Basis for Trusting Muhammad?

[interminable]

Here's information about an ancient Greek astronomer called Aristarkhos of Samos whose work proposing heliocentrism is referenced by Archimedes in his book The Sand Reckoner. If Aristarkhos' claims can be dismissed as a lucky guess because they didn't have telescopes then so can yours. And I doubt Muhammad was illiterate - there's no reason to believe a person incapable of reading or writing can produce a book any more than a man without hands can manually carve something out of wood.

Sir
U are overlooking the general point and focus on something that I mentioned as an additional evidence of prophecy of prophet muhammad peace be upon him
The main point is what is miracle??

A book claims that u can't bring like me although all of u can speak
If it's not a miracle so what is it??
And what should god do to make u persuaded that a prophet is prophet???
I can promise those who deny this miracle if god reveals himself for them they say this is just an illusion and simply deny the existence of God

It's common that we know something but we deny it because it's consequences are painful or harmful for our passions

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

How can u prove it???
It's just a statement without any evidence
They say 4 centuries ago by telescope we were able to look through the sky and first person is galileo
If you are right they didn't say such things

Besides he was just an illiterate person

The ancients didn't need a telescope. People have been doing it thanks to just math for ages. Look at Stonehenge and other similar places: they used math and careful observation to track extraplanetary motion.

The main point is what is miracle??

Tends to be just something we thought was really, really cool, like when a tornado destroys half a neighborhood but we're left standing ... it's a miracle to US ... but not so much the people who lost everything.

 

[interminable]

People with eyes can see the moon and sun 'moving' across the skies every day. There is nothing in these verses that suggests anything other than a poetic discussion of the directly observable:

And a sign for them is the night; We strip it of the day and lo, they are in darkness. (37) And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing. (38) And the moon -- We have determined it by stations, till it returns like an aged palm-bough. (39) It behoves not the sun to overtake the moon, neither does the night outstrip the day, each swimming in a sky.

He created the heavens and the earth in truth, wrapping night about the day, and wrapping the day about the night; and He has subjected the sun and the moon, each of them running to a stated term. Is not He the All-mighty, the All-forgiving? (5)

This whole 'scientific miracles' idea was a Saudi PR stunt from the 1980s and tends to only work with a massive dose of credulity combined with a lack of knowledge of the history of scientific discoveries



Pythagoras proved the world was round with a couple of sticks. From a scientific perspective at least, this is more impressive than a vague metaphor about the sun and moon swimming through the sky.

What are u talking about??

We can't even sense the motion of earth let alone sun that takes billion years to move one time around the center of milky way galaxy

And I told u this is just an additional evidence for proving power of God
Every statement that I say u can deny it simply but u have to consider a collection as a whole thing

And I wanna read your response about dividing moon into two hemispheres

 

[Augustus]

What are u talking about??

We can't even sense the motion of earth let alone sun that takes billion years to move one time around the center of milky way galaxy

And I told u this is just an additional evidence for proving power of God
Every statement that I say u can deny it simply but u have to consider a collection as a whole thing

Sit in your garden and watch the sun/moon for 24h. Based purely on your observations, would you say that they appeared to be 'moving' across the sky?

Go to near the equator and watch a sunset, the sun is visibly 'moving' past the horizon. Full sun above the horizon to no sun takes about 5 mins.

The collection as a whole contains no scientific miracles. This is not surprising as it is not a scientific text. There is nothing wrong with having no scientific miracles as they are not the purpose of a religious text. Like I said, it was a PR stunt invented by the Saudis in the 1980s that started this particular brand of apologetics.

And I wanna read your response about dividing moon into two hemispheres

Strange that precisely zero non-Muslims noticed such a spectacular astronomical event. Why do you think that was?

Also, why does the Quran seem to argue against Muhammed performing miracles, yet the Sira contradicts this? The Quran is the more reliable text after all and hadith were frequently fabricated to explain parts of the Quran that were difficult to interpret. I'd guess that this hadith is trying to explain 54:1 - THE LAST HOUR draws near, and the moon is split asunder!

The Prophet and miracles

While the attitude of earlier prophets, especially their endurance when put to the test is constantly recalled to Muammad as a model to follow and a source of comfort, the miracles which served to confirm and authenticate their missions are denied him. In more than one passage of the Qurān we find him vainly asking God for a sign to convince his people: “If you could wish fora passage opening into the ground or a ladder up to the sky in order to give them a sign! If God had wanted to he would have gathered them all on guidance. Therefore do not be among those who are ignorant”(q 6:36; see ignorance). Elsewhere are listed miracles sought by the Prophet: the simple descent (from heaven) of a book or an angel (q 6:7-8), the outpouring of a spring or a stream in a garden, a downpour from the skies, a house full of treasure,and his being transported to heaven(q 17:90-3). This last request appears in the sūra that begins with a reference to the journey by night (see ascension). This shows that “the greatest signs” that the Prophet must contemplate during the course of his ascension are intended for him rather than for the unbelievers. The Qurān thus explains the relative pointlessness of miracles: since God has not given faith to the unbeliever, he is incapable of belief (see freedom and predestination). Furthermore the refusal of divine signs and the coming of angels risks provoking divine punishment (e.g. q 25:20-2). Like others before him, Muammad is accused of untruthfulness and magic (q 54:2; 74:24, etc.) and his people challenge him to bring about the punishment that he proclaims. Confronted by such accusations, he is reminded of the pointlessness of miracles. Instead of this he must assert his own human nature (see impeccability) and repudiate all miraculous power (e.g. q 6:50), but proclaim instead the revealed character of his inspiration and actions. . (Miracles - Encyclopedia of the Quran vol 3)

 

[interminable]

Sit in your garden and watch the sun/moon for 24h. Based purely on your observations, would you say that they appeared to be 'moving' across the sky?

Go to near the equator and watch a sunset, the sun is visibly 'moving' past the horizon. Full sun above the horizon to no sun takes about 5 mins.

The collection as a whole contains no scientific miracles. This is not surprising as it is not a scientific text. There is nothing wrong with having no scientific miracles as they are not the purpose of a religious text. Like I said, it was a PR stunt invented by the Saudis in the 1980s that started this particular brand of apologetics.



Strange that precisely zero non-Muslims noticed such a spectacular astronomical event. Why do you think that was?

Also, why does the Quran seem to argue against Muhammed performing miracles, yet the Sira contradicts this? The Quran is the more reliable text after all and hadith were frequently fabricated to explain parts of the Quran that were difficult to interpret. I'd guess that this hadith is trying to explain 54:1 - THE LAST HOUR draws near, and the moon is split asunder!

The Prophet and miracles

While the attitude of earlier prophets, especially their endurance when put to the test is constantly recalled to Muammad as a model to follow and a source of comfort, the miracles which served to confirm and authenticate their missions are denied him. In more than one passage of the Qurān we find him vainly asking God for a sign to convince his people: “If you could wish fora passage opening into the ground or a ladder up to the sky in order to give them a sign! If God had wanted to he would have gathered them all on guidance. Therefore do not be among those who are ignorant”(q 6:36; see ignorance). Elsewhere are listed miracles sought by the Prophet: the simple descent (from heaven) of a book or an angel (q 6:7-8), the outpouring of a spring or a stream in a garden, a downpour from the skies, a house full of treasure,and his being transported to heaven(q 17:90-3). This last request appears in the sūra that begins with a reference to the journey by night (see ascension). This shows that “the greatest signs” that the Prophet must contemplate during the course of his ascension are intended for him rather than for the unbelievers. The Qurān thus explains the relative pointlessness of miracles: since God has not given faith to the unbeliever, he is incapable of belief (see freedom and predestination). Furthermore the refusal of divine signs and the coming of angels risks provoking divine punishment (e.g. q 25:20-2). Like others before him, Muammad is accused of untruthfulness and magic (q 54:2; 74:24, etc.) and his people challenge him to bring about the punishment that he proclaims. Confronted by such accusations, he is reminded of the pointlessness of miracles. Instead of this he must assert his own human nature (see impeccability) and repudiate all miraculous power (e.g. q 6:50), but proclaim instead the revealed character of his inspiration and actions. . (Miracles - Encyclopedia of the Quran vol 3)

I don't know what are u denying???
It's as clear as day that the motions of sun and moon and earth are completely different
Something that u see in equator is completely illusion there is no horizon at all we think it's .
And when god says sun has its special orbit he means circulation with millions of stars around the center of milky way galaxy not that one u see everyday


There are lots of reliable traditions that says division of moon was a miracle that heathens of mecca asked the prophet and pictures of the moon can evidently that moon was divided .


About miracles and prophet
Sir those who wanna reach god they will receive from god some signs that help them to put their full trust in God
Those ones that were shown to prophet were from this kind not he need them
This is very common for gnostics
Besides u think that they really wanted miracle and after that they believe it

Not at all
They just wanted prophet sometimes to bring for them water and fertilized lands just because of their agricultural not believing in god
And secondly prophet was very kind
This kindness made him to do whatever he could to persuade them towards god

Besides god never punish someone except when he received a good sign or statement that can prove the message of God otherwise god won't do that
And some of the miracles are supposed in this way
By the way god is the only one who guide a human towards himself
We and prophets are mere means and miracle is another one

Sorry
My English isn't as good as you

 

[The_Fisher_King]

It still needs a living cell to work.

Salaam,

As I said, depending on your definition of life, it's happened already or it's yet to happen (but won't be long). It seems you want something a little more than where the science is currently to accept that synthetic life has been created. I don't think you'll have to wait too long.

Wassalaam

 

[Shad]

And I wanna read your response about dividing moon into two hemispheres

You can see what NASA has to say

http://sservi.nasa.gov/?question=evidence-moon-having-been-split-two

Also your pictures are of the Rima Ariadaeus which is only 340km long. IE it dosn't go around the Moon.

 

[zahra67]

A man comes out of a cave and claims he recieved a prophecy. Why do you believe him?

Yes, I understand he was successful in his wars. But does that make him more heaven-sent than any other successful general?

If you were around in the time of Muhammad, on what basis would you believe he's telling the truth?[/QUOThi.
if I were in the time of prophet mohammad peace be upon him and his progeny,
I requested evidence for his prophethood.

I asked him whats your message?
What do you have from God to us?

I recited the holy Quran and then asked devine guidance and help.
When I realized the truth, I convinsed to it.
Besides, the name of prophet Mohammad and his mission, mentioned in the previous devine books and
the content of the holy Quran helps us to understand its devinity.
For example:
God informs us about the previous prophets, destiny of
his followers who are received God's mercy and rescue and disbelievers that devine ponishment included them.
Also God informs us about the future,
the destiny of righteous and sinful people in after world,
and this reality that the future belongs to monotheism and righteous devine servant..
God all merciful says in chapter 21, verse 105 until 107 of the holy Quran:
And certainly We wrote in the Book after the reminder that [as for] the land, My righteous servants shall inherit it. Most surely in this is a message to a people who serve And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.E

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Sir
U are overlooking the general point and focus on something that I mentioned as an additional evidence of prophecy of prophet muhammad peace be upon him
The main point is what is miracle??

What was the general point? You asked what evidence I had that non-Muslims had reached the conclusion that the Earth orbits the Sun and I showed you.

A book claims that u can't bring like me although all of u can speak
If it's not a miracle so what is it??

Boasting. That claim only stands up to criticism as long as the Quran remains in Arabic. Translate it into another language and its alleged poetic beauty (I say 'alleged' because I don't know Arabic) falls to pieces. Have you read the book in English? It's repetitive and dire.

And what should god do to make u persuaded that a prophet is prophet???

Ensure said prophet can at least preach in a straight line. We're told that Allah is perfect and completely good yet he intends to punish us all with eternal torment for the finite crime of not being convinced he's worthy of worship. He creates a people in disbelief and allows his worshippers to triumph over them as punishment for the way he created them. That's not moral; that's sadistic.

I can promise those who deny this miracle if god reveals himself for them they say this is just an illusion and simply deny the existence of God

It's quite possible that your god exists. Even if he does I still wouldn't worship him because of how reprehensibly he is portrayed in his 'final religion'.

It's common that we know something but we deny it because it's consequences are painful or harmful for our passions

You really believe Dionysus exists even if you won't admit it. See? Anyone can do it.

 

[interminable]

What was the general point? You asked what evidence I had that non-Muslims had reached the conclusion that the Earth orbits the Sun and I showed you.




Boasting. That claim only stands up to criticism as long as the Quran remains in Arabic. Translate it into another language and its alleged poetic beauty (I say 'alleged' because I don't know Arabic) falls to pieces. Have you read the book in English? It's repetitive and dire.




Ensure said prophet can at least preach in a straight line. We're told that Allah is perfect and completely good yet he intends to punish us all with eternal torment for the finite crime of not being convinced he's worthy of worship. He creates a people in disbelief and allows his worshippers to triumph over them as punishment for the way he created them. That's not moral; that's sadistic.




It's quite possible that your god exists. Even if he does I still wouldn't worship him because of how reprehensibly he is portrayed in his 'final religion'.




You really believe Dionysus exists even if you won't admit it. See? Anyone can do it.

Sir
My native language is Persian and know Arabic as well and I thank God that he didn't send his book in English language as u mentioned because English has nothing to do with eloquence
Although if god wanted to send it in English and make it miracle Noone could bring like that
You're completely right that this book if translated isn't a miracle too
Because that isn't simply god's words they are translator's words


God won't punish anyone until show him the right path
Eternal punishment is for those who that if they die and come back again they will do those sins again and again
That's why god will punish them eternally
Needless to say that those who repent before die won't be punished so

By the way how could u reject causality

Even animals understand causality why human being should deny that

God will punish u because u apposed this bestowed grace and rejected it

Simply if u accept causality u need to find a creator for this univers


God does whatever he wants we are the only ones who will be asked about our deeds in hereafter not him

And god created all this creature for human being to use them to know god

This is final goal of creation
U know nothing probably about Shia mystery and it's great gnostic otherwise u would be able to find a way to right path

At the end I suggest u to discuss about these stuff from the beginning because most of my views depend on something else that already are proven just like u

 

[Augustus]

I don't know what are u denying???
It's as clear as day that the motions of sun and moon and earth are completely different
Something that u see in equator is completely illusion there is no horizon at all we think it's .
And when god says sun has its special orbit he means circulation with millions of stars around the center of milky way galaxy not that one u see everyday

And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing. (38) And the moon -- We have determined it by stations, till it returns like an aged palm-bough. (39) It behoves not the sun to overtake the moon, neither does the night outstrip the day, each swimming in a sky.

What about that verse relates to the milky way or anything other than basic observation? And where is the fixed resting place?

There are lots of reliable traditions that says division of moon was a miracle that heathens of mecca asked the prophet and pictures of the moon can evidently that moon was divided .

There are no pictures of the moon that show it was divided. That's like saying the grand canyon proves the earth was divided.

"Reliable traditions" don't trump basic sense. If the moon had been split lots of people would have seen it in Jerusalem, Damascus, Alexandria, etc.

In your opinion, why do you think nobody outside of the Islamic tradition noticed? Don't you think it is a bit strange that millions of people failed to see such a remarkable sight?

 

[interminable]

And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing. (38) And the moon -- We have determined it by stations, till it returns like an aged palm-bough. (39) It behoves not the sun to overtake the moon, neither does the night outstrip the day, each swimming in a sky.

What about that verse relates to the milky way or anything other than basic observation? And where is the fixed resting place?



There are no pictures of the moon that show it was divided. That's like saying the grand canyon proves the earth was divided.

"Reliable traditions" don't trump basic sense. If the moon had been split lots of people would have seen it in Jerusalem, Damascus, Alexandria, etc.

In your opinion, why do you think nobody outside of the Islamic tradition noticed? Don't you think it is a bit strange that millions of people failed to see such a remarkable sight?

Sir
Who told that this occurrence lasted for a long time
Consider it took less than 10 seconds
In this case should everybody around the world have seen this event simply not
Sometimes even occures eclipse but we don't notice
And maybe when this event happened somewhere like Greece was day not night because of the deferences of meridian

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Sir
Who told that this occurrence lasted for a long time
Consider it took less than 10 seconds

And every non-Muslim in Arabia blinked at the exact same time? Why are there no Pagan Arabian accounts for this 'miracle'? Why are the only mentions in history of the Islamic god splitting the moon in two from Muslims? Hmm....

 

[von bek]

The moon being split in half would be a lot more than a visible phenomenon. Its impact on our gravity and atmosphere (imagine the debris) would be impossible for any society then living to ignore.

 

[Acim]

Read through 6 pages looking for something close to what I would say, and didn't find it. If it appears after p. 6 and before my post, I apologize to OP and any poster that already covered this ground.

But I'm looking at question as "basis for trust" rather than focus on Muhammad. So, like any good debate thread on RF, I'd like that spelled out first.

I hear people routinely say "trust is earned." I get that, but I definitely dispute it. I see it as routinely given, freely. Very much in a cherry picked fashion. You can have immense special (earthly) love for another person and still cherry pick some of what they say (or do) and think they are at times not reliable with their own truth. Still love them, still have general trust in them, but not complete trust.

To me, the obvious basis is your own self. Or what others have said as whether or not the prophecy/message works for you.

Like if someone tells me (circa 1985) that by 2012 the U.S. will be under coast floods due to climate change, that strikes me as prophetic type stuff. I think they'll even believe scientific data backs their assertion up, trying to give it weighted authority. If that same person is part of a group that seeks to have huge hand in politics going forward, then come 2012, they better hope they are right, or it would make sense to lose trust in their ability to predict things. Seeing that I'm referencing something that's political and has essentially occurred, I'm a bit off topic, but kinda makes sense to me to add this to the topic of 'prophecy' and 'basis of trust.' More to the point though is the original message and how it relates specifically to me and what I take to be us/society. Even today, it is presented as 'you need to do more or be willing to do things differently.' I already trust that aspect of the message, but because of what is not being done by own people who believe this tripe (i.e. liberal POTUS uses Air Force One as if jet fuel has no impact on climate), then it strikes me as a message that isn't what I originally thought it was and isn't really about individual me. So, like most messages about 'what's to come' I think I would be wise to learn a bit more about why they might be conveying this. If mostly for political advantage of some sort, I'm taking that differently than spiritual messaging.

But however all that plays out, I don't think I can emphasize enough that trust is foremost always about own self. Then about own self in relation to the messenger or others. Then a little bit about the messenger, unless it deals with politics (foremost). Then I see all that in reverse, where it is less about trust in own self, then about self in relation to the messenger or others, then mostly about what does this group really want (politically) as a result of campaigning for this message. Chances are good they want a grant or ongoing funding related to whatever their message is about.

With spiritual stuff, if it is about what more needs to be done in this world, and that needs to start somewhere besides own self, I take it with a grain of salt. Likely barely relates to me, and to the degree it does, I'm probably already covered or willing to dispute it for what I see as highly misguided rationale.

Will just add that I do realize this thread is about Muhammad more than trust. Unless OP wishes to argue otherwise, I don't think it really is about trust or basis for trusting. If it is, I believe I've been clear in my response to that.