Basically for Jews

[YoursTrue]

Because "hated without a cause" describes prejudice.


What I'm saying is based on a literal interpretation of the language of fulfilment. Once you recognize the associations between the prophetic Psalms and the characters who were most closely connected to the betrayal it gets clearer.

Genesis 15 connects all this to Abraham (justice and righteousness are both translations of the Hebrew word TzDK). Knowledge implies belief in the truth of something.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11

And he believed in YHWH; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Genesis 15:6

Genesis 15:6 is at the center of the doctrinal dispute between James and Paul over faith vs works, Paul connects to Judas' betrayal via Paul's doctrine of vicarious atonement.

James did write that faith without works is dead. Yes, this certainly would encourage a person to realize this. Not sure what you're talking about here. Yes, it is a powerful statement, that "faith without works is dead." James 2:20.

 

[Ebionite]

OK, but now that you mention it, it does say that the entire law would be fulfilled. Very interesting.

There are other references to fulfilment.

Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that].
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.
Matthew 27:3-10

... but it wasn't Jeremy/Jeremiah, but Zechariah

And I said unto them, If ye think good, give [me] my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty [pieces] of silver.
And YHWH said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty [pieces] of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of YHWH.
Zechariah 11:12-13

... and according to Peter, Judas didn't return the silver:

Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Acts 1:16-18

... but Peter does associate Judas with Psalm 69:

They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, [being] mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restored [that] which I took not away.
Psalms 69:4

 

[Ebionite]

James did write that faith without works is dead.

In context, James was talking about Genesis 15. Again fulfilment is mentioned.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:20-24

Not sure what you're talking about here.

Genesis 15 connects to several significant ideas. One is the ideological conflict between Pauline Christianity and James the Just (he is called James the less in Mark). Genesis 15 was referred to by Paul in support of his doctrine of faith:

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Romans 4:3

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Galatians 3:6

 

[John D. Brey]

First of all, apparently for a long time now for some the Messiah has not made an arrival. Yes, seeing 'why' can be problematic for some to give an answer.

I can't parse your statement with any certainty? But if you're implying that it's peculiar that the Jewish messiah seems to be so late appearing for Jews, then that same oddity would seemingly apply to Christians expecting the return of Christ? Why has the Jewish messiah, and the Christian's resurrected one, tarried?

Fwiw, I suspect both will be paying us a visit sooner than most expect.



John

 

[YoursTrue]

I can't parse your statement with any certainty? But if you're implying that it's peculiar that the Jewish messiah seems to be so late appearing for Jews, then that same oddity would seemingly apply to Christians expecting the return of Christ? Why has the Jewish messiah, and the Christian's resurrected one, tarried?

Fwiw, I suspect both will be paying us a visit sooner than most expect.



John

It seems you are equating the first appearance of the Messiah with the foretold return as if Jews are looking for the first appearance. Is that right about how you think Jewish thinking may go on this matter?

 

[YoursTrue]

In context, James was talking about Genesis 15. Again fulfilment is mentioned.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:20-24



Genesis 15 connects to several significant ideas. One is the ideological conflict between Pauline Christianity and James the Just (he is called James the less in Mark).

I don't know about "Pauline Christianity," whatever that is, so can't follow your reasoning here. Many are realizing (no matter what religion they are from) that we're living in perilous times. While I may not agree with various religious points, it seems that many are realizing we're living in that time of the end before the kingdom of God takes over this miserably run earth and makes it (with willing humans) into a paradise.

 

[John D. Brey]

It seems you are equating the first appearance of the Messiah with the foretold return as if Jews are looking for the first appearance. Is that right about how you think Jewish thinking may go on this matter?

Your first sentence is difficult to parse. But I think it's clear that Jews don't believe Messiah has come yet. So they're faithfully awaiting his initial arrival and unveiling. Thus, it will be quite a surprise for them when their Messiah arrives only to realize then, that his revelation is his return.



John

 

[Ebionite]

I don't know about "Pauline Christianity," whatever that is, so can't follow your reasoning here.

By Pauline Christianity I mean the Hellenized religion that developed from Antioch. James the Just was associated with the nationalists who rejected foreign influence.

Many are realizing (no matter what religion they are from) that we're living in perilous times. While I may not agree with various religious points, it seems that many are realizing we're living in that time of the end before the kingdom of God takes over this miserably run earth and makes it (with willing humans) into a paradise.

The time of the end is associated with the fulfilment of prophecy:

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
Isaiah 55:10-11

Humans are associated with Rome rather than with the divine. Transcending the human condition involves making that association void.

 

[YoursTrue]

Your first sentence is difficult to parse. But I think it's clear that Jews don't believe Messiah has come yet. So they're faithfully awaiting his initial arrival and unveiling. Thus, it will be quite a surprise for them when their Messiah arrives only to realize then, that his revelation is his return.



John

Look, whatever they believe it no longer makes sense much to me. And, as the little saying goes, they all can have different opinions and I guess maybe all be right? (Oh well, I say, and am glad I read different opinions here. Kind of like the "opening of the eyes?" )

 

[YoursTrue]

By Pauline Christianity I mean the Hellenized religion that developed from Antioch. James the Just was associated with the nationalists who rejected foreign influence.


The time of the end is associated with the fulfilment of prophecy:

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
Isaiah 55:10-11

Humans are associated with Rome rather than with the divine. Transcending the human condition involves making that association void.

Here's what I'm saying after reading so many of these comments. I firrmly agree with the following statement: "All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son except the Father; neither does anyone fully know the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him." Matthew chapter 11.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not exactly that question but it seems not all Jews agree on who is to be accepted as a Jew. Or better yet who determines who is a Jew or is not a Jew...

Every Jew accepts a person born of a Jewish mom to be a Jew.

Converts are also universally accepted.

There are only two items of disagreement.

The first is that the Reform also accept as Jews those born of a Jewish father, if and only if that child is raised in the Jewish faith. This causes a lot of problems among Jews, because marriage contracts and stuff become chaotic when there is no agreement a person is a Jew.

The second problem is that the Orthodox only accept their own converts as converts. They have this idea that their form of Judaism is the only legitimate form, so therefore anyone converted by i.e. a Conservative beit din did not really convert to Judaism but to some other religion. I find this equally irritating. Its no different than Christian fundamentalists claiming they are the only TRUE Chrsitians.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don't know about "Pauline Christianity,"

Pauline Christianity is that version of Christianity that teaches a believer does not need to keep the Law. In its most extreme version, it says that a person is justified by faith alone -- that obedience and good works have nothing to do with it.

In the earliest days of the church, there was more than one group. In addition to the Pauline Christians, which I sometimes refer to as proto-Catholic/Orthodox, you also had the Nazarenes (Jewish believers who continued practicing Judaism, who were concentrated in Jerusalem under the leadership of James), you had Marcionites (long story, you can google them if you want), and Gnostics (matter is bad, and you are saved by esoteric knowledge). All of these groups died out, leaving the Pauline Christians to dominate history.

 

[YoursTrue]

Pauline Christianity is that version of Christianity that teaches a believer does not need to keep the Law. In its most extreme version, it says that a person is justified by faith alone -- that obedience and good works have nothing to do with it.

In the earliest days of the church, there was more than one group. In addition to the Pauline Christians, which I sometimes refer to as proto-Catholic/Orthodox, you also had the Nazarenes (Jewish believers who continued practicing Judaism, who were concentrated in Jerusalem under the leadership of James), you had Marcionites (long story, you can google them if you want), and Gnostics (matter is bad, and you are saved by esoteric knowledge). All of these groups died out, leaving the Pauline Christians to dominate history.

There were those who spearheaded the testimony by Jews at the beginning of Christianity before the notice was put forth to proselytize to non-Jews as well about the Christ, making decisions upon occasion about behavior.