine tautology rather than admit that for Israel circumcision is a chok חק (such that they should obediently perform the ritual while admitting they don't know what it means), Jews make the sign of the covenant mean that once you've mutilated the flesh (i.e., manufactured the "sign") you've risen above your peers. Paul's statement in Philippians 3:2-3 is a brilliant way of saying that any Jew who turns a chok חק (a decree whose meaning is unknown) into a thoughtless, stupid, tautology (cutting the flesh signifies cutting the flesh) is nothing but a mutilator of the flesh according to their own thoughtless reasoning. Paul can say, as can anyone with a modicum of knowledge of Hebrew, that if the shoe fits a person must wear it.

I have no reason to read this. You have demonstrated a repeated problem with accuracy. What you claim is the opposite of what is written.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Circumcision isn't mutilation. Mutilation involves loss of function, and given the growth of the population of the tribes of Israel, there was no loss of function.

The original function is to father heathen, goyim, sons of Cain. After the mutilation, the original function is lost in the sense it now births something different than it was originally designed for in Genesis 2:21. After the mutilation (ritualized emasculation), it births a Jew by means of a conception that takes the ritual emasculation מלל, and transforms it from ritual to reality מול: virgin birth, or in all but one case, a rebirth that's conceived without the organ that's been emasculated (he that believeth on the first virgin conception will himself be reconceived, reborn, born-again, without reference to the organ of his first birth). Paul's statement concerns the fact that if it doesn't birth someone or something different than it did prior to the mutilation, then circumcision is the worst kind of mutilation; a mutilation that mutilates the fact that mutilation involves loss of previous function (an asinine tautology: mutilation of mutilation).
מילה [circumcision] is not a completion of, or supplement to, physical birth [since that function is thereafter lost], but the beginning of a higher "octave." It marks the second, higher "birthday,". . . [from a conception based on mutilated phallic-function]. . . Physical birth . . . belongs to the night . . . but מילה, birth as a Jew, belongs to the daytime. . . Therefore, the physical birth of the child is completed on the seventh day. The eighth day, the octave of birth, as it were, repeats the day of [physical] birth, but as a day of higher, spiritual birth for his Jewish mission and his Jewish destiny.​
Rabbi Samson Hirsch (brackets and underline mine).​

Rabbi Hirsch could hardly be clearer that physical conception occurs at night (the Talmud forbids phallic-sex during the day, or in the light of day). The original function of the male-organ, physical birth, is transformed through the mutilation (ritual emasculation), so that the unscathed organ that birthed the uncircumcised body (physical) on the seventh day, can, after the mutilation (ritual emasculation) birth a "spiritual" (R. Hirsch) being, a Jew.



John
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
@John D. Brey , @Ebionite ,

Friends, per scripture Jacob is a Goy. So please, let's not propagate the word Goy and Goyim as a slur. It's not.

ויאמר יהוה לה שני גיים בבטנך ושני לאמים ממעיך יפרדו ולאם מלאם יאמץ ורב יעבד צעיר׃​
And the Lord said to her, Two Goyim are in your womb, and two peoples shall be separated from your bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.​
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Goyim is about numerosity, not ancestry.

I was taught it is about physicality. It's the physical, material, outer dimension. Like Guf. גוף. As contrasted with אם, which is more of a spiritual connection. A 'nation' goy, contrasted with a 'people' ahm.


From this one can understand where the slur came from. It's saying that a person is insensitive, they're corporeal, boorish. But that wasn't intended originally. And even if it is used that way, it's just saying that a person is acting with their body not their mind or their soul, their Guf. Or in english, they're Goofy.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I was taught it is about physicality. It's the physical, material, outer dimension. Like Guf. גוף. As contrasted with אם, which is more of a spiritual connection. A 'nation' goy, contrasted with a 'people' ahm.


From this one can understand where the slur came from. It's saying that a person is insensitive, they're corporeal, boorish. But that wasn't intended originally. And even if it is used that way, it's just saying that a person is acting with their body not their mind or their soul, their Guf. Or in english, they're Goofy.
I believe you mean עם

over time and usage, certain terms that were perfectly innocuous in the 5 books became shorthands for other people, and negative ones at that. There is nothing inherently "wrong" with being called "Jew" but the word is often used with an insulting intent, so much so that in some people's minds, the label has become inherently problematic.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
@John D. Brey , @Ebionite ,

Friends, per scripture Jacob is a Goy. So please, let's not propagate the word Goy and Goyim as a slur. It's not.

ויאמר יהוה לה שני גיים בבטנך ושני לאמים ממעיך יפרדו ולאם מלאם יאמץ ורב יעבד צעיר׃​
And the Lord said to her, Two Goyim are in your womb, and two peoples shall be separated from your bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.​
Twins are significant.

28And the Lord afterward remembered Adinah the wife of Laban, and she conceived and bare twin daughters, and Laban called the names of his daughters, the name of the elder Leah, and the name of the younger Rachel.

And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Isaiah 22:22
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Goyim is about numerosity, not ancestry.

אני הנה בריתי אתך והיית לאב המון גוים

As for me, behold, my covenant [is] with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Genesis 17:4

The Hebrew throughout Genesis chapter 17 is something to behold. The ways it's twisted to support problematic interpretations is a thing of beauty, or rather ugliness, to speak more correctly. And rightly so. Genesis 17 is Grand Central Station so far as Jewish/Christian debate is concerned.

Fwiw, I've found no Jewish interpreter who is more willing to question the weirdness and error of the traditional Jewish interpretation of Genesis 17 than Rabbi Hirsch. Most of what I say about the exegesis in that chapter comes from him, and is backed up by him, if a person has access to the full compendium of his exegetical statements.

For instance, take the verse you note. Earlier in this thread it was pointed out that although over two-thousand times in the Tanakh, the Hebrew consonants נתן are interpreted to mean something is being "given" to someone or thing, suddenly, in Genesis chapter 17, exclusively, the consonants are interpreted to speak of God "making" ברא something for Abraham, or of Abraham. Rabbi Hirsch is quoted pointing this out.

If we use the weight of sound exegesis to interpret the Hebrew consonants נתן correctly ---"give" (not "make") ----verse 5 doesn't say God will "make" Abraham the father of the goyim, but that he will give him the father of the goyim. The father of the goyim is the "covenant" originally established between God and mankind. The Hebrew word for "covenant" ברית is constructed as a hieroglyph, or pictogram, of the "house" בית where the "firstborn" ר (reish or rosh) is hidden in the belly ב–ר–ית awaiting a late, miraculous, birth. The very meaning of the covenant between God and mankind is that God will give his firstborn son to mankind (John 3:16).

Can you see why Jewish exegetes are willing to interpret נתן as "make" rather than "give"? If the consonants נתן mean "give" as they do two-thousand times outside of Genesis 17, then God is not "making" a covenant with Abraham in Genesis 17, but giving him the right to establish the actual primogeniture through which God will give humanity His son, who, God's son, will be the father of the goyim who enter the Abrahamic covenant through faith in him.

What is the meaning of this latter phrase? To maintain that it refers to Avraham's physical descendants is difficult, for they are mentioned only in verse 6. The name "אברהם" also shows that, here, the phrase is not to be taken in the physical sense. Were אב meant to be taken literally, in the physical sense, the form of the name would be "אבהם" and the ר would be meaningless and disruptive.​
Rabbi Hirsch.​

Rabbi Hirsch points out that the ר in the name Abraham means the covenant isn't about his direct physical progeny, but about some kind of spiritual son who the ר put in his name refers to. The ר refers to the son of God, the firstborn God put in the first human, ha-adam (and the first word ב–ר–שית, when he gave the first human the covenant as he's now giving it to Abraham. The ר given to the name Abram is the "giving" נתן of the "covenant" ב–ר–ית. Abraham's name is incarnated with the ר, the firstborn (rosh) who will come through his physical progeny but not be directly sired through the same organ his physical progeny are sired through. That organ will be mutilated, so that it's original purpose, birth sons through the line of Adam after the fall, no longer applies. The covenant of God, the firstborn of the first human, will be born of a pregnancy that so mutilates the male-organ that this son of God is born without it, if you can believe that.




John
 
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Ebionite

Well-Known Member
If we use the weight of sound exegesis to interpret the Hebrew consonants נתן correctly ---"give" (not "make") ----verse 4 doesn't say God will "make" Abraham the father of the goyim, but that he will give him the father of the goyim. The father of the goyim is the "covenant" originally established between God and mankind. The Hebrew word for "covenant" ברית is constructed as a hieroglyph, or pictogram, of the "house" בית where the "firstborn" ר (reish or rosh) is hidden in the belly awaiting a late, miraculous, birth. The very meaning of the covenant between God and mankind is that God will give his firstborn son to mankind (John 3:16).
The problem with that is that verse 4 does not have נתן in the text, so "to be" refers to Abraham, i.e. Abraham is to be the father.

Firstborn relates to Ephraim, even in the prophetic context of the crucifixion.

They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim [is] my firstborn.
Jeremiah 31:9

For I [will be] unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, [even] I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue [him].
I will go [and] return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
Come, and let us return unto YHWH: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hosea 5:14-6:2

(To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.) My El, my El, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?
Psalms 22:1
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The problem with that is that verse 4 does not have נתן in the text, so "to be" refers to Abraham, i.e. Abraham is to be the father.

As Rabbi Hirsch, Rashi, and others point out, God "gives" נתן Abraham the spiritual father of the goyim (verse 5). But God also says he will make Abraham himself fruitful, and nations will come out of him too (Islam and Israel). It's fairly clear that two things are being spoken of (Abraham's physical progeny and some future spiritual son: Messiah). And most of the sages admit it. Rabbi Hirsch can, and has, been quoted making this very point.



John
 

Firenze

Active Member
Premium Member
This maternal primogeniture is a giant part of the genealogy of Jesus (as it's being examined elsewhere in a thread by that name). Rabbi Samson R. Hirsch, who's a phenomenal Jewish exegete, states that in the literal Hebrew of Genesis 17, God doesn't say he's establishing a "new" covenant with Abraham based on circumcision, but that he (God) is "re-establishing" an existing covenant. The existing covenant is the one that was dissolved when Adam sinned and was kicked out of the garden.

Since circumcision is said to be the sign and signifier of the "restoration" of God's original covenant to Adam (with Abraham now the target of the covenant), it doesn't take a rocket-scientist to know why, after the circumcision, Abraham's offspring are reckoned "maternally" not paternally. Ritually speaking (since Abraham only ritually removes the new flesh added to Adam in Genesis 2:21), not only are all of Abraham's offspring (post-circumcision), symbolically virgin born (since Abraham has ritually removed the fathering organ) but therein they are all, all of Israel, reckoned (symbolically at least) the firstborn fathered not by Abraham, but by God himself. All of Israel are reckoned, ritually speaking, the sons and daughters Adam would have had had he "mothered" his firstborn (with God as the father) rather than having his body desecrated with the fathering organ (Genesis 2:21), and thereafter, raising Cain against God's original intent. Abraham is the new Adam. And Israel are the new sons of God.

To some degree, circumcision restored Abraham and his descendants to the status of Adam before his sin.​
Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, Handbook of Jewish Thought, p. 47.​



John
So, if the original covenant was re-established, whereby Adam would not die, then why do we still die?
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Rabbi Hirsch points out that the ר in the name Abraham means the covenant isn't about his direct physical progeny, but about some kind of spiritual son who the ר put in his name refers to.

HAH! Another lie. Boooooo. Hisssss.

What is the meaning of this latter phrase? To maintain that it refers to Avraham's physical descendants is difficult, for they are mentioned only in verse 6. The name "אברהם" also shows that, here, the phrase is not to be taken in the physical sense. Were אב meant to be taken literally, in the physical sense, the form of the name would be "אבהם" and the ר would be meaningless and disruptive. Rabbi Hirsch.

1694026254375.png The explanation of the Reish, ר, immediately follows what you quoted. But you omitted it. You are lying by omission.
1694026254375.png


Here is the entire quote. No breaks. No interuptions. No elipsis. No omissions. Minor addition in brackets added by me.
What is the meaning of this latter phrase? To maintain that it refers to Avraham's physical descendants is difficult, for they are mentioned only in verse 6. The name "Avraham" also shows that, here, the phrase is not to be taken in the physical sense. Were "Av" meant to be taken literally, in the physical sense, the form of the name would be "Avhem/Avham", and the "R" would be meaningless and disruptive.​
Rather, "Av-Hamohn Goyim" ( Father of a multiude of nations, Gen 17:5 ) is equivalent to "Aihver-Hamohn Goyim". "Aihver", "wing," symbolizes the power to take wing and soar, from which we get, "Ahvir". Thus we get "Ahvir Yaakov" ( Genesis 49:24, et al ) signifying "carrying on its wings/pinions" [ pinions = Evraso, same root letters as Avraham, same letters as Ahvir, same letters as Aihver. Aleph-Vet-Reish ]. And thus Avraham is the Ahvir HaGoyim, the lever that raises them to spiritual and moral heights. Were it not for Avraham's spirit, the nations would resemble a HaMohn, a confused, swaying throng, (no one knowing where to), moving without direction or purpose; they would not resemble a troop, which obeys a central command and assembles for a common purpose, but a disorderly multitude. Avraham imbues them with a common spirit, and thereby becomes their spiritual father.​

So. The Rabbi says אברהם is connected to אבר, אביר, אברתו. Or in to put it another way. אברהם is connected to אבר, אביר, אברתו.

NOT what you wrote "about some kind of spiritual son".

Most of what I say about the exegesis in that chapter comes from him, and is backed up by him,

Not true. You claim to know what the Rabbi has written, then what follows are intentional falsehoods. You don't care about lying, do you?

Rabbi Hirsch points out that the ר in the name Abraham means the covenant isn't about his direct physical progeny, but about some kind of spiritual son who the ר put in his name refers to.

False. The Rabbi writes that the R in Avraham indicates Avraham is "the lever that raises them to spiritual and mora heights." Avraham is the lever. NOT a spiritual son. That is a lie.

The Rabbi says it is Avraham's spirit. Avraham's. Not a son. No. Not a son. Not progeny. The R indicates Avraham is the lever that raises the other nations. Avraham. Avraham. Not any imagined future super-hero.

The ר refers to the son of God, the firstborn God put in the first human, ha-adam, when he gave the first human the covenant as he's now giving it to Abraham.

That is a lie. The Rabbi never writes this.

The ר given to the name Abram is the "giving" נתן of the "covenant" ב–ר–ית. Abraham's name is incarnated with the ר, the firstborn (rosh) who will come through his physical progeny but not be directly sired through the same organ his physical progeny are sired through. That organ will be mutilated, so that it's original purpose, birth sons through the line of Adam after the fall, no longer applies. The covenant of God, the firstborn of the first human, will be born of a pregnancy that so mutilates the male-organ that this son of God is born without it, if you can believe that.

This is a lie as well. The Rabbi never writes this either.

What was it you said?

Rabbi Hirsch. Most of what I say about the exegesis in that chapter comes from him, and is backed up by him,

Total lies. None of what you brought for this chapter comes from him, or is backed up by him.
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
As Rabbi Hirsch, Rashi, and others point out, God "gives" נתן Abraham the spiritual father of the goyim (verse 5).

That is a lie. The Rabbi does not write that God gives Avraham the spiritual father of the other nations.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
So, if the original covenant was re-established, whereby Adam would not die, then why do we still die?

Believe it or not, that question ate at Abraham too. And Abraham knew that the "r" (Hebrew reish which means "rosh," i.e., "firstborn") that God put in his name, represents the "rosh" or firstborn. So Abraham assumed, with good cause, that since Isaac was the first person born after he mutilated the organ that passes on death through sex, naturally Isaac would be the first person born in the line of Adam (post-lapsed mankind), who shouldn't be subject to the death-sentence passed on through what the pen-is that writes the poison of testosterone into the womb to contaminate the firstborn like the father was contaminated. That pen-is the original poison pen so to say.

Anyway, it eats at Abraham that Isaac shouldn't be subject to death any longer since he's the firstborn of the covenant God gave prior to the death sentence found in Genesis. Abraham finally can't take the suspense any longer. He loads wood on Isaac's back and hikes him up a hill to prove to all the world that he believes in the nature of the covenant renewed through him when he mutilated the organ that began raising Cain with humanity in the first place.

So why did the angel of the Lord stop Abraham?

That's the question I find most interesting in all the back and forth going on in this thread. And it's why I gave dybmh a trophy for one of his messages in this thread where he comes dangerously close to answering that question.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
NOT what you wrote "about some kind of spiritual son".

Were אב meant to be taken literally, in the physical sense, the form of the name would be "אבהם" and the ר would be meaningless and disruptive. . . Therefore, the physical birth of the child is completed on the seventh day. The eighth day, the octave of birth, as it were, repeats the day of [physical] birth, but as a day of higher, spiritual birth for his Jewish mission and his Jewish destiny.​

It seems patently clear, at least in the statements Rabbi Hirsch makes above (bracket and underlining mine) that Rabbi Hirsch is claiming the R in Ab-R-aham isn't intended to be taken as a "rosh" or "firstborn" (the Hebrew R, or reish, means the "head" or "first" or "firstborn") in a physical sense, you know like the birth of Isaac, but symbolizes the R, or reish, in the swollen belly of the "covenant" ב–ר–ית which is the house ב–ית of the R (or reish) ית-R–ב (berit as the house of the reish, house of the true firstborn whom Cain usurped), but instead speaks of some kind of spiritual firstborn who will be born late, no doubt (Cain's birth was part and parcel of the temporary abortion), but who though still-born, is still born, alive mind you, and from a conception and birth that utterly mutilates the natural, physical, requirement, that requires an unmutilated, intact, phallus, father a physical firstborn.



John
 
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