Belief in the Trinity

[Dinner123]

I voted no.

Jesus said he had come from heaven to do the will of the Father. He never claimed that he himself was the Father and nowhere do the scriptures state that Jesus is the Father.

John 20:16*Jesus said to her: “Mary!” Upon turning around, she said to him, in Hebrew: “Rab·bo′ni!” (which means “Teacher!”) 17*Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”


KISS.

Your argument seems to be that He cannot be the Father because He is the Son. Of course He is the Son of God. But just because He is the Son of God you should not conclude that He is not God. The Bible actually claims both strongly. Jesus does claim He is the Father in John 14:7-9. isaiah 9:6 claims the Son will be called everlasting Father.

 

[Pegg]

Your argument seems to be that He cannot be the Father because He is the Son. Of course He is the Son of God. But just because He is the Son of God you should not conclude that He is not God. The Bible actually claims both strongly. Jesus does claim He is the Father in John 14:7-9. isaiah 9:6 claims the Son will be called everlasting Father.

(John 14:7-9) If YOU men had known me, YOU would have known my Father also; from this moment on YOU know him and have seen him.” 8*Philip said to him: “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9*Jesus said to him: “Have I been with YOU men so long a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? He that has seen me has seen the Father [also]. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


Jesus was just like his father. Everything Jesus did, he did in imitation of his father.
Why do you think we are told to imitate Jesus? Its because he imitated his father and we are told to likewise imitate God,

“Become imitators of God, as beloved children, and go on walking in love.”—Eph. 5:1, 2.

 

[ZooGirl02]

I do believe in the Trinity. I believe in the Trinity because that is what the Catholic Church teaches. Also, it makes sense to me that God would be complex since He is God. That's my own opinion though.

 

[rusra02]

I do believe in the Trinity. I believe in the Trinity because that is what the Catholic Church teaches. Also, it makes sense to me that God would be complex since He is God. That's my own opinion though.

Just curious; were you raised as a Catholic or did you convert?

 

[JayJayDee]

I voted :no:

Phil 2:5-11 is often given as a proof text for the trinity but on closer inspection it proves to be just the opposite.

"Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. 8 More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father"

Jesus was "existing in God's form". What "form" does God have? God is a spirit. (John 4:24) Jesus was a spirit before coming to earth to be born as a human child.

He "became obedient as far as death". To whom was the son obedient?

"God exalted him to a higher position". If Jesus was God, he would already occupy the highest position there is. (Psalm 83:18)

"and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name". If Jesus was God, he would already have a name above any other.

"and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father". If Jesus was God, then his own glory would be sought as a co-equal, co-eternal being with the Father. No mention is made of the holy spirit in just about every scripture where Jehovah and his son are mentioned together. John 17:3 is a classic example. 'Knowledge of God and his Christ are necessary for everlasting life', but there is no knowledge required of the third person.

Jesus did "all things for God's glory"....not his own.

Rev 3:12 was also mentioned.

“‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine."

The Revelation was written some 60 odd years after Jesus returned to heaven and still The Father is Jesus' God. How does one part of God worship an equal part of himself in heaven?

How anyone can believe this silly scenario is beyond me.

 

[james2ko]

Voted no. Historical and biblical evidence against a triune relationship is plentiful.

 

[ZooGirl02]

Just curious; were you raised as a Catholic or did you convert?

I am a convert to the Catholic Church. I was raised Southern Baptist and tried out many different denominations in my search for the Truth. Finally someone introduced me to the historicity of the Catholic Church and I was hooked. I then officially became a Catholic on Easter Vigil of 2006. I am so thankful that I did this.

 

[Dinner123]

(John 14:7-9) If YOU men had known me, YOU would have known my Father also; from this moment on YOU know him and have seen him.” 8*Philip said to him: “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9*Jesus said to him: “Have I been with YOU men so long a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? He that has seen me has seen the Father [also]. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


Jesus was just like his father. Everything Jesus did, he did in imitation of his father.
Why do you think we are told to imitate Jesus? Its because he imitated his father and we are told to likewise imitate God,

“Become imitators of God, as beloved children, and go on walking in love.”—Eph. 5:1, 2.

Jesus is so like God that when you see Him you might as well see God? So, then ... God is not a matchless God? I believe in a matchless God.

The name Michael is a rhetorical question meant to glorify God. Not a statement about Michael himself. "Who is like God?" Not "He who is like God."

Therefore, if Jesus is the revealing of God; then He must be God.

 

[JayJayDee]

I am a convert to the Catholic Church. I was raised Southern Baptist and tried out many different denominations in my search for the Truth. Finally someone introduced me to the historicity of the Catholic Church and I was hooked. I then officially became a Catholic on Easter Vigil of 2006. I am so thankful that I did this.

Have you ever done a comparison of Catholic beliefs with the Bible?

The Catholic church will take church tradition over the word of God every time.

It is interesting to note that the Pharisees of Jesus day did exactly the same thing. Jesus said that they invalidated God's word because of their tradition.
They were steeped in the traditions of their 'fathers' too.

Do you know what kinds of tradition in the Catholic faith would fight with God's word?

There is the use and adoration of images for starters, and the connection to sun worship which so obvious in Catholic art and iconography. Using images in worship is in breach of the second commandment. (Ex20)

There is also the trinity of course and the festivals of Christmas and Easter, both of which were adopted by the church after Constantine made Roman Catholicism the state religion apart from regeneration of faith. He simply took the festivals he couldn't get rid of and pasted a "Christian" label over the top of them and pretended that they were Christian celebrations.

The words "Christmas" and "Easter" are not found in the Bible, nor did the first Christians observe them. The date of Christ's birth is not recorded, so no one really knows on what date his human birth took place.

Easter is actually the name of the false goddess in whose honor the original festival was held. Her emblems were related to fertility....rabbits and eggs. Sound familiar?

The reformation took place for a lot of good reasons, it broke the power of a corrupt institution, but it did not unify the church, instead it fractured it into literally thousands of bickering sects, all claiming Jesus as their "Lord and Savior". (Matt 7:21-23)

The truth is still there, but it is buried under a pile of fakes. This was actually prophesied.

Keep digging, the wheat are still in the world, despite the proliferation of the weeds.....you just have to know what you're looking for. :yes:

 

[YmirGF]

Personally, I have no problems with Trinity doctrine. Then again, I'm a friend of the family, so perhaps I am a bit biased.

 

[Quiddity]

Have you ever done a comparison of Catholic beliefs with the Bible?

In it's entire existence......it is entirely plausible that the billions of Catholics that have existed, that it's never once dawned on us to ever check whether our beliefs match up with the Bible. :areyoucra

 

[YmirGF]

In it's entire existence......it is entirely plausible that the billions of Catholics that have existed, that it's never once dawned on us to ever check whether our beliefs match up with the Bible. :areyoucra

Yeah, I never realized that Catholic doctrine had to exactly match the King James Bible. How very strange.

 

[ZooGirl02]

Have you ever done a comparison of Catholic beliefs with the Bible?

The Catholic church will take church tradition over the word of God every time.

It is interesting to note that the Pharisees of Jesus day did exactly the same thing. Jesus said that they invalidated God's word because of their tradition.
They were steeped in the traditions of their 'fathers' too.

Do you know what kinds of tradition in the Catholic faith would fight with God's word?

There is the use and adoration of images for starters, and the connection to sun worship which so obvious in Catholic art and iconography. Using images in worship is in breach of the second commandment. (Ex20)

There is also the trinity of course and the festivals of Christmas and Easter, both of which were adopted by the church after Constantine made Roman Catholicism the state religion apart from regeneration of faith. He simply took the festivals he couldn't get rid of and pasted a "Christian" label over the top of them and pretended that they were Christian celebrations.

The words "Christmas" and "Easter" are not found in the Bible, nor did the first Christians observe them. The date of Christ's birth is not recorded, so no one really knows on what date his human birth took place.

Easter is actually the name of the false goddess in whose honor the original festival was held. Her emblems were related to fertility....rabbits and eggs. Sound familiar?

The reformation took place for a lot of good reasons, it broke the power of a corrupt institution, but it did not unify the church, instead it fractured it into literally thousands of bickering sects, all claiming Jesus as their "Lord and Savior". (Matt 7:21-23)

The truth is still there, but it is buried under a pile of fakes. This was actually prophesied.

Keep digging, the wheat are still in the world, despite the proliferation of the weeds.....you just have to know what you're looking for. :yes:

I have compared Catholic beliefs to the Bible and I found them to be very Biblical beliefs. And no, the Catholic Church does not take tradition over the Bible. The Catholic Church considers tradition and the Bible to be equal. That's the way I understand it anyway.

 

[InChrist]

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I believe in the three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the One true God because the day I was saved my perspective was transformed. I realized then that Jesus, the Son who came to earth as the Savior had to be God because only the infinite God has the capability to pay the infinite penalty for all the sins of humanity. I don’t believe the penalty of eternal death and separation from God could possibly have been paid by any created being, human, angel, or otherwise, but only by the infinite God Himself.

I believe, unlike any other religion or concept of God, the Bible alone reveals God as Eternal Love. I cannot fathom how God could be real “love” if God had only Himself alone for eons of eternity without another to love. But in the plurality of the one God I see the necessary unity and diversity demonstrating the eternal love, fellowship, and communion between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I also see evidence of the triune nature of God marked on His creation which I don’t believe are coincidental. For example: space, matter, time compose the one cosmos; past, present, future compose time as one whole, and body, soul, and spirit compose one human being.

I was raised Catholic, but had already thoroughly rejected the Trinity doctrine and left Catholicism by age twenty. Over ten years later, on a Sunday exactly two weeks and one day before the day I was saved I remember saying to my husband, “I don’t know how anyone can believe the ridiculous doctrine of the Trinity”. I had to take back those words and I attribute my change in thinking to God revealing Himself to me as three Persons composing One God.

 

[JayJayDee]

I have compared Catholic beliefs to the Bible and I found them to be very Biblical beliefs. And no, the Catholic Church does not take tradition over the Bible. The Catholic Church considers tradition and the Bible to be equal. That's the way I understand it anyway.

Hello ZooGirl,

I have spent my whole life studying the Bible very carefully. It is my passion and serving my God is what I seek to do in some way every day.

I was raised in the Anglican Church and assumed that what they taught me was true, after all, I had no reason to doubt them. I also assumed that celebrating Christmas and Easter, the two most important dates on the calendar for Christians (or so I thought) was very important and a way to show God how much we appreciated the birth and sacrifice of his son.
It never occurred to me to question the customs that went with these celebrations.

My sister began studying the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses and I was really worried that she had become involved with some strange sect who would lead her astray. She would call me and say...."did you know that the Bible says such and such?" Just to prove her wrong, I would get my KJV out and read the scripture, but every time she would be right and I was reading it in my own Bible.

She asked me if I knew where Christmas and Easter came from....of course I said the Bible, but then she showed me proof of their origins in paganism. I was shocked! How could the church be party to that? I knew that God forbids the practise of false worship. She then told me to read 2 Cor 6:14-18. That was the clincher. We have to separate ourselves from false religious teachings if we want to be accepted as 'sons and daughters' of our Heavenly Father.

Then she said to me "do you know that God has a name?" I said, of course he does, it's Jesus. She said "look up Psalm 83:18 in your Bible." I couldn't believe it! I had never heard the personal name of God mentioned once in church....but there it was in my KJV and I had never seen it, nor had anyone ever shown it to me. (Ex3:15)

It was then that I realised that I had to study the Bible for myself. There were so many questions that no one ever seemed to have answers for....like "why do bad things happen to good people?" "Why does God allow so much suffering when he has the power to stop it?" "Why does God let the devil get away with so much?"

Since JW's had shown my sister so many scriptures that had answered her questions, the next time they called I asked for a Bible study too, using my own KJV. They were happy to use any translation I wanted.

I had a million questions and every one of them was answered from the Bible.

Today, I am a teacher of God's word and have been for 40 years. It has required solid study but I love to learn and all JW's attend a school from which they will never graduate. There is always so much more to learn.

I know what I believe and why I believe it. I also know that we are living in the "time of the end" when Jesus said that many awful events would take place. There would be political upheaval and natural disasters; love disappearing from the world. "Critical times, hard to deal with" as the apostle Paul described them. (2 Tim 3:1-5; Matt 24:3-14) Look and see for yourself what is happening in the world.

Despite all of the turmoil that life would bring at this time, Jesus said that his disciples would be carrying out a life saving work that would see "the good news of the kingdom" preached "in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end" would come. (Matt 24:14)

We are all living in a judgment period....one in which the churches are falling down on the job. The assignment was for all Christians to be preachers. (Matt 10:11-15; 28:19, 20)
How many churches are going out to 'search for the worthy ones' to offer them "the good news" that God's kingdom will soon "come" and wipe out wickedness from this earth and replace all corrupt human rulership with God's righteous rulership? (Dan 2:44; Matt 6:9,10; Rev 21:1-4)

Knowledge is what we all need, not empty ritual and repetitious prayers. (Matt 6:7) We cannot afford to be part of satan's counterfeit "weeds". (Matt 13:24-30, 36-40) Satan "transforms himself into an angel of light" (2 Cor 11:14, 15) so as to get people to offend the true God by adopting false worship and pretending that it is Christian.

We cannot be complacent....knowledge is power over the devil. The sword of the spirit is the word of God...it is the best weapon we have against the "machinations of the devil". (Eph 6:10-13)

Take in that knowledge now....start today! Time is running out.

 

[kjw47]

The # 1 rule I have heard is to compare the teachings of Jesus to what one is being taught-- this easily points the way to the one and only religion he is with, the one and only religion on the earth that actually listen to Jesus over mens dogma.



Jesus taught this very important teaching----- Therefore keep on seeking first the kingdom and his(Jehovah) righteousness, and all these other things will be added.

You see Jesus said those two things must be first in ones life( over family,friends,money,pleasures,etc)

Jesus taught us that his Father is his God-John 20:17,,rev 3:12( and at 1 cor 15: 24-28) it teaches Jesus will be in subjection to his God and Father after he hands back the kingdom)

Jesus taught--the lords prayer--- it all belongs to the Father--the name to be hallowed is Jehovah.

Jesus taught-- John 17:1-6-- Jesus said the one who sent him( Father) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD--verse 6 = Jehovah.


it is not very difficult to see who actually listened to Jesus. The ones who are unified in love and peace worldwide while being no part of this world.

As for the rest-1 cor 1:10,, 2 cor 11:12-15 is their reality.

 

[soma]

The String Theory has been evolving since the 1980s. It brings together the most important aspects of quantum field theory to unify all fundamental forces of nature, including gravity. It explores and searches in our intellects for an explanation for unity using physical laws and theories. It predicts that everything in the universe, from galaxies and suns to atoms and subatomic particles, can be broken down to small loops of vibrating strings. These building blocks of our physical world are merely a pattern of vibrations, an ocean of energy.


The Trinity I feel is just words to describe what the mind can’t comprehend. It is a theory also to satisfy the intellect so we can have a spiritual experience beyond the mind of the unity of everything in our world of duality. I feel it is not a theory fixed in stone, but one that is also meant to evolve.

 

[Luke Morningstar]

I voted no, because I don't follow Church doctrine. A relationship with Jesus is constantly evolving from nation to nation, generation to generation, day to day. We can't map Eternity.

However, the Trinity is a perfectly fine way to look at things. Personally it's too limited. God is so much more than three things, but we can't contemplate God without having a starting point, and if that works for you, I believe in it too.

 

[biased]

No. God is One yet the Trinity is true in the sense that those are manifestations of God. This is called Modalism, something I subscribe to. But I feel the Trinity is too limiting. Why stop at 3? I mean I guess I do in cultural context I come from a religious Catholic family.

 

[m.ramdeen]

I haven't been to church in ages and I'm probably not the best person to provide an 'educated' response. :sorry1: But I voted yes, I believe in the trinity stance (1 in 3 / 3 in 1), I can understand where its coming from (even if only vaguely) and I subscribe to it.

For me its gonna boil down to 2 definitions of G-d. Omniscient and Omnipotent :bow:.

We say G-d is omniscient, which means he is everywhere, in each plane of existence simultaneously. :beach:

We say G-d is omnipotent, which means he has the power to accomplish feats that mere mortals can't perceive with our limited minds. :yes:

So at the end of the day if you believe in at least these 2 facets of G-d, then you can get the gist of how the trinity works. Of course to fully understand what's occurring, one needs to spend more time in the Word of G-d. Not just reading the thing like a grade schooler but with them handy "Christian spectacles" (you can order a pair with faith)

I know this doesn't explain anything at all. Just thought I'd put in my $0.02

PS. I dunno why I keep writing G-d instead of God. I just see lots of people doing it and figured its a forum rule or something.