Basis of Belief

[mikkel_the_dane]

No I don't have to.
1. My girlfriend prefers coriander (subjective)
2. It is true that girlfriend likes coriander (descriptive).
Could we at least agree these are two different things?

Yes, but it doesn't make it objectively true. What makes it subjectively true, is that your girlfriend prefers coriander. It doesn't become objectively true, just because you can describe it.
The truth condition of "It is true that you girlfriend likes coriander" is that she subjectively likes.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You think the effects of having our head chopped off are just a matter of opinion?

Objective: (of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
Do you notice the "or". Do you understand what that means and how it influences this: personal feelings or opinions.

I accept that you subjectively want to live and don't consider it an opinion. I consider a core feeling and want in you and I don't treat it as just an opinion.
Feeling: an emotional state or reaction.
Now that is not rational as per this definition: based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings.
But I don't care that I am not rational all the time or that you are not rational all the time.

 

[AppieB]

Yes, but it doesn't make it objectively true. What makes it subjectively true, is that your girlfriend prefers coriander. It doesn't become objectively true, just because you can describe it.

It's a description of reality. Independent of what you or me might feel or prefer. It is true she likes coriander.

The truth condition of "It is true that you girlfriend likes coriander" is that she subjectively likes.

This sentence doesn't even make sense. This is utterly nonsense.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It's a description of reality. Independent of what you or me might feel or prefer. It is true she likes coriander.
...

But it is not independent of what she feels or prefers.

 

[Sheldon]

Yes, but it doesn't make it objectively true. What makes it subjectively true, is that your girlfriend prefers coriander. It doesn't become objectively true, just because you can describe it.
The truth condition of "It is true that you girlfriend likes coriander" is that she subjectively likes.

I disagree, her liking it is a subjective taste, but we have objective evidence that she likes coriander. Whether it is sufficient objective evidence is open to debate, but it's a fairly innocuous claim, and AppieB has observed her eating coriander regularly, that along with her claim to like the taste seems like sufficient objective evidence to me.

If she was claiming it had magic powers, or he was claiming she had magic powers after eating it, well then the objective evidence seems non-existent.

 

[Sheldon]

But it is not independent of what she feels or prefers.

Why would it need to be? Remember my example, if I claimed red was the best colour that is my subjective opinion, however it also objective evidence that I think that red is the best colour.

See this might be sufficient objective evidence for you to believe I think red is the best colour, but not that red is the best colour which is the subjective part.

Do you really not see the overlap of two separate claims there? Like someone claiming there is objective evidence that Jesus was an historical figure, but then mistakenly thinking this lends objective weight to the idea he was anything more than human.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Why would it need to be? Remember my example, if I claimed red was the best colour that is my subjective opinion, however it also objective evidence that I think that red is the best colour.

See this might be sufficient objective evidence for you to believe I think red is the best colour, but not that red is the best colour which is the subjective part.

Do you really not see the overlap of two separate claims there? Like someone claiming there is objective evidence that Jesus was an historical figure, but then mistakenly thinking this lends objective weight to the idea he was anything more than human.

I don't understand how something can be dependent and not dependent in the same sense. I.e. you think and don't think red is the best color to you. If it is objective, then it is not dependent on what you think, but it is dependent on what you think.
What is it you mean by objective. That I understand that you think red is the best color? Well, yes, I can choose to accept and state that you think that red is the best color.
So for me, it is objective that I do this: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations. Yes, that is objective as something I do, but what you do, is not objective.
It is an objective description on my part that you claim, that you subjectively think that red is the best color.

Sure if that is what you mean, then yes, we can call a part of it objective, but not all of it. What you do, is not objective, no matter how much it is objective to me.
And it still doesn't meet the conditions of this version:
of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers.
Definition of OBJECTIVE

So, no, for that version there is no objective evidence.

 

[Sheldon]

I don't understand how something can be dependent and not dependent in the same sense. I.e. you think and don't think red is the best color to you. If it is objective, then it is not dependent on what you think, but it is dependent on what you think.
What is it you mean by objective. That I understand that you think red is the best color? Well, yes, I can choose to accept and state that you think that red is the best color.
So for me, it is objective that I do this: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations. Yes, that is objective as something I do, but what you do, is not objective.
It is an objective description on my part that you claim, that you subjectively think that red is the best color.

Sure if that is what you mean, then yes, we can call a part of it objective, but not all of it. What you do, is not objective, no matter how much it is objective to me.
And it still doesn't meet the conditions of this version:
of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers.
Definition of OBJECTIVE

So, no, for that version there is no objective evidence.

You have missed the point again, I will try bullet points.

1. if I believe red is the best colour - that is just a subjective opinion
2. If I and others tell you I believe red is the best colour, I own a red car, wear red clothes, paint my house red etc etc etc - that is objective evidence only that I believe red is the best colour.

See the difference?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You have missed the point again, I will try bullet points.

1. if I believe red is the best colour - that is just a subjective opinion
2. If I and others tell you I believe red is the best colour, I own a red car, wear red clothes, paint my house red etc etc etc - that is objective evidence only that I believe red is the best colour.

See the difference?

No for the bold one for this definition of objective: of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers.
It is not objective, because it is not independent of individual thought. In this case yours.

I trust you that you are honest and that you believe red is the best color. But that is not objective evidence. Whether another kind of evidence applies is still up for debate

 

[Sheldon]

No for the bold one for this definition of objective: of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers.
It is not objective, because it is not independent of individual thought. In this case yours.

I trust you that you are honest and that you believe red is the best color. But that is not objective evidence. Whether another kind of evidence applies is still up for debate

The definition of objective seems to have changed? All you've done is use semantics to make it an absolute. I suppose it make you happy to live in a black or white kind of existence, but I don't see it like that, that's why I always preface a request for objective evidence with the word sufficient, as sufficient would be conditional on the claim.

The objective evidence for my liking red in the hypothetical I described would be sufficient to make the assertion Sheldon likes red most, objectively true, separately from my own claim it is better than any other colour.

Objective
Adjective
1. not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

My opinion about red being the best colour would not qualify, me painting my house red, wearing red, often telling people I like red, would qualify as objective evidence that I liked red more than any other colour.

The claim that red is the best colour is subjective.

The assertion Sheldon thinks red is the best colour is objective, as there is sufficient objective evidence for it.

 

[AppieB]

I don't understand how something can be dependent and not dependent in the same sense.

Because it's not in the same sense.
You are confusing the preference (1) with the fact about the person (2).

We already agreed that the following 2 statements are two different things:
1. Liking the taste of coriander
2. It is true my girlfriend likes coriander

Please answer this question: Is it true that human beings have preferences?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The definition of objective seems to have changed? All you've done is use semantics to make it an absolute. I suppose it make you happy to live in a black or white kind of existence, but I don't see it like that, that's why I always preface a request for objective evidence with the word sufficient, as sufficient would be conditional on the claim.

The objective evidence for my liking red in the hypothetical I described would be sufficient to make the assertion Sheldon likes red most, objectively true, separately from my own claim it is better than any other colour.

Objective
Adjective
1. not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

My opinion about red being the best colour would not qualify, me painting my house red, wearing red, often telling people I like red, would qualify as objective evidence that I liked red more than any other colour.

The claim that red is the best colour is subjective.

The assertion Sheldon thinks red is the best colour is objective, as there is sufficient objective evidence for it.

Well, what is atheism, Sheldon?
So we disagree. I like AppieB's better.

Because it's not in the same sense.
You are confusing the preference (1) with the fact about the person (2).

We already agreed that the following 2 statements are two different things:
1. Liking the taste of coriander
2. It is true my girlfriend likes coriander

Please answer this question: Is it true that human beings have preferences?

Well, yes, That is true.

 

[Sheldon]

So we disagree. I like AppieB's better

His was a real example, mine a hypothetical, they explain the same point, that you just agreed with again. That when someone holds a purely subjective preference, we can still have objective evidence that they hold that preference.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

His was a real example, mine a hypothetical, they explain the same point, that you just agreed with again. That when someone holds a purely subjective preference, we can still have objective evidence that they hold that preference.

No, he said true. You said objective. Those are not the same.

 

[Sheldon]

No, he said true. You said objective. Those are not the same.

It's true because there is objective evidence, his girlfriend's preference for coriander is not based solely on anyone's subjective opinion.

 

[AppieB]

Well, yes, That is true.

Ok, next question:
Is it true that brown is a nice color?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Ok, next question:
Is it true that brown is a nice color?

By standard correspondence theory of truth and application of how words work, this one is neither true or false as it is always a case of nice to somebody. So here is another variant:
It is true that brown is a nice color to someone, if that someone finds brown to be a nice color.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It's true because there is objective evidence, his girlfriend's preference for coriander is not based solely on anyone's subjective opinion.

Well, we disagree.

 

[AppieB]

By standard correspondence theory of truth and application of how words work, this one is neither true or false as it is always a case of nice to somebody. So here is another variant:
It is true that brown is a nice color to someone, if that someone finds brown to be a nice color.

Ok.
We agree that's it's true that human beings have preferences. Would you call that a descriptive statement?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Ok.
We agree that's it's true that human beings have preferences. Would you call that a descriptive statement?

Yes.