Beaten to death with a brick for opposing arranged marriage

[waitasec]

If religion was prone to making people pedophiliac, why is there such a huge number of 'pedophiliac charged' people caught in child molestation and pedophilia in non-muslims states?
I already know what auto and england would say to this, but since they hold a religion responsible for mayhem in the world, how do they explain the mayhem figures without religion? pure incidence/ desire exploration?

here are my 2 pence...
religion is supposed to do what? heal, bring peace and harmony?
FAIL :yes:

human right organizations came from what?

the age of enlightenment
The "Enlightenment" was not a single movement or school of thought, for these philosophies were often mutually contradictory or divergent. The Enlightenment was less a set of ideas than it was a set of values. At its core was a critical questioning of traditional institutions, customs, and morals, and a strong belief in rationality and science
~wiki

 

[Bismillah]

:biglaugh:If any of you could make an actual argument as to why Islam condones it you would have a point. Go ahead and take a gander, otherwise sit down.

 

[Badran]

The difference is that here in the U.S., these people are criminals. What they do is against the law, and the government is trying to lock them up. In Muslim countries, selling your 10-year old daughter to an old man for him to marry and have sex with is allowed and accepted.

I'm not sure if thats true. As far as i know many countries have set the age of marriage from 16-18. If thats true those people are going against the law, and they are criminals. As far as socially accepted, we already demonstrated in this thread that not all Muslims accept this behavior, even including some of the people who agree or accept Aisha's marriage story.

We also clarified that consent is essential in marriage according to Islam. So just because in Yemen some ignorant scholars are arguing this, doesn't mean its generally accepted in Muslim countries, or accepted by all or most Muslims.

 

[Bismillah]

Badran I just want to see one of them construct a reasonable argument that would ever sanction a child marriage from Islam's point of view. Really, according to them it shouldn't be too hard!

 

[Autodidact]

:biglaugh:If any of you could make an actual argument as to why Islam condones it you would have a point. Go ahead and take a gander, otherwise sit down.

Because the perfect man, Islam's role model, is believed by most Muslims to have married a child in an arranged marriage.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm not sure if thats true. As far as i know many countries have set the age of marriage from 16-18. If thats true those people are going against the law, and they are criminals. As far as socially accepted, we already demonstrated in this thread that not all Muslims accept this behavior, even including some of the people who agree or accept Aisha's marriage story.

We also clarified that consent is essential in marriage according to Islam. So just because in Yemen some ignorant scholars are arguing this, doesn't mean its generally accepted in Muslim countries, or accepted by all or most Muslims.

Isn't "ignorant scholar" an oxymoron. Aren't there some standards to become an Imam? I thought Islam was based on a tradition of scholarship, of rigorous study of the quran and hadith, and not just anyone could set themselves up as an Imam. Am I wrong?

 

[Badran]

Badran I just want to see one of them construct a reasonable argument that would ever sanction a child marriage from Islam's point of view. Really, according to them it shouldn't be too hard!

I can't see how its possible to justify this from Islam's point of view neither. You'd have to be deliberately stupid like the scholar in the article posted earlier who said that even though the child shouldn't stay with her husband, the marriage is still valid. Completely ignoring the obvious, that consent haven't been established due to the girl's young age.

 

[Bismillah]

Because the perfect man, Islam's role model, is believed by most Muslims to have married a child in an arranged marriage.

This isn't even worth addressing. I have refuted it numerous times and every time you turn tail and ignore it.

 

[Autodidact]

First, it is amply clear that the classical shari'a among all Sunni schools of thought sanctions marriage at puberty, which is assumed to be age nine for girls. Some schools require the girl's consent, some do not, some allow the father to contract the marriage before nine but then give the girl an opportunity to repudiate the contract before nine (known as khiyar al bulugh, or the option at puberty), but I'm not sure precisely what all of this is about when you are talking about a nine year old in our times.
from here.

Do you disagree, or do you consider a 9-year old girl old enough to be married?

 

[Badran]

Isn't "ignorant scholar" an oxymoron. Aren't there some standards to become an Imam? I thought Islam was based on a tradition of scholarship, of rigorous study of the quran and hadith, and not just anyone could set themselves up as an Imam. Am I wrong?

Unfortunately you're wrong. Scholars according to the studies they make are indeed supposed to be so, and they do make such studies. But, as everybody else occupying any other job, some of them are stupid, ignorant, stubborn, dishonest and make all kinds of mistakes and issue all kinds of stuff that is viewed by many Muslims as plain wrong.

 

[Autodidact]

This isn't even worth addressing. I have refuted it numerous times and every time you turn tail and ignore it.

Most Muslims don't believe this? Is that your position?

 

[beenie]

People can make excuses for Child Marriage all they like,the fact is its wrong and disgusting,read this and weep:

It was every little girl's dream; she was to get a new dress, jewellery, sweets and a party for all her friends.

What 10-year-old Aisha did not know was that after the wedding party she would have to leave school, move to a village far from her parents' home, cook and clean all day, and have sex with her older husband.

"He took out a special sheet and laid me down on it," Aisha told IRIN, wringing her small plump hands. "After it, I started bleeding. It was so painful that I was crying and shouting, and since then I have seen him as death."

Drugged and beaten

After a week of fighting off her husband every night, Aisha's father was called. He had received 200,000 Yemeni Rial ($1,000) for his daughter in 'shart', a Yemeni dowry, which he could not pay back.

"My Dad made a cup of tea and put some pills in it, which he gave me. The pills made me feel dizzy," said Aisha. "My Dad told me to sleep with my husband, or he would kill me, but I refused."

Instead Aisha broke a glass bottle over her head in a desperate attempt to stay awake. "My Dad hit me badly. I was bleeding from my mouth and nose," she said.

After spending a few months in her husband's home, where she said he would regularly drug her and beat her, Aisha managed to escape. Now, two years later, aged 12, she is unable to divorce him.

source The Women of Islam: CHILD MARRIAGE and other stories from the news

Child Marriage is also ripe in India,still thereis no excuse:

Rukhmabai, victim of child marriage who opposed the practice.

"I am one of those unfortunate Hindu women whose hard lot is to suffer the unnameable miseries entailed by the custom of early marriage. This wicked practice of child marriage has destroyed the happiness of my life. It comes between me and the things which I prize above all others - study and mental cultivation. Without the least fault of mine I am doomed to seclusion; every aspiration of mine to rise above my ignorant sisters is looked down upon with suspicion and is interpreted in the most uncharitable manner."

Child BRIDES OF INDIAhttp://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2214/stories/20050715006200400.htm

umm, that second article is about HINDUS. certainly Islam didn't convince Hindus to have child brides. this brings home the argument that child brides is a CULTURAL phenomenon.

It may be backward religious cultural practices but there can be no excuse for Child Marriage and as we have seen in places like Yemen it is backed by religion.

i agree; marrying off 10 year olds is disgusting; backing it with religion is revolting, and it shouldn't happen.

Sorry I was basing my assumption on the Qur'an.

as we do, but the problem is that there are so many Muslims who like to disregard the Qur'an and do icky cultural stuff instead.

 

[Bismillah]

My position is simple, I don't understand how someone can misunderstand it. Go back to my post and reread what I said. If you think I am wrong, show me where and how I am wrong. Show me that Islam goes against my position.

 

[beenie]

First, it is amply clear that the classical shari'a among all Sunni schools of thought sanctions marriage at puberty, which is assumed to be age nine for girls. Some schools require the girl's consent, some do not, some allow the father to contract the marriage before nine but then give the girl an opportunity to repudiate the contract before nine (known as khiyar al bulugh, or the option at puberty), but I'm not sure precisely what all of this is about when you are talking about a nine year old in our times.
from here.

Do you disagree, or do you consider a 9-year old girl old enough to be married?

honestly, i think it's time the Shar'iah be revisited (and lets throw some young people and some WOMEN in there for good measure). i know i'll be bashed (again) for this...but this is my opinion and i'm sticking to it.

maybe when the life expectancy was 30 it made more sense to marry young, but not today. the thought of any of my six daughters marrying right now...i think i'd puke.

 

[Wotan]

Unfortunately you're wrong. Scholars according to the studies they make are indeed supposed to be so, and they do make such studies. But, as everybody else occupying any other job, some of them are stupid, ignorant, stubborn, dishonest and make all kinds of mistakes and issue all kinds of stuff that is viewed by many Muslims as plain wrong.

You mean this perfect inerrant Word of God dictated to the Prophet by the Arch Angel word for word and copied out under the Angel's guidance is - unclear?

The real meaning of Word of God is now up for a vote?:cover:

 

[Badran]

You mean this perfect inerrant Word of God dictated to the Prophet by the Arch Angel word for word and copied out under the Angel's guidance is - unclear?

The real meaning of Word of God is now up for a vote?:cover:

Nobody has authority over the subject, everybody can argue what they want, or believe what they want. In the end, the religion is right there for anybody who wants to study it and find with honesty what it does really say, which in the majority of situations, is pretty clear.

What i was saying, is that scholars are no different than anybody else. Some of them are stupid, bad, ignorant whatever you want, they are people occupying a job, some of them are good and some of them are not.

 

[Autodidact]

Here's a pro-Muslim website, answering Christianity, with an argument justifying the marriage:

5- What about Prophet Muhammad's marriage with 9-year old Aisha?
Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is said to have been 53 years old when he married our mother in Islam Aisha, who is said to have been 6 years old before consummation of marriage, and 9 years old after the consummation. This shouldn't be surprising because:...

from here.

Here's another one, arguing that although he began living with his wife at age 9, this does not make him a pedophile.

[SIZE=-1]Two main theories are often advance by orientalists to attack the pure character of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) on his marriage to Aisha ® at her young age.[/SIZE]..

The write assumes this to be the case, and then goes on to justify it.

The statistics show that the prophet’s marriage to Aisha at her young age was an exception and not a norm of his other marriages

1a. "Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old." Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.236 p.153.

This seems like an impartial Muslim analysis of the controversy. The writer concludes:

The majority view affirms the reliability of these hadiths. If the hadiths and historians are to be trusted, then Mohammed, at around 53 years old, did have sex with a nine year old girl.

Everyone has to agree that the hadiths and the vast bulk of Islamic scholarship both in the past and present teach that Mohammed had sex with a young eight or nine year old girl.

The writer also correctly points to the contemporary importance of the issue:

This is important to a widely practiced but overlooked practice today: child brides in Muslim lands due to Mohammed’s example.

Here's another Muslim site defending Muhammed's actions in marrying a young girl.

Most of the Western people are astonished from the fact that the Prophet – Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him – married Aisha who was just nine years old while he was fifty. Some of them even called such marriage as rape and some of them condemned it. Not only this, but some of them portrayed the Prophet of Islam – Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him – as a man who is sexually suppressed and considered that as the real picture of Islam!!

They have ignored the fact that such marriage in such age in such era was a natural matter, therefore it is clear that they are not criticizing the early marriage of a nine-year-old girl to a fifty-year-old man as much as they are keen to criticize and distort the picture of the Prophet of Islam – Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him – and instigate others against him.

In fact, it appears that no one within Islam questioned this version of history until the 20th century:

It appears that Maulana Muhammad Ali was the first Islamic scholar directly to challenge the notion that Aisha was aged six and nine, respectively, at the time of her nikah and consummation of marriage. This he did in, at least, the following writings: his English booklet Prophet of Islam, his larger English book Muhammad, the Prophet, and in the footnotes in his voluminous Urdu translation and commentary of Sahih Bukhari entitled Fadl-ul-Bari, these three writings being published in the 1920s and 1930s.

Here is another pro-Muslim document, explaining why it was fine to have sex with a 9-year old Aisha:

1. Lady Aisha said: “If the young girl reaches 9 years, then she is a woman”.http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/#_edn1 She is obviously describing herself and her acquaintances.
2. Not merely did she reach menstruation, the great Malki scholar Dawudi commented about her marriage “Aisha then had physically matured well indeed”.[ii]
As a result, not only had Lady Aisha reached puberty when her marriage was consummated, she was also a physically and psychologically mature adult.
from here.

Well, I could go on and on, but I hope I have shown that the mainstream, majority view, which most Islamic writers see as justified, is that the prophet Muhammed, role model for all Muslim men, married a 6-year old girl and consummated that marriage at age 9, which is of course reprehensible and should be criminal.

Please note that every source cited is Muslim.

 

[Autodidact]

My position is simple, I don't understand how someone can misunderstand it. Go back to my post and reread what I said. If you think I am wrong, show me where and how I am wrong. Show me that Islam goes against my position.

There is no such single thing as "Islam." Islam is whatever Muslims believe it is. As I think I have shown, the mainstream view among Muslims is that Muhammed married a little girl and had sex with her, and that is perfectly justified.

As I have said many times, I am not going to be drawn into an argument as to what is or is not Islamic. I'm not a Muslim and it would be presumptuous to have an opinion on the subject. However, what is clear is that most Muslims do believe it is Islamic, and that is the problem. For that reason, what matters to the poor child brides is not True Islam, but what the Muslims in their community believe Islam is. And that is horrible.

 

[Autodidact]

honestly, i think it's time the Shar'iah be revisited (and lets throw some young people and some WOMEN in there for good measure). i know i'll be bashed (again) for this...but this is my opinion and i'm sticking to it.

maybe when the life expectancy was 30 it made more sense to marry young, but not today. the thought of any of my six daughters marrying right now...i think i'd puke.

Well I hope you're advocating for your position. Islam either needs to change or die. It's not O.K. for it to go on exploiting and damaging children like this.
(Not to mention all the other horrible things done in the name of Islam: FGM, honor killing, denying women equal rights, killing gay people, etc. etc.)

 

[Smoke]

:biglaugh:If any of you could make an actual argument as to why Islam condones it you would have a point. Go ahead and take a gander, otherwise sit down.

I don't wish to make that argument; I wish nobody would make it. However there are Muslims who do:

Question

A scholar in our country said that the child marriage, i.e., marrying a girl before she matures is forbidden in Islam. He says that it was initially allowed and later this provision was abrogated. He cites the following hadith as evidence. "Volume 7, Book 62, and Number 67: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we know her permission? "He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)."

He says that Prophet married Aisha (ra) when she was very young before the revelation about the various rules regarding marriage but later the rulings were abrogated. Is the scholar's opinion correct?

May Allah reward you with good?

Thanks.

Answer

Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds; and may His blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon all his Family and Companions.
Getting married at an early age is something that is confirmed by the book of Allah, the Sunnah of his Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam), the consensus of the scholars and the actions of the companions, and the Muslims who came after them.

Moreover, the interest of Shariah proves it. So the claim that this was abrogated is not correct. And the Hadith did not include that meaning; it just states that a virgin woman is not to be married until consulted.

The evidence from the Qur'an is:

1. The saying of Allah: "And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]". (At-Talaq 65:4)

So, Allah set rulings of marriage, divorce and waiting period for the women who have not yet had menses, i.e. the young girls.

The Iddah (waiting period) does not take place except after marriage.

2. Allah also says: "And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four." (An-Nisa 4:3)

Ummul Mu'minin Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, said when she was asked about the interpretation of the above verse by her nephew Urwa Ibn Zubair, "O my nephew! This is about the orphan girl who lives with her guardian and shares his property. Her wealth and beauty may tempt him to marry her without giving her an adequate Mahr (bridal-money) which might have been given by another suitor. So, such guardians were forbidden to marry such orphan girls unless they treated them justly and gave them the most suitable Mahr; otherwise they were ordered to marry any other woman."

The saying of Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her,: "(… So, such guardians were forbidden to marry such orphan girls unless they treated them justly &#8230" is evidence that it is permissible in Islamic Shariah to marry a young girl who is not yet mature, since the person is no longer considered an orphan when he reaches the age of puberty. The orphanage state of being orphan exists only prior to maturity.

3. Allah further says: "They ask your legal instruction concerning the Women. Say: Allah instructs you about them: and about what is recited unto you in the Book, concerning the orphans girls whom yoy give not the portions prescribed, and yet whom you desire to marry." (Al-Nisa: 127)

Ummul muminin Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, said: " An Orphan girl used to be under the care of a guardian with whom she shared property. Her guardian, being attracted by her wealth and beauty, would intend to marry her without giving her a just Mahr, i.e. the same Mahr as any other person might give her (in case he married her). So such guardians were forbidden to do that unless they did justice to their female wards and gave them the highest Mahr their peers might get".

The evidence from the Sunnah is: The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) established the marriage contract with Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, when she was 6 years old, and he consummated the marriage with her when she was 9 years of age.

It is reported in Sahih AlBukhari and Muslim that Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, said: "The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) established the marriage contract with me when I was 6 years of age and consummated the marriage with me when I was 9 years of age."

Ibn Qudama said in Al-Mughni: "There is no difference as regards a young girl who is still a virgin". Ibn Al-Mundhir said: "The reliable people of knowledge agree unanimously that it is permissible for a father to marry his young and virgin daughter to an eligible man. It is also permissible for him to marry her."

Al Baghawi said, like in Fath Al-Bari,: "There is a consensus of the scholars that it is permissible for the fathers to marry their young daughters even if they are still in the cradle, but it is not permissible for the husbands to consummate the marriage with them, unless they become physically fit for sexual intercourse by mature males."

The actions of companions:

There are many Ahadith which confirm that marriage at an early age was widespread among the companions and no one denied its permissibility. Getting married at an early age was not peculiar to the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) as some people think, but it was general for him and for his Ummah.

The following are some of the actions of the Sahaba (companions):

1. Ali Ibn Abi Talib, may Allah be pleased with him, married his daughter, Um Kulthum to Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, and she mothered a child before the death of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam). Omar got married to her while she was young before reaching the age of puberty.

This is reported by Ibn Saad in 'Al-Tabaqat'.

2. From Urwa Ibn Zubair: that Zubair, may Allah be pleased with him, married his daughter when she was very young. Reported by Saeed Ibn Mansour, in his Sunnah, and Ibn Abi Shaibah, in Al-musannaf, with a Sahih chain of narration.

Al-Shafie said in the book of Al-Um: "Many companions of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) married their daughters while these were still young."

Delaying the marriage of girls in many Muslim countries is something new and contradictory to what Muslims used to do over many centuries. This is because of westernization and the application of man-made laws. This caused a change in understandings and customs within a considerable number of the population, and it is absolutely not permissible to consider the customs and traditions in a given country as the standard by which people abide, and fail to obey the absolute evidences of Shariah.

In some Muslim countries, the marriage for girls has been delayed by many years beyond the age of puberty. This has indeed led to an increase in the removal of the veil from the face, and increased fornication and adultery, as well as the emergence of deviation in conduct and religion among the youth. They had become morally unstable as they lack affection, chastity, and protection their private parts from illegal sexual relations.

By delaying marriage, there is also a reduction in the number of Muslims in the Ummah, and this is contrary to the order of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam), as he ordered us to have many children so that the Muslim nation will be greater in number than the previous nations.

Allah knows best.​

Source: http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=88089