Beauty Standards

[Wherenextcolumbus]

You're kidding, right? I worked in law enforcement before I retired. I don't know anything about societal pressure to conform.

Then you should know beauty standards are imposed before they are self-imposed.

 

[Pine]

Then you should know beauty standards are imposed before they are self-imposed.

We have a choice as to whether or not we cave to the pressure. You can be weak and submit or you can be strong and say "F you. I'm my own woman."

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

We have a choice as to whether or not we cave to the pressure. You can be weak and submit or you can be strong and say "F you. I'm my own woman."

That is what I have a problem with, that oppressed groups have the extra burden of being viewed as weak if they submit to what they have always known.

 

[Pine]

I see your point. Not much to be done about it though.

 

[Penumbra]

I just want to add that this thread wasn't meant to be taken personally and for people to list in detail their beauty regimes and what they are willing and not willing to do themselves. It was about how we have been socialised to view ourselves as women and to place more value on ourselves by what me look like than men. And for us to be able to be honest about it.

The OP started with the premise that women don't want to do it, that we lie to ourselves about enjoying it, etc.

So, some people including myself responded that, at least for us, that's not the case. That it's not a universal experience. I can't get in the heads of other people and say what they think, but I can say what's in my own head, when presented with an OP like that.

I agree with the other points, like the tumblr link, and the observation that (at least currently) women are pressured more than men to look nice and it can affect self-esteem. I'm sure some or many women do things they would prefer not to do.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

The OP started with the premise that women don't want to do it, that we lie to ourselves about enjoying it, etc.

So, some people including myself responded that, at least for us, that's not the case. That it's not a universal experience. I can't get in the heads of other people and say what they think, but I can say what's in my own head, when presented with an OP like that.

I agree with the other points, like the tumblr link, and the observation that (at least currently) women are pressured more than men to look nice and it can affect self-esteem. I'm sure some or many women do things they would prefer not to do.

What I meant is we lie to ourselves that it doesn't effect our self esteem and that it's authentic and that we would do it anyway if we weren't socialised this way as girls, not that we lie about wanting to do it, of course we want to do it, but under specific reasonings that are taught us, such as our natural bodies being unclean for example. Who wants to be viewed as unclean?

 

[Pine]

We do lie to ourselves. Why else would we wear impossibly short dresses, foot-damaging high heels, and chemicals all over our faces? That is self-denial of the worst kind to conform to an archaic paradigm.

IMHO, short of a catastrophe that drastically alters societal norms, we're screwed, especially with men. They are visual creatures conditioned to specific expectations.

The answer is to say "I don't give a damn. I'll look the way I want to look."

There is no solution to society viewing it as weak if we comply. Even I view it as weak. That doesn't mean women are completely weak. Only that they refuse to fight that particular battle.

 

[Pine]

What I meant is we lie to ourselves that it doesn't effect our self esteem and that it's authentic and that we would do it anyway if we weren't socialised this way as girls, not that we lie about wanting to do it, of course we want to do it, but under specific reasonings that are taught us, such as our natural bodies being unclean for example. Who wants to be viewed as unclean?

That is why we have to continue to fight. Unfortunately, as long as women comply, the attitudes will not change.

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

That is why we have to continue to fight. Unfortunately, as long as women comply, the attitudes will not change.

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

I think also men can help us with this, I do think young men are more influenced by older men. And I will give you an example, when a guy I worked with who was 18 at the time found out I didn't wax my armpits he started freaking out. Then I was at my sisters house and her friend was there with her bf and she hasn't waxed her armpits in a while. I told her bf about the guy at work freaking out, and he asked me how old he was, I said he was 18 and he said, yes it's because he is 18.
I then told the guy I worked with this and suddenly he tried to change his attitude to come across as more mature, "oh what I meant was that its not common for women to do that but obviously you can do what you want, and I suppose if it is your gf than it's different."
He was more embarrassed by an older mans opinion of him than a womans opinion.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Women should do as they like. Screw what other people think.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Women should do as they like. Screw what other people think.

I probably wouldn't have done what I liked if it wasn't for feminism, feminism gave me the power to question myself. And even I can feel a bit uncomfortable with what I like because I know it's not socially acceptable, so you have to deal with people's reactions. It can be a very complicated thing to do what one likes or better yet to accept yourself as you are.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I want women to look in the mirror and like what they see, not try to live up to some other person's standards.

 

[dawny0826]

I just want to add that this thread wasn't meant to be taken personally and for people to list in detail their beauty regimes and what they are willing and not willing to do themselves. It was about how we have been socialised to view ourselves as women and to place more value on ourselves by what me look like than men. And for us to be able to be honest about it.

I was honest. I shave my legs, wear cosmetics, tweeze my eyebrows and paint my nails because I WANT to.

I'm well aware of the evolution of beauty "standards" particularly within the cosmetic industry and it doesn't really matter to me WHERE such practices stemmed. What matters to me is how I feel about such practices now.

I'm more sensitive to unfair portrayals of beauty in the context of body type. However, I'm not weak minded enough to allow such portrayals to pressure me into doing something that I don't want to do.

 

[Sunstone]

I want women to look in the mirror and like what they see, not try to live up to some other person's standards.

Exactly! Something I've noticed, Rick, is that when a person is being true to themselves -- that is, when they are being authentic -- they have a certain kind of beauty and attraction that, so far as I have seen, is found nowhere else.

Sometimes it is easiest to see it when you think about its opposite. When a person is not being true to themselves -- that is, when they are putting on a mask, a facade, or a false front -- there is something about it that most of us don't much like and are off put by, even when we pretend to be accepting of it. At best, we ignore their mask, at worse we ridicule it.

But it is for most of us very different when we meet someone who is being true to themselves, who is being authentic, genuine, real. We tend to respond positively to that, we tend to at the very least respect it, and we often enough admire them for it. And we even admire them for it, and are attracted to their authenticity, when we disagree with much of what they do and say.

 

[Penumbra]

There's a fuzzy line to begin with, between self-imposed body alteration and preference, and society-imposed body alteration and preference. The first can be a bad thing, neutral thing or a even a good thing, while the second will generally be a more negative thing, imo.

Human groups have been altering their bodies in harmless ways for the sake of beauty or self-expression (skin paint, clothing, feathers, hair styles, body hair management, minor piercings, minor tattoos, nail color, jewelry, etc) since earliest pieces of evidence that researchers have on paleolithic hunter-gatherer tribes. Some non-human species even do this; alter themselves for attracting mates. Some groups have been harming their bodies for similar reasons (corsets, foot-binding, neck rings, enormous lip plates, daily wearing of high heels, etc) which we could probably agree is bad, although it's hard to say where the line is to be drawn (like what about full body tattoos and big ear piercing gauges?).

Sometimes it can be hard to see where self-imposed alteration ends, and where societal influence begins. Society is a collection of individuals anyway, so the preferences arise from somewhere.

So for example, I had a high school friend who told me her boyfriend had a tremendous amount of hair in his nether regions. Like all up around his groin, between his legs, over his buttocks, all up in his butt, just so much long dense dark hair. Like, more in his butt and all up between the legs than on his head, the way she described it. It was surprising, because I didn't expect that from looking at him, but he basically had this thick furry underwear apparently. And he was self-conscious about it. She said he literally apologized to her when he presented it to her. She thought it was gross, but didn't want to say anything, and tried to hide her opinion to the best of her ability. She was worried enough about it, she was literally asking me advice on how to approach the subject, and whether or not I ever saw anything like that on a guy. Now what would make both himself and her not like his furry underwear? Is there a lot of media pressure for men to have no more than a moderate amount of hair all up in there? Not really. Is there some secret understanding that it's not attractive? I dunno. But it was apparently noteworthy enough of her to tell me about it, she vented to me rather than to him, because she didn't like it. But regardless of precisely why, he didn't like it, she didn't like it, and it's his opinion that really matters. If hypothetically he liked it, he could find a girl that will deal with it, or even like it a lot. Or maybe not, I dunno. The short narrative is that he eventually waxed it. Seems like the right move, since I didn't hear anything about the issue after that. If everyone is happy, then that's good.

Or, I knew this girl from elementary school and onward, and I'm still acquainted with her when she's 26 years old. She happens to have a thick dark mustache and side burns. Not a thin one that some women grow, but like a really thick dark one, and side burns to match it, more than some young men. Some women get that, but it's rare. There are conditions that a doctor might want to look at if that happens, like excess testosterone coming from certain real health issues. But maybe it can happen without causing other problems, I dunno, I'm not a medical expert. Our culture doesn't seem to explicitly say that it's unattractive for women to have so much dense facial hair like that, but media kind of implies it because we don't really see any models or actresses with mustaches and side burns. It's kind of taken for granted that it's not considered attractive in my culture. Maybe in some cultures, it is attractive. It could be looked at as a rare, beautiful thing. I mean, in ancient Egyptian royal culture, the pharaohs generally rocked those long skinny beards under their chin, or wore fake beards there. There was a woman pharaoh, and her tomb shows her with that long skinny beard too. She probably didn't grow it; she probably wore a ceremonial fake beard. So that's an example of where a woman with a beard was a good thing, because she'd put on a fake beard or have artists sculpt her with a beard. Now, the woman I know is 26, and I happen to know with about 99% certainty that she's never had a boyfriend or girlfriend. Maybe it's related to the fact that she rocks a mustache and side burns, or maybe it's unrelated. As far as I know, she's never gotten rid of her facial hair even for a short period, so maybe she likes how it looks. Maybe she's okay with how it might impact her dating, maybe she expects to find that guy or girl that loves it. Or maybe she just happens to be asexual, or not interested in dating yet, I dunno. Personally, if I grew a mustache, I'd get that taken care of immediately. I just don't think I could pull of the mustache and sideburns look. But she keeps it. If she were to remove it (even if she likes it personally), I wouldn't blame her, and if she keeps it, then all the power to her.

Now me personally, I don't have those issues, but like most, I grew a bit of hair on my legs that I wasn't fond of. Now, I know for a fact that there are guys out there that specifically like it when women have some body hair, that even seek it out. You can google it. So it's not for lack of potential dates. But for one reason or another, maybe societal influence from a young age, like a lot of people, I certainly didn't and don't like it, and so I keep my legs hairless. Seems a pretty harmless form of self-expression and beauty, to some extent self-imposed and some extent society-imposed. I wouldn't really want people to assume it's some societal pressure I'm bowing down to, submitting to the man. I just don't like it, and I choose to alter it by removing it. And all is well.

I don't think it's good to assume motives of other people. Now if there is some real harm happening, it's probably time to speak up, like feet doctors that speak up about regularly wearing high heels. Or if someone talks about a self-esteem issue because they don't want to do something but feel they should by society, then that's unfortunate and it's good to tell them that they should present their self how they want. But if people are doing some harmless alterations of the human body like has been going on longer than recorded history, and they like to do so, then I say let it be.

 

[Alceste]

The very first time a woman told me she didn't bother shaving her legs or pits in winter, it was like a light bulb going on for me. Like, wow, I'm doing a totally pointless thing! Before, I just did it on auto-pilot, because that's what women do and I so very much wanted to be a "woman" instead of a "girl". Likewise, the very first time a pair of men I really like and respect mentioned they prefer women without make-up, I was immediately relieved of any personal sense of obligation to wear make-up, which I'd also been doing without reflection.

I think that while the influence of the industry and social expectations is pervasive, it is also very shallow and vulnerable to a little serious reflection.

These days, I do practically nothing. I wear Blundstones or other flat, good quality shoes, do nothing with my hair but wash it and pull it out of my face. I'm even excited to be going grey. I think it's cool, and one of my favorite women growing up had long, silver hair and a youthful face. I still think that's beautiful.

I think that our culture's obsession with unattainable beauty standards is related to our general narcissism. We aspire to be exceptional rather than content, wise, ordinary or humble. We want to stand out, and both men and women use whatever tools they can to stand out and appear "better than" others. Smarter, prettier, faster, richer, stronger, etc. Faking it is not only acceptable, but encouraged.

 

[dawny0826]

The very first time a woman told me she didn't bother shaving her legs or pits in winter, it was like a light bulb going on for me. Like, wow, I'm doing a totally pointless thing! Before, I just did it on auto-pilot, because that's what women do and I so very much wanted to be a "woman" instead of a "girl". Likewise, the very first time a pair of men I really like and respect mentioned they prefer women without make-up, I was immediately relieved of any personal sense of obligation to wear make-up, which I'd also been doing without reflection.

I think that while the influence of the industry and social expectations is pervasive, it is also very shallow and vulnerable to a little serious reflection.

These days, I do practically nothing. I wear Blundstones or other flat, good quality shoes, do nothing with my hair but wash it and pull it out of my face. I'm even excited to be going grey. I think it's cool, and one of my favorite women growing up had long, silver hair and a youthful face. I still think that's beautiful.

I think that our culture's obsession with unattainable beauty standards is related to our general narcissism. We aspire to be exceptional rather than content, wise, ordinary or humble. We want to stand out, and both men and women use whatever tools they can to stand out and appear "better than" others. Smarter, prettier, faster, richer, stronger, etc. Faking it is not only acceptable, but encouraged.

And some of us view cosmetology as art.

I respect the woman who embraces her natural beauty and contest, again, that not all of us who embrace cosmetology and some beauty "trends" are doing so to elevate ourselves above people those that choose not too.

To the contrary, cosmetology, in particular can be a joyful form of artistic expression, just as music, painting on canvas, dance and other forms of expression can be.

If I feel prettier, it's a self edifying benefit and really has nothing to do with the other women around me.

Unless a person is making their own clothing and shoes, ignoring all fashion trends altogether and foregoes all skin care - there's some "buy in" to the same "on trend" facets of society that they front like they're opting out of.

Even the "natural look" (if one purchases from a store) found its way to on a runway. Most of our basic, frill-free skincare, even it its organic and purest form was designed for women by men, during more opressive points in our history.

I think it boils down to our personal perceptions of beauty and personal expectations. Afterall, if we're fulfiling personal expectations, and embracing our own freedoms - at the root of it, we really just have problems with one another, issues that likely stem from our own insecurities and jealousy.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

And some of us view cosmetology as art.

I respect the woman who embraces her natural beauty and contest, again, that not all of us who embrace cosmetology and some beauty "trends" are doing so to elevate ourselves above people those that choose not too.

To the contrary, cosmetology, in particular can be a joyful form of artistic expression, just as music, painting on canvas, dance and other forms of expression can be.

If I feel prettier, it's a self edifying benefit and really has nothing to do with the other women around me.

Unless a person is making their own clothing and shoes, ignoring all fashion trends altogether and foregoes all skin care - there's some "buy in" to the same "on trend" facets of society that they front like they're opting out of.

Even the "natural look" (if one purchases from a store) found its way to on a runway. Most of our basic, frill-free skincare, even it its organic and purest form was designed for women by men, during more opressive points in our history.

I think it boils down to our personal perceptions of beauty and personal expectations. Afterall, if we're fulfiling personal expectations, and embracing our own freedoms - at the root of it, we really just have problems with one another, issues that likely stem from our own insecurities and jealousy.

I too see makeup as an art form: Haute Haute Couture

But I don't think that is what we are talking about. We are talking about how women are made to feel unattractive or have issues with our natural selves in ways that men aren't. Makeup is mostly not marketed as a creative tool, but as a tool to hide "imperfections" on women specifically.

 

[Alceste]

And some of us view cosmetology as art.

I respect the woman who embraces her natural beauty and contest, again, that not all of us who embrace cosmetology and some beauty "trends" are doing so to elevate ourselves above people those that choose not too.

To the contrary, cosmetology, in particular can be a joyful form of artistic expression, just as music, painting on canvas, dance and other forms of expression can be.

If I feel prettier, it's a self edifying benefit and really has nothing to do with the other women around me.

Unless a person is making their own clothing and shoes, ignoring all fashion trends altogether and foregoes all skin care - there's some "buy in" to the same "on trend" facets of society that they front like they're opting out of.

Even the "natural look" (if one purchases from a store) found its way to on a runway. Most of our basic, frill-free skincare, even it its organic and purest form was designed for women by men, during more opressive points in our history.

I think it boils down to our personal perceptions of beauty and personal expectations. Afterall, if we're fulfiling personal expectations, and embracing our own freedoms - at the root of it, we really just have problems with one another, issues that likely stem from our own insecurities and jealousy.

Hey, I enjoy going to town occasionally. I've been known to dabble in burlesque from time and love the transformation. I get a big kick out of it. I can totally relate to the view that it can be a form of art.

What I think is tragic is the women I've known in my life who feel very anxious about going outside in public without their hair and make-up done, legs waxed, brows plucked, etc. I feel that is a tremendous loss of their personal freedom, a completely unnecessary psychological discomfort, and a monstrous waste of time for them.

From my perspective, nearly all of my female friends feel some form of anxiety about going out in public without doing something very time consuming and unnecessary about their appearance. I only know a couple of women who could feel just as comfortable about themselves dolled up to the nines or strolling outside in sweat pants without even bothering to look in the mirror, but they are women I believe are genuinely doing it for fun and the art of it.

Edited to add: that might have come out like I don't think you are one of the ones who is genuinely having fun with it - not the case. Sounds like you are.

 

[Caladan]

And some of us view cosmetology as art.

I respect the woman who embraces her natural beauty and contest, again, that not all of us who embrace cosmetology and some beauty "trends" are doing so to elevate ourselves above people those that choose not too.

To the contrary, cosmetology, in particular can be a joyful form of artistic expression, just as music, painting on canvas, dance and other forms of expression can be.

If I feel prettier, it's a self edifying benefit and really has nothing to do with the other women around me.

Unless a person is making their own clothing and shoes, ignoring all fashion trends altogether and foregoes all skin care - there's some "buy in" to the same "on trend" facets of society that they front like they're opting out of.

Even the "natural look" (if one purchases from a store) found its way to on a runway. Most of our basic, frill-free skincare, even it its organic and purest form was designed for women by men, during more opressive points in our history.

I think it boils down to our personal perceptions of beauty and personal expectations. Afterall, if we're fulfiling personal expectations, and embracing our own freedoms - at the root of it, we really just have problems with one another, issues that likely stem from our own insecurities and jealousy.

I too see makeup as an art form: Haute Haute Couture

But I don't think that is what we are talking about. We are talking about how women are made to feel unattractive or have issues with our natural selves in ways that men aren't. Makeup is mostly not marketed as a creative tool, but as a tool to hide "imperfections" on women specifically.

What I think is tragic is the women I've known in my life who feel very anxious about going outside in public without their hair and make-up done, legs waxed, brows plucked, etc. I feel that is a tremendous loss of their personal freedom, a completely unnecessary psychological discomfort, and a monstrous waste of time for them.

From my perspective, nearly all of my female friends feel some form of anxiety about going out in public without doing something very time consuming and unnecessary about their appearance. I only know a couple of women who could feel just as comfortable about themselves dolled up to the nines or strolling outside in sweat pants without even bothering to look in the mirror, but they are women I believe are genuinely doing it for fun and the art of it.

Edited to add: that might have come out like I don't think you are one of the ones who is genuinely having fun with it - not the case. Sounds like you are.

Three posts quoted for truth and for capturing the angles of these circumstances.
Also I just want to note that I check myself in the mirror even if I go to work, just to make sure I'm presentable, and on other occasions to make sure I 'look good' before going socializing. So guys care about appearance as well, we just don't have as hard time as women seemingly because of historical taboos that expect more of them. After all, 'women need to look decent'. Although 'decent' developed more meanings today.
I think dawny presents a great point though. Taking ownership over creative cosmetics liberates it from taboo and traditional archaic social reasons. When women, or fashion conscious men use such a platform to promote independent lifestyle and personal aesthetics it's no longer standards which are enforced on others to conform them to industrial fashion or to taboos of decency.