Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Right, both statements contain an equal amount of correctness - which is none.
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Battle of the monotheistic religions
- Thread starter haltensie
- Start date
Right, both statements contain an equal amount of correctness - which is none.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
To me, and infinite creator, will and can touch each individual in a unique way. Which means each person's understanding of God will be unique to themselves. Some aspects can be shared among others, but there will always be that something in your heart about God that is unique to only you.
Jollybear
Hey
Itwillend
That is an interesting point. I don’t agree or disagree with it yet. But I do have a question for it. Could you give me an example of God being unique to every individual? If you mean like, unique but not contradictory, I would agree, If you mean unique as in it could contradict what someone else sees about God, i would have to disagree. But what exactly do you mean? Could you give an example?
That is an interesting point. I don’t agree or disagree with it yet. But I do have a question for it. Could you give me an example of God being unique to every individual? If you mean like, unique but not contradictory, I would agree, If you mean unique as in it could contradict what someone else sees about God, i would have to disagree. But what exactly do you mean? Could you give an example?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
If Mormonism is right, pretty much nobody goes to Hell.
Jollybear
Hey
Katzpur
Actually, that is not entirely true according to a link I have looked at about mormons. I tried to post the link, but I cannot UNTIL I do 15 posts or more.
Yes, all will eventually be saved according to mormons, but many will still go to hell if mormons are right, but it’s a temporal hell and there is suffering involved.
However, there are some views out there who say that nobody will go to hell, all will go to heaven. Well, that just begs the question, one has to be SURE about that don’t they? And therefore SURE that Muslim, Christianity, Mormons, or Jews or any other is WRONG about the afterlife of suffering or hell and that the view that all go to heaven is right. Therefore, it’s an issue that “matters” ALLOT.
Wouldn’t it? To say it don’t matter would be like saying “lets gamble it and see if we get it right”. I mean to gamble such a thing like that would not be wise, the issue is to grave and to sever to not be “SURE” about.
Actually, that is not entirely true according to a link I have looked at about mormons. I tried to post the link, but I cannot UNTIL I do 15 posts or more.
Yes, all will eventually be saved according to mormons, but many will still go to hell if mormons are right, but it’s a temporal hell and there is suffering involved.
However, there are some views out there who say that nobody will go to hell, all will go to heaven. Well, that just begs the question, one has to be SURE about that don’t they? And therefore SURE that Muslim, Christianity, Mormons, or Jews or any other is WRONG about the afterlife of suffering or hell and that the view that all go to heaven is right. Therefore, it’s an issue that “matters” ALLOT.
Wouldn’t it? To say it don’t matter would be like saying “lets gamble it and see if we get it right”. I mean to gamble such a thing like that would not be wise, the issue is to grave and to sever to not be “SURE” about.
Luminous
non-existential luminary
all those religions you mention are not monotheism they are monolatrists. the only true monotheisms are Pastafarianism(no angels or demons) and Discordianism(only one supernatural being.) the religion Perhaps(zoroastrianism) is monolatrists too. infact, it might even be considered "bitheistic".
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Either that, or you could just recognize that I know my religion and can provide as reliable information on it as any website you might stumble upon.
I think that when most people (at least people of Abrahamic faiths) think of Hell, they are thinking in terms of eternal torment. You're right, though, we do believe that people who will not accept Jesus Christ's willingness to pay the price for their sins, will have to pay that price themselves. Even that statement, though, is an oversimplification of what we really believe.
Of course, it matters a lot, but how can one be sure? To me, the appeal of Mormonism is that the final curtain doesn't fall at death. As far as I'm concerned, it would be grossly unjust for God to allow our choices during 70 or 80 years of mortality to determine our fate for eternity, particularly when billions have lived in a time and place where Christianity was even an option. And since I have no qualms about stating that God is just, I can easily accept the LDS doctrine of what happens to us during the period of time after death but before the final judgment takes place. As a matter of fact, it's really the only option I've yet to consider that makes any sense to me.
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Metempsychosis
Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
Yes. I'm saying it's the same thing.
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
What if there is no beginning, just one eternal round?
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
Hi Haltensie! Wow! Zeroastrian! That's awesome! I read about it in high school and was fascinated by it. I thought it was long gone or something. I'd be happy to share my views but I would love to learn more about Zeroastrianism!
I believe in God. (From now on, feel free to insert the words "I believe" in front of each statement). He is our Father. We are brothers and sisters and all children of God. He loves us greatly (I think you are aware of this). If we seek him, we can find peace, light, strength, and love. If we knew nothing about God, we would have no way of coming to know him. We would know nothing about him if he didn't reveal himself to us in some way. So God reveals himself to prophets, so they can teach us about him and how to come to him. By heeding the words of the prophets, we can come to have the same knowledge of God that they have. All throughout history God has called prophets to help his children come to know him. When people follow the prophets, they grow closer to God. A wonderful example of this is the city of Enoch. The people became so righteous that there was no sin among them. When people reject the teachings of prophets, they reject the person who sent them, and end up distancing themselves from God. When everyone rejects the word of God spoken by prophets, God withdraws them. The people are left to themselves to figure things out the best they can. Over time, truth is lost. Doctrines are changed, mistakes are made, incorrect interpretations arise and the people must do the best that they can. In order to restore the complete truth to the earth, God must call another prophet. Many prophets have been called throughout history. Abraham was a great prophet. Moses was a great prophet. Adam was the first prophet. I think Muhammad was a prophet (I would like to have met him and determined for myself. IMO, what's left of his legacy is inconclusive). I don't know much about Zeroaster, but from what I do, I highly suspect that he was a prophet. The most recent prophet called upon to restore God's truth was Joseph Smith. He was born in the 1800's and we still have a wealth of his revelations from God. I believe that it is very simple to tell if he was a true prophet or not. What was his message? Apply it in your life. If Joseph Smith is a true prophet, then as you apply his teachings, you will draw nearer to God. And as you draw closer to God, you will begin to see that what Joseph really did reveal the will of God. Jesus Christ taught concerning prophets:
The Book of Mormon is one of the fruits of the prophet Joseph Smith. If the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith was a true prophet. If Joseph Smith was a true prophet, God lives, loves us and still speaks to us today. If The Book of Mormon is true, The Bible is true and Jesus Christ is the Son of God and our redeemer. I hope you will study the Book of Mormon to determine it's validity. It has led me to God.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
The parts that are unique and not contradictory are of God, the parts that do contradict from individual to individual would be the gaps men and women fill in for themselves.
Example, Love is unique to each human, but different in someways, Love is of God.
However, tithing would be something that we fill in the gaps with our own imaginations, and it causes divisions among people who claim to be with God. This is not of God.
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Greetings!
You overlook the fact that the Baha'i Faith is only 166 years old!
And to answer your question, although I can't speak for Zoroastrians, as to Baha'is: while some Baha'is (of course) come from Baha'i families, the vast majority of Baha'is have found the Faith individually via personal investigation and examination!
Best regards!
Bruce
You overlook the fact that the Baha'i Faith is only 166 years old!
And to answer your question, although I can't speak for Zoroastrians, as to Baha'is: while some Baha'is (of course) come from Baha'i families, the vast majority of Baha'is have found the Faith individually via personal investigation and examination!
Best regards!
Bruce
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Greetings.
Not really, no.
While many Baha'is from many countries have indeed moved to other countries to teach the Faith (what we call "pioneering"), the fact remains that the Baha'i Faith is still the largest minority religion in Iran, thus second only to Islam!
So plenty of us remain there.
Peace,
Bruce
[Zoroastrians and Baha'is] survived by fleeing their homeland.
Not really, no.
While many Baha'is from many countries have indeed moved to other countries to teach the Faith (what we call "pioneering"), the fact remains that the Baha'i Faith is still the largest minority religion in Iran, thus second only to Islam!
So plenty of us remain there.
Peace,
Bruce
MSizer
MSizer
May I have your evidence for this claim please?
It seems to me that if he is not contained in the universe, we meek humans enslaved by our limited senses could not know about him. We barely even know what's outside our solar system, let alone whether anything is "outside of the universe".
Jollybear
Hey
Katzpur
Oh I definitely believe you that you know about your own religion, by all means. If you say that there is some branch of Mormonism that believes no one goes to hell, I will believe you. All I was saying is that according to this website I stumbled upon that was Mormon, they said that they believed that hell existed but was temporal.
So a person who dies without accepting Christ, where do they go according to your belief? Or what happens?
I’ll admit that sounds nice to believe, I would not want people being tormented in hell forever as long as they TURNED from there sinful ways.
I would have to part with you here because I don’t see how 70-80 years is not enough time to make it right with God? Also the second thing you said does not apply in my belief, for I believe that God holds people accountable not to what they do not know, but to how much light or knowledge they do know. Paul himself in the New Testament confirms this in Romans 2:12-16 and Romans 1:20 and Jesus confirms this as well in Luke 12:47-48 .
I will tell you my position on this, it’s not the traditional “once you’re in hell, there is no hope” position and it’s also not your position either, that all will get out of hell eventually, or none will go there at all. My position is that those that go to hell, they are there because they walked in the cycle of sin, and once there in hell, that cycle of sin grips them even stronger, it does not get weaker, thus easy to get out of hell, so since it gets stronger, it is then very hard to get out of hell for those who are in that place. It’s possible to get out and break the grip of the cycle of sin, but VERY hard. In other words, it’s not WORTH going there, or gambling anything as I’m sure you agree.
Remember the rich man in hell that Jesus talked about? While he was in hell he was arguing with Abraham. You would think that he would have “learned” his lesson by now, right? Well wrong, he was still arguing with God inspired words spoken by Abraham to him. He still was not in submission to God. That is why I believe it was hard for him to get out, he was thinking too much about his pain, that is himself, which he always did in his lifetime to.
Anti-religion
Right it’s kind of like the air outside my house. Air is everywhere outside my house and it’s everywhere inside my house, but the air is not my house.
Willamena
So when I say that God fills all outside everything and fills all inside everything but is not everything itself, you disagree with that and equate that to be the same as God being everything? May I ask why? I am not seeing what you’re seeing here. If a parent has a child, the child is a part of the parent, but is the child the actual parent? The answer is obviously no, right?
Itwillend
So if two people are saying two different things, completely in contradiction to one another (one says tithing is good, another says it’s bad), are you saying they both can be right? Are you promoting relativism? Do I misunderstand?
MSizer
When I said he is not contained in the universe, I should have clarified, but I’ll do it here. I meant to say he is not ONLY INSIDE the universe he is inside the universe AND outside it. So therefore, we can know him then.
Any questions?
Oh I definitely believe you that you know about your own religion, by all means. If you say that there is some branch of Mormonism that believes no one goes to hell, I will believe you. All I was saying is that according to this website I stumbled upon that was Mormon, they said that they believed that hell existed but was temporal.
So a person who dies without accepting Christ, where do they go according to your belief? Or what happens?
I’ll admit that sounds nice to believe, I would not want people being tormented in hell forever as long as they TURNED from there sinful ways.
I would have to part with you here because I don’t see how 70-80 years is not enough time to make it right with God? Also the second thing you said does not apply in my belief, for I believe that God holds people accountable not to what they do not know, but to how much light or knowledge they do know. Paul himself in the New Testament confirms this in Romans 2:12-16 and Romans 1:20 and Jesus confirms this as well in Luke 12:47-48 .
I will tell you my position on this, it’s not the traditional “once you’re in hell, there is no hope” position and it’s also not your position either, that all will get out of hell eventually, or none will go there at all. My position is that those that go to hell, they are there because they walked in the cycle of sin, and once there in hell, that cycle of sin grips them even stronger, it does not get weaker, thus easy to get out of hell, so since it gets stronger, it is then very hard to get out of hell for those who are in that place. It’s possible to get out and break the grip of the cycle of sin, but VERY hard. In other words, it’s not WORTH going there, or gambling anything as I’m sure you agree.
Remember the rich man in hell that Jesus talked about? While he was in hell he was arguing with Abraham. You would think that he would have “learned” his lesson by now, right? Well wrong, he was still arguing with God inspired words spoken by Abraham to him. He still was not in submission to God. That is why I believe it was hard for him to get out, he was thinking too much about his pain, that is himself, which he always did in his lifetime to.
Anti-religion
Right it’s kind of like the air outside my house. Air is everywhere outside my house and it’s everywhere inside my house, but the air is not my house.
Willamena
So when I say that God fills all outside everything and fills all inside everything but is not everything itself, you disagree with that and equate that to be the same as God being everything? May I ask why? I am not seeing what you’re seeing here. If a parent has a child, the child is a part of the parent, but is the child the actual parent? The answer is obviously no, right?
Itwillend
So if two people are saying two different things, completely in contradiction to one another (one says tithing is good, another says it’s bad), are you saying they both can be right? Are you promoting relativism? Do I misunderstand?
MSizer
When I said he is not contained in the universe, I should have clarified, but I’ll do it here. I meant to say he is not ONLY INSIDE the universe he is inside the universe AND outside it. So therefore, we can know him then.
Any questions?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
And you're right. We do believe in Hell. We just don't hold to the traditional Christian concept of a lake of fire, an place of eternal torment where everyone who did not live his or her life as a Christian is doomed to spend eternity. We actually don't even use the word "Hell" as often as most Christians do, probably because of the way in which we interpret it and because, to us, it actually has two meanings, depending on the context in which it is used.
1. Hell = the Spirit Prison
2. Hell = Outer Darkness
I actually started a thread on this topic several years ago. It was called The LDS Doctrine of the Afterlife. Our beliefs are explained there in a 3-part post.
Briefly, we believe that the spirits of the righteous (regardless of religious affiliation) will be received into a state of "Paradise" after death, and that the spirits of the wicked into a "Spirit Prison." It is within this spirit realm where we await the resurrection of our physical bodies and the final judgment. We believe that the human spirit is an eternal and cognizant entity that continues, even when separated from the physical body at death, to have the ability to learn and grow, to become aware of truths it did not know during mortality and to make choices and commitments. According to our doctrine, the spirits of the righteous are (and have been since Christ visited the Spirit Prison after His death) spreading the gospel to the wicked and that those who recognize His Atonement and repent of their sins, will move from a state of mental torment and anguish (the "Hell" that is the "Spirit Prison") and move to a state of peace and rest (i.e. "Paradise"). By the time of Christ's Second Coming, all will have had the opportunity to hear of Jesus Christ, to really understand what His sacrifice really has the power to do for them, and make a decision as to whether or not to accept it. Those who do that will be resurrected and we welcomed into Heaven. Those who, having been given that chance, deny His gift of redemption will spend the thousand year Millennium paying the price for their own sins, i.e. suffering from the guilt they brought upon themselves by their sins. At the end of the thousand years, they too will be permitted to enter Heaven, but will receive a lesser degree of glory than those who accepted Christ, either during mortality or while awaiting the resurrection. In the end, even they will come to acknowledge that Jesus was the one who could have made it unnecessary for them to have to endure their thousand year punishment, but their pride and willful rejection of Him will have cost them a lot of joy.
There will be a few -- and I do mean a very small number -- of people who have been blessed with a perfect knowledge of who the Father and the Son are and who, for reasons I cannot even begin to comprehend, deny them. These are the people known as "Sons of Perdition." They, by denying God under these conditions, are the ones the Bible says have committed blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Their sin is the one that is referred to in the scriptures as "unforgivable." I don't believe (most Latter-day Saints would agree with me, I think) that there have been all that many people who have lived upon this earth who are in that position. Peter, James, and John, I suppose -- had they denied that Jesus Christ was the Son of God in the face of all the evidence they saw -- might have been in a position to commit the unforgivable sin. They didn't, of course. I use them only as an example of someone who could have done. Anyway, those few individuals who become "Sons of Perdition" will spend eternity in the "Hell" we Latter-day Saints more often call "Outer Darkness." It is a place where Satan and those cast out of Heaven with him will also dwell. It will truly be "Hell" but, as one LDS author one put it, (and this is his interpretation rather than an official statement of doctrine), "Such like likely be few. Hell, in the end, will be a tiny, forgotten corner of the universe. The great God will find no solace in the path these few have chosen. They were his children. Yet all has been offered: light, strength, repentance, help, knowledge, and a grace sufficient to cover all sins should each of them merely have sought forgiveness and a better way. They simply weren't interested. They simply weren't interested. None of them would be happy in heaven, anyway, and perhaps their self-selected misery is their only reward for having tried mortality."
Well, of course it sounds nice. God IS nice. He is loving and merciful and He offers His children every possible chance to repent. Thank God for a God who really does believe in repentance!
How does one "make it right with God"? Must one be a Christian to make it right with God? If so, 70 or 80 years living today in North Korea, for instance, probably wouldn't be enough time. And in other periods of time (go back to second or third century China or to the eighth or ninth century in the middle of the African jungle), a person's chances of becoming a Christian would be completely nil. Christianity wasn't exactly a world religion in its infancy.
Actually, I agree with you that God won't hold people accountable for what they haven't been taught. I just believe that He has a plan that is going to enable them to be taught. It may not be until they are in the Spirit World awaiting the resurrection, but they will have the ability to learn what they need to know in order to make the decisions they need to make to receive the blessings God has in store for them. How could God punish someone for not accepting Jesus Christ if that person had never heard of Jesus Christ? On the other hand, how could God bless someone for being faithful to Christ's teachings if that person didn't know what Jesus taught?
I do agree, but in order to really look at the "cycle of sin" and "Hell" objectively, you've got to recognize that we really don't all have the same advantages. Some kid growing up in a society where he is never exposed to much of anything but sin is likely going to find himself in that cycle before he even has a chance to make a choice to take a different path. I'm not trying to minimize the dangers of choosing a life of depravity and evil. There are terrible influences everywhere we look and we have to realize how easily we can be sucked in, little by little, to the cycle of sin you've mentioned. I'm just looking at the picture from a different angle and thinking that we are making a huge mistake when we try to oversimplify the situation.
I totally agree.
Jollybear
Hey
Katzpur
When Jesus talked about the rich man in hell, it says he was in torments in a flame. How do you interpret that “flame”? And he asked for a drop of water, how do you interpret that drop of water? Also the book of revelation talks about the “lake of fire” and those that are thrown in will be in “torments forever and ever”. How do you interpret this?
Also how do I account for when the bible speaks of hell as in the “outer darkness”? Like how can hell be fire and darkness at the same time? Well two ways this can happen, lots of fire can bring lots of smoke, the smoke brings darkness. Plus the second way is the hottest flame is not orange and it’s not blue (hotter than the orange) but it’s INVISIBLE. So a invisible flame will give off no light, thus “the outer darkness”. But then again, this can be a twofold type of flame that could be an emotional torment, because I do not see how a none physical entity (our conscious spirit) can be touched by a physical flame. But then again, perhaps the hottest flame, which is invisible, can touch the spirit, since the spirit is invisible.
That is a interesting point. I did hear another view that says that when Jesus was put to death in the body but made alive in the spirit through which he preached to the spirits in prison back from Noah’s day, that this did not mean Jesus was giving them another chance to repent, but basically proclaiming to them what they lost out on. Because how do we explain the parts in scripture that say “torments forever” how do you deal with the word “forever”?
I also believe that the “righteous” who did not hear of Christ, but obeyed in all honesty the light or knowledge they have received that they will have a chance to accept Christ during the thousand year reign. I also believe that babies, who died, will be given the chance to accept or reject Christ during this thousand year reign.
I differ with you here slightly. I believe that those who have more knowledge of God, but reject it, will not just go to hell, but go to the DEPTHS of hell, the deepest darkness of suffering. While those who received little knowledge, and still rejected it, they will go to hell, but not go to the greatest amount of darkness or suffering. Just as Jesus said, those who been given much, and reject, will be beaten with many blows, but those who have been given little and reject it, will be beaten with few blows.
The reason I say that once a person is in hell I don’t go with the traditional view that says that there is no hope is because God is a God of mercy and hope, I can’t deny that. But the reason I also say it’s hard for them to get out of hell, is because in hell, the cycle of sin grips them more. Here is what I mean by that: when someone is in hell, they are suffering; the first thing they want is to get out of there. So, suppose they saw an angel up ahead, they cry out “please, get me out of here!” the angel says “wait, you deserve to be here because of your sins” the sinner responds “no, no, please, let me explain, I was an ok person, I did this and that good for some people”. Angel responds “I see your still not ready to get out of here, you are still self righteous”. Then the sinner says “ok, ok, you’re right then, I did wrong at times in my life, even a lot of times, now please GET ME OUT OF HERE!” Angel responds “you’re just saying that because your first explanation was not good enough for me, so now you lie to me so I will get you out, your good sounding response that is motivated with lies, is selfishness, and thus not repentance, therefore, you will remain here UNTIL you LOSE your selfish ways”.
That is why I say it is HARD to get out of hell. Up here on earth people are prone to selfishness and lies and sin, but down there, it will be magnified, therefore harder to break out of that evil cycle, although it is not impossible to break it.
When Jesus talked about the rich man in hell, it says he was in torments in a flame. How do you interpret that “flame”? And he asked for a drop of water, how do you interpret that drop of water? Also the book of revelation talks about the “lake of fire” and those that are thrown in will be in “torments forever and ever”. How do you interpret this?
Also how do I account for when the bible speaks of hell as in the “outer darkness”? Like how can hell be fire and darkness at the same time? Well two ways this can happen, lots of fire can bring lots of smoke, the smoke brings darkness. Plus the second way is the hottest flame is not orange and it’s not blue (hotter than the orange) but it’s INVISIBLE. So a invisible flame will give off no light, thus “the outer darkness”. But then again, this can be a twofold type of flame that could be an emotional torment, because I do not see how a none physical entity (our conscious spirit) can be touched by a physical flame. But then again, perhaps the hottest flame, which is invisible, can touch the spirit, since the spirit is invisible.
That is a interesting point. I did hear another view that says that when Jesus was put to death in the body but made alive in the spirit through which he preached to the spirits in prison back from Noah’s day, that this did not mean Jesus was giving them another chance to repent, but basically proclaiming to them what they lost out on. Because how do we explain the parts in scripture that say “torments forever” how do you deal with the word “forever”?
I also believe that the “righteous” who did not hear of Christ, but obeyed in all honesty the light or knowledge they have received that they will have a chance to accept Christ during the thousand year reign. I also believe that babies, who died, will be given the chance to accept or reject Christ during this thousand year reign.
I differ with you here slightly. I believe that those who have more knowledge of God, but reject it, will not just go to hell, but go to the DEPTHS of hell, the deepest darkness of suffering. While those who received little knowledge, and still rejected it, they will go to hell, but not go to the greatest amount of darkness or suffering. Just as Jesus said, those who been given much, and reject, will be beaten with many blows, but those who have been given little and reject it, will be beaten with few blows.
The reason I say that once a person is in hell I don’t go with the traditional view that says that there is no hope is because God is a God of mercy and hope, I can’t deny that. But the reason I also say it’s hard for them to get out of hell, is because in hell, the cycle of sin grips them more. Here is what I mean by that: when someone is in hell, they are suffering; the first thing they want is to get out of there. So, suppose they saw an angel up ahead, they cry out “please, get me out of here!” the angel says “wait, you deserve to be here because of your sins” the sinner responds “no, no, please, let me explain, I was an ok person, I did this and that good for some people”. Angel responds “I see your still not ready to get out of here, you are still self righteous”. Then the sinner says “ok, ok, you’re right then, I did wrong at times in my life, even a lot of times, now please GET ME OUT OF HERE!” Angel responds “you’re just saying that because your first explanation was not good enough for me, so now you lie to me so I will get you out, your good sounding response that is motivated with lies, is selfishness, and thus not repentance, therefore, you will remain here UNTIL you LOSE your selfish ways”.
That is why I say it is HARD to get out of hell. Up here on earth people are prone to selfishness and lies and sin, but down there, it will be magnified, therefore harder to break out of that evil cycle, although it is not impossible to break it.