Beauty Standards

[Wherenextcolumbus]

http://cumber-hiddles.tumblr.com/post/68793150785/last-week-my-friend-jessi-took-some-amazing

I thought I would post this link here, please read the comments under it also.
Even though I participate in it, I am very honest about how beauty standards effect women and our self esteem. And we know we damn well lie to ourselves about it too, we pretend that it doesn't, that we genuinely like it, that we would do it anyway even if it was not basically forced on us.
I thought it's something important to talk about, especially that some men think the burqa is more degrading and ban worthy, when make-up, high heels and waxing is handed down to us too. We are expected to be masochistic and feel happy to experience pain to look more fragile and feminine. And our own mothers will help us to be this way so we can fit in.
I am a radical for goodness sake and still feel like I need to look better every day. So please share your thoughts.

 

[Sunstone]

So far as I can see, the core issue with beauty standards is the great extent to which they are nowadays manufactured by the cosmetics, entertainment, and fashion industries. I am convinced that is an unhealthy development because it so often results in people trying to live up to standards that are not of their own creation, that might not be suitable to them, and that are most likely not a genuine or faithful expression of themselves. That's all good for business, but it seems to be taking a steep psychological toll in reducing the confidence and self-esteem of many women and girls, among other such problems.

 

[Poeticus]

http://cumber-hiddles.tumblr.com/post/68793150785/last-week-my-friend-jessi-took-some-amazing

I thought I would post this link here, please read the comments under it also.
Even though I participate in it, I am very honest about how beauty standards effect women and our self esteem. And we know we damn well lie to ourselves about it too, we pretend that it doesn't, that we genuinely like it, that we would do it anyway even if it was not basically forced on us.
I thought it's something important to talk about, especially that some men think the burqa is more degrading and ban worthy, when make-up, high heels and waxing is handed down to us too. We are expected to be masochistic and feel happy to experience pain to look more fragile and feminine. And our own mothers will help us to be this way so we can fit in.
I am a radical for goodness sake and still feel like I need to look better every day. So please share your thoughts.

Good topic, H.

You forgot to mention the most important problematic concern of "beauty standards": the Western-centric beauty paradigm is repeatedly purported directly or indirectly through the media to all corners of the world as the ideal standard of beauty. I'm sure you know how horribly this affects non-Western women around the world that always strive, either through peer pressure or through low self-esteem amongst numerous other variables, to achieve this beauty paradigm.

 

[Penumbra]

http://cumber-hiddles.tumblr.com/post/68793150785/last-week-my-friend-jessi-took-some-amazing

I thought I would post this link here, please read the comments under it also.
Even though I participate in it, I am very honest about how beauty standards effect women and our self esteem. And we know we damn well lie to ourselves about it too, we pretend that it doesn't, that we genuinely like it, that we would do it anyway even if it was not basically forced on us.
I thought it's something important to talk about, especially that some men think the burqa is more degrading and ban worthy, when make-up, high heels and waxing is handed down to us too. We are expected to be masochistic and feel happy to experience pain to look more fragile and feminine. And our own mothers will help us to be this way so we can fit in.
I am a radical for goodness sake and still feel like I need to look better every day. So please share your thoughts.

Good picture in the link.

It can certainly be frustrating, and the burden isn't generally evenly shared among men and women.

I'm fairly self-conscious about my body, even odd details, like I look at my back in the mirror (specifically the shoulder blades) and don't like it :areyoucra.

There's a pressure to be perfect on every square inch from head to toe, and it's easy to compare our real selves to other people's made-up or Photoshopped selves. But I keep a fairly low-maintenance beauty regimen, with no make up especially. I still use moisturizers and do DIY facials, DIY manicures and pedicures, and DIY hair removal (epilation), although I purposely choose things that I don't have to do every single day (except shower and moisturize and put my hair in order) and can instead do as a regular but not daily routine that takes fairly minimal time in a given week. Plus, I work out for appearance and health. So I can honestly say I really don't have much of an issue at all with what I do each week for my appearance; it takes almost no time.

Some aspects of beauty are cross-cultural and close to (but not quite) universal and are related to health and athleticism just like most other animals, while many other details are purely cultural. Even parts of our body are the way they are because they were sexually selected to be that way, meaning that unlike some parts that evolved with functional purpose for advantages in survival, other parts are apparently for appearance only, selected most likely from just sexual aesthetic preference over generations.

I grew up with a single father rather than with my mother, so I can't really say much about handing beauty techniques down through the generations (maybe that's why I just skip most of it? I dunno.). And although part of what I consider attractive is determined by culture, it's mostly due to familiarity rather than force, because I wear things and alter my body because I honestly think it looks good and I want to express myself that way, rather than because there's an expectation on me that I grudgingly put up with, but part of why I think it looks good in the first place is that it's mostly what I see, what I'm used to, as prescribed by culture.

So like, I do enjoy the comfort and appearance of smooth legs, short clean nails with my preferred color or no color, and the skin on my face after my facial, and I only wear heels once in a while, but I pick ones that aren't uncomfortable to me throughout the day and I do like how they look.

I work in some engineering unit that has close to no dress code unless we're meeting with clients, so in addition to my no make-up policy I often wear a t-shirt with jeans and sneakers or boots, or a nicer top or sweater, and on some days I just wear heels and other things to work for fun, because there's a spectrum of clothes that people wear in the unit and I like to mix things up. If I'm doing something like cutting aluminum with a circular saw in the machine shop that day, then I have to wear closed-toe shoes and clothes that can get little pieces of hot aluminum sprayed on them without me caring. But I rarely do stuff like that and can wear whatever on most days, and I get excited when summer approaches because it opens up my choices of clothes and shoes.

It becomes a problem, I think, when it is too exaggerated, when people do things they don't want to do. My aunt looks completely different in the day and night because she never, under any circumstances, leaves the house without a full make-up and hair-curling routine.

 

[Caladan]

I only see the photo, is there any link to text?

As far as beauty standards go, while it may sound simplistic, from my perspective as a man, I see much of it enforced by women themselves.
When I look at much of the so called beauty standards, they do not necessarily answer to my personal aesthetics or what inspire attraction. The most radical example is of course the fashion channel, where you see skinny and child like models who seem to have just walked out of a gulag and were dressed up to disguise a broken shell. It certainly isn't the ideal of feminine beauty.
Often I see women wear layers of make up, and accessorize themselves with things that I find peculiar as a man. I believe they do it more for themselves.
So while its true that there is social pressure for women (and men) to look good, I also believe a key to not be taken by it is to develop a certain level of self consciousness.
Personally I appreciate when a man or a woman have their own set of standards which are distinct to them and have been developed by them.
Also, I'd like to say that men like to groom themselves as well, perhaps not as thoroughly as women. But still, in my mind it is better to be conscious to how you look, to respect yourself and to groom yourself, while also understanding the many superficialities of 'beauty standards'.

 

[Amechania]

I sometimes wear eyeliner and lip gloss when I go out. I might even shave and do some trimming if I'm feeling lucky. Otherwise forget it.

 

[Sunstone]

By the way, men are fully capable of being peacocks -- perhaps it is only a fad that in many places they groom themselves today less than women. For instance, look at the American Revolutionary War Era in both the Americas and Europe. Among the elites on both sides of the Atlantic, men wore sashes and gaudy medals, powdered wigs, elaborate clothing with fancy color schemes and shoulder epaulettes, impressive jewelry, and sometimes even facial make-up.

I have read of current studies done by marketing firms connected with the fashion and cosmetics industries that have found a trend -- men are spending more and more time grooming themselves, and more and more money on fashion and cosmetic products. So, perhaps, we might even be headed towards another "golden age of the male peacock".

 

[Huey09]

By the way, men are fully capable of being peacocks -- perhaps it is only a fad that in many places they groom themselves today less than women. For instance, look at the American Revolutionary War Era in both the Americas and Europe. Among the elites on both sides of the Atlantic, men wore sashes and gaudy medals, powdered wigs, elaborate clothing with fancy color schemes and shoulder epaulettes, impressive jewelry, and sometimes even facial make-up.

I have read of current studies done by marketing firms connected with the fashion and cosmetics industries that have found a trend -- men are spending more and more time grooming themselves, and more and more money on fashion and cosmetic products. So, perhaps, we might even be headed towards another "golden age of the male peacock".

Hail to the peacock man! :clap

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Good topic, H.

You forgot to mention the most important problematic concern of "beauty standards": the Western-centric beauty paradigm is repeatedly purported directly or indirectly through the media to all corners of the world as the ideal standard of beauty. I'm sure you know how horribly this affects non-Western women around the world that always strive, either through peer pressure or through low self-esteem amongst numerous other variables, to achieve this beauty paradigm.

Yes I am fully aware of this, especially being in a black family I know how Eurocentric beauty standards effect women of colour also. How things like big lips are attractive on a white woman but grotesque on a black woman.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I only see the photo, is there any link to text?
'.

lohikäärme skeittaa alas portaita

here is the link with the text

 

[Huey09]

Yes I am fully aware of this, especially being in a black family I know how Eurocentric beauty standards effect women of colour also. How things like big lips are attractive on a white woman but grotesque on a black woman.

Not to mention the idea of "good hair"(straight/relaxed) still being perpetuated to young black girls and the idea that nappy(your natural texture) is bad. In an unrelated matter this affects men as well. I can't tell you how many older black people wonder why anyone would wear there hair as an afro on dreadlocks "So a messy and unkempt" I was told once as a child and even now that I have an afro.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

By the way, men are fully capable of being peacocks -- perhaps it is only a fad that in many places they groom themselves today less than women. For instance, look at the American Revolutionary War Era in both the Americas and Europe. Among the elites on both sides of the Atlantic, men wore sashes and gaudy medals, powdered wigs, elaborate clothing with fancy color schemes and shoulder epaulettes, impressive jewelry, and sometimes even facial make-up.

I have read of current studies done by marketing firms connected with the fashion and cosmetics industries that have found a trend -- men are spending more and more time grooming themselves, and more and more money on fashion and cosmetic products. So, perhaps, we might even be headed towards another "golden age of the male peacock".

PPPHHHHHWWWWOOOAAARRRR!!

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Not to mention the idea of "good hair"(straight/relaxed) still being perpetuated to young black girls and the idea that nappy(your natural texture) is bad. In an unrelated matter this affects men as well. I can't tell you how many older black people wonder why anyone would wear there hair as an afro on dreadlocks "So a messy and unkempt" I was told once as a child and even now that I have an afro.

Yes! Dreadlocks and Afro's are amazing (of course I would say that!) But yes there is a lot of shame about having natural hair for black people, my sisters certainly have this shame which makes me very sad.

 

[illykitty]

It's sad that women are being taken advantage of, saying to look a certain way and then spend a lot of time and money to make it happen. It's an industry, they don't care, they want you to be hooked and feel like you NEED this stuff. That's how they make money.

But the sad thing is that I think some women do reinforce this. No one should feel they need this stuff to be pretty. Yes it's nice to enhance (I do it too sometimes), but it's even better to feel comfortable with what you got! It's amazingly liberating!

Men don't have this issue to the same extant as women. In some places (South Korea for example) they do have a lot more pressure than western men but I still don't think as much as women do.

I'm glad I stopped listening to fashion a long time ago and can just step outside with my bare face (well sunscreen and moisturiser on of course)! Yes there's bad days but they're just that - and they don't happen often.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Good picture in the link.

It can certainly be frustrating, and the burden isn't generally evenly shared among men and women.

I'm fairly self-conscious about my body, even odd details, like I look at my back in the mirror (specifically the shoulder blades) and don't like it :areyoucra.

There's a pressure to be perfect on every square inch from head to toe, and it's easy to compare our real selves to other people's made-up or Photoshopped selves. But I keep a fairly low-maintenance beauty regimen, with no make up especially. I still use moisturizers and do DIY facials, DIY manicures and pedicures, and DIY hair removal (epilation), although I purposely choose things that I don't have to do every single day (except shower and moisturize and put my hair in order) and can instead do as a regular but not daily routine that takes fairly minimal time in a given week. Plus, I work out for appearance and health. So I can honestly say I really don't have much of an issue at all with what I do each week for my appearance; it takes almost no time.

Some aspects of beauty are cross-cultural and close to (but not quite) universal and are related to health and athleticism just like most other animals, while many other details are purely cultural. Even parts of our body are the way they are because they were sexually selected to be that way, meaning that unlike some parts that evolved with functional purpose for advantages in survival, other parts are apparently for appearance only, selected most likely from just sexual aesthetic preference over generations.

I grew up with a single father rather than with my mother, so I can't really say much about handing beauty techniques down through the generations (maybe that's why I just skip most of it? I dunno.). And although part of what I consider attractive is determined by culture, it's mostly due to familiarity rather than force, because I wear things and alter my body because I honestly think it looks good and I want to express myself that way, rather than because there's an expectation on me that I grudgingly put up with, but part of why I think it looks good in the first place is that it's mostly what I see, what I'm used to, as prescribed by culture.

So like, I do enjoy the comfort and appearance of smooth legs, short clean nails with my preferred color or no color, and the skin on my face after my facial, and I only wear heels once in a while, but I pick ones that aren't uncomfortable to me throughout the day and I do like how they look.

I work in some engineering unit that has close to no dress code unless we're meeting with clients, so in addition to my no make-up policy I often wear a t-shirt with jeans and sneakers or boots, or a nicer top or sweater, and on some days I just wear heels and other things to work for fun, because there's a spectrum of clothes that people wear in the unit and I like to mix things up. If I'm doing something like cutting aluminum with a circular saw in the machine shop that day, then I have to wear closed-toe shoes and clothes that can get little pieces of hot aluminum sprayed on them without me caring. But I rarely do stuff like that and can wear whatever on most days, and I get excited when summer approaches because it opens up my choices of clothes and shoes.

It becomes a problem, I think, when it is too exaggerated, when people do things they don't want to do. My aunt looks completely different in the day and night because she never, under any circumstances, leaves the house without a full make-up and hair-curling routine.

Thanks for sharing, I have completely given up on heels above 2 inches, even though I like how they look.

 

[Penumbra]

Thanks for sharing, I have completely given up on heels above 2 inches, even though I like how they look.

I wear flats or low heels like 90%+ of the time. My boots have a low heel, a few other shoes have low heels, and most of my shoes are flat. I have one pair that are pretty tall but I only wear them maybe 1-2x per year with a dress. The tallest heels I actually wear once in a while during certain seasons are 3.25", but they're wedge sandals and the platform under the toe is nearly 1.5" so the actual height of the heel over the toe is just under 2" and they're quite comfortable.

There's a woman I know at work, in her early 30's. I'm only moderately acquainted with her since we're not in the same unit, but I walk by her at least once per day and eat lunch with her sometimes because she's a really great person. In the four years that I've known her, she has never worn make up, has never styled her hair at all, never does her nails, has always worn fairly plain clothes (basically jeans and a sweater, almost every day), has never worn jewelry until she became engaged, and yet every single day at work she wears 3-3.5" heels. Every day, every season. I'll never ask her about it but I've just always found it sort of a conflicting mix of styles because she doesn't seem to concern herself with modifying her appearance at all, and yet she is never without at least moderately high heels, ever. And that's the one piece of the puzzle that if worn everyday like that, can cause real harm over time.

lohikäärme skeittaa alas portaita

here is the link with the text

They are really important comments, those that haven't read them probably should.

The first guy is disgusting, and the comments in reply are great.

A question I have for you, from your OP- do you participate in any beauty practices that you'd prefer not to do? Like, are there things in your routine that you would prefer to stop doing?

 

[Penumbra]

By the way, men are fully capable of being peacocks -- perhaps it is only a fad that in many places they groom themselves today less than women. For instance, look at the American Revolutionary War Era in both the Americas and Europe. Among the elites on both sides of the Atlantic, men wore sashes and gaudy medals, powdered wigs, elaborate clothing with fancy color schemes and shoulder epaulettes, impressive jewelry, and sometimes even facial make-up.

I have read of current studies done by marketing firms connected with the fashion and cosmetics industries that have found a trend -- men are spending more and more time grooming themselves, and more and more money on fashion and cosmetic products. So, perhaps, we might even be headed towards another "golden age of the male peacock".

There was a documentary called "Mansome" about that, and it was pretty funny.

Overall, in most species of complex animals, males are basically the "beautiful" ones. It's especially true among birds, where males are often brightly colorful and do elaborate displays for the earth-tone female birds to attract them. Among mammals, there is less sexual dimorphism but if there is a noticeable difference in the species between genders, it's the male that is more likely to have big markings of display, like the lion's mane, the gorilla's silver back, etc.

For much of human history, males were considered the beautiful ones in many cultures. It seems to be that way in many tribal areas, it was certainly that way in ancient Greece and Rome (even going so far as to have an effect on sexual orientation, with attraction towards younger boys or younger men being common and socially acceptable among middle-aged or older men), and beauty of the male body is heavily displayed in European Renaissance art.

But currently there is this idea that like, men are not beautiful, and at the same time are handsome enough just by rolling out of bed in the morning. Not shaving for three days is literally viewed as making a guy hotter. Meanwhile, women are often viewed as the beautiful gender, but only if we go to great lengths to create an artificial appearance that is more perfect than any real woman, with all attractive features highlighted.

It's just a very odd and inconsistent view which doesn't seem helpful to the self esteem of either men or women.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I wear flats or low heels like 90%+ of the time. My boots have a low heel, a few other shoes have low heels, and most of my shoes are flat. I have one pair that are pretty tall but I only wear them maybe 1-2x per year with a dress. The tallest heels I actually wear once in a while during certain seasons are 3.25", but they're wedge sandals and the platform under the toe is nearly 1.5" so the actual height of the heel over the toe is just under 2" and they're quite comfortable.

There's a woman I know at work, in her early 30's. I'm only moderately acquainted with her since we're not in the same unit, but I walk by her at least once per day and eat lunch with her sometimes because she's a really great person. In the four years that I've known her, she has never worn make up, has never styled her hair at all, never does her nails, has always worn fairly plain clothes (basically jeans and a sweater, almost every day), has never worn jewelry until she became engaged, and yet every single day at work she wears 3-3.5" heels. Every day, every season. I'll never ask her about it but I've just always found it sort of a conflicting mix of styles because she doesn't seem to concern herself with modifying her appearance at all, and yet she is never without at least moderately high heels, ever. And that's the one piece of the puzzle that if worn everyday like that, can cause real harm over time.

I honestly don't know how any woman can continue it physically it is quite disabling, like you can be at a party and not be able to dance as much as you would like to, just because of silly high heels.

A question I have for you, from your OP- do you participate in any beauty practices that you'd prefer not to do? Like, are there things in your routine that you would prefer to stop doing?

I think it more my mentality Penumbra, most of the time I make no effort at all. But then I won't think I am attractive unless I make a lot of effort when I do. Some things I don't give a rats **** about like my hairy arm pits, but I would feel a lot better with make up, even though most of the time I can't be bothered to wear it.

 

[Penumbra]

I honestly don't know how any woman can continue it physically it is quite disabling, like you can be at a party and not be able to dance as much as you would like to, just because of silly high heels.

Well I'm a terrible dancer anyway so...

I can't imagine wearing them every day. The ones I pick out are comfortable but the literature just says not to do it on a regular basis. Wearing them once in a while is not really known to cause any physical problems but wearing them all the time seems like a recipe for major foot issues.

In salsa dancing, heels are generally worn and the dancing is somehow still ridiculously good. Like, she moves better on heels than I could ever hope to do even when barefoot:

[youtube]F5zCGgZMaWQ[/youtube]
Amazing Latin Dance! - YouTube

(It's just amazing to watch what they do, the stunts get better and better in the video.)

I think it more my mentality Penumbra, most of the time I make no effort at all. But then I won't think I am attractive unless I make a lot of effort when I do. Some things I don't give a rats **** about like my hairy arm pits, but I would feel a lot better with make up, even though most of the time I can't be bothered to wear it.

Usually I think my skin looks pretty good since I take care of it but then when I see it under really intense florescent lighting I'm like, "Oh my god, what is this mess?" :areyoucra

But when a guy is under that type of lighting, his skin looks the same or messier (since male skin is thicker, oilier, and with larger pores generally) and it's not an issue.

 

[Sunstone]

I don't know if anyone is still familiar with him anymore, but there was an American who, in the 70s and 80s, created something of a sensation in the US by authoring two or three books on how a person's dress and appearance affected other people's perception of them.

The books were geared to a popular audience and had cheesy titles like, Dress for Success for Men, Dress for Success for Women, Living for Success, and How to Work the Competition into the Ground While Having Fun Doing It. What is sometimes not wildly appreciated about those books is the original scientific research that went into them.

John T. Molloy, their author, was the owner of a company that other, usually much larger, corporations went to when they had questions like, should our sales people dress in a distinctive, uniform style? And, if so, how much impact can we expect it to have on our revenues from sales?

In other words, Molloy and his company did original scientifically rigorous research into, among other things, how different appearances, clothing, or "looks" created different impressions on people. For instance, at least one of his studies revealed there were strong regional differences in the US in how people should dress in order to be perceived as upper middle class or "successful" by other people from the same region.

At one point, he was commissioned by some corporation to do a study on the effectiveness of make-up. That is, he was commissioned to answer several questions along the lines of, "To what extent, if any, does a woman's make-up increase her attractiveness to men?"

Molloy did a number of experiments, and I no longer recall most of the details, but the gist of his findings in one area was that the majority of men of all ages would say that a woman under the age of 50 wearing make-up was generally more attractive to them than the same woman without make-up.

However, the surprising finding was the same men who claimed that women under the age of 50 wearing make-up were more attractive, would not actually, in practice, prefer made-up women to women without make-up when the men were given a clever test that measured their preferences in practice, rather than merely asked them to state their preferences.

The converse held true with women over the age of 50. That is, men of all ages showed a significant preference in practice for women over the age of 50 who were wearing make-up, compared to women over the age of 50 who were not.

It's been a couple decades since I read Molloy's description of his research and I might now have some of it a bit wrong. But my impression is that I have the gist of it, which I mentioned here, pretty much right. I do not know, however, whether Molloy's studies were ever collaborated by anyone else.

By the way, Molloy's book, How to Work the Competition into the Ground, is an excellent, science-based book on personal time management skills and it most likely remains relevant even today.