Belief in the Trinity

[JayJayDee]

For me its gonna boil down to 2 definitions of G-d. Omniscient and Omnipotent :bow:.

We say G-d is omniscient, which means he is everywhere, in each plane of existence simultaneously.

We say G-d is omnipotent, which means he has the power to accomplish feats that mere mortals can't perceive with our limited minds.

LOL You really do need to brush up on your Bible there m.ramdeen.

Omniscient actually means all knowing.

Omnipresent I think is what you meant. But nowhere in scripture is God said to be omnipresent. He has a location...."Our Father who art in heaven".

So at the end of the day if you believe in at least these 2 facets of G-d, then you can get the gist of how the trinity works.

Hmmm...perhaps you need to re-evaluate then

Of course to fully understand what's occurring, one needs to spend more time in the Word of G-d. Not just reading the thing like a grade schooler but with them handy "Christian spectacles" (you can order a pair with faith)

Very good advice. The more you understand, the clearer things become.

PS. I dunno why I keep writing G-d instead of God. I just see lots of people doing it and figured its a forum rule or something.

It's a silly superstition. :sad: If it was the right thing to do, the Bible writers would have done it too....they didn't.

My $0.02 as well.....

 

[Shiranui117]

I'm probably not the best person to provide an 'educated' response. :sorry1:

Nor are most of us.

We say G-d is omniscient, which means he is everywhere, in each plane of existence simultaneously. :beach:

Actually, "omniscient" means "all-knowing. "Omnipresent" means to be everywhere at once.

PS. I dunno why I keep writing G-d instead of God. I just see lots of people doing it and figured its a forum rule or something.

It's actually a pious Jewish tradition. The idea is to avoid writing God's name on something which could be thrown away or deleted; destroying something with God's name on it is a big deal to Jews. Most Christians typically don't pay attention to this tradition, and it most certainly isn't a forum rule, but if you personally want to do it, knock yourself out.

 

[m.ramdeen]

:yes:Hohoho..... looks like I had a brain fart moment there. Omnipresent was the word I was actually looking for. Thank you guys. :bow:

Interesting point about being omnipresent there @JayJayDee. I was sure I shot myself in the foot with that stance :cover:. Had to back out the od google search to see what's what
Found some stuff over on Obenbible about omnipresence.

From Obenbible.com

Jeremiah 23:24ESV / 92 helpful votes ​

Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Proverbs 15:3ESV / 82 helpful votes ​

The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Psalm 139:7-10ESV / 67 helpful votes ​

Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.

Colossians 1:17ESV / 24 helpful votes ​

And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Job 34:21ESV / 23 helpful votes ​

“For his eyes are on the ways of a man, and he sees all his steps.

Psalm 139:1-24ESV / 22 helpful votes ​

To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O Lord, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. ...

Matthew 18:20ESV / 17 helpful votes ​

For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

Matthew 28:19-20ESV / 16 helpful votes ​

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Isaiah 57:15ESV / 15 helpful votes ​

For thus says the One who is high and lifted up, who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: “I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with him who is of a contrite and lowly spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly, and to revive the heart of the contrite.

Isaiah 43:2ESV / 13 helpful votes ​

When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you.

Acts 17:27ESV / 11 helpful votes ​

That they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

Just reading a couple of verses on there and I think I get the omnipresence thing. Of course there is no use of the exact word omnipresent in any of those verses. Maybe it wasn't a word at the time? I dunno

But I can get the context and understand how trinity works in those scenarios in the verses. Open mind and Christian goggles :yes:

Wait... WTH?!... 15 posts before I can put up a URL.. mannnnn that's weak

 

[michel]

I do believe in the Trinity. I believe in the Trinity because that is what the Catholic Church teaches. Also, it makes sense to me that God would be complex since He is God. That's my own opinion though.

I think yours is the closest reason to the one I should give, in support of my belief in the trinity.

 

[Shermana]

We say G-d is omniscient, which means he is everywhere, in each plane of existence simultaneously.

We say G-d is omnipotent, which means he has the power to accomplish feats that mere mortals can't perceive with our limited minds.

So at the end of the day if you believe in at least these 2 facets of G-d, then you can get the gist of how the trinity works. Of course to fully understand what's occurring, one needs to spend more time in the Word of G-d. Not just reading the thing like a grade schooler but with them handy "Christian spectacles" (you can order a pair with faith)

The only thing that understanding Omnipotence and "Omnipresence" (Which you meant by Omniscience) is how Trinitarians squiggle out of the idea of using logic, since they can say that God can do and be anything regardless of whether the human mind can understand it. In fact, Omniscience works AGAINST the Trinity. Not only does Jesus not know everything in Human Form, he doesn't know either after being resurrected. Even in his "glorified resurrected form" (thus ruling out any excuses of him merely being in "Human form"), he is still of a different mind and understanding than the being called "God".

If you have true faith and you actually read with a prayerful heart asking God for guidance rather than having "faith" in mainstream orthodox doctrine, you'll naturally arrive that the Trinity (And its sister Modalism, which most Trinitarians actually are without realizing) is hogwash.

 

[lunamoth]

I voted yes, I believe, give my heart to, the mystery of the Trinity. The explanation by Vouthon is very nicely said, better than I could put it, so I'll just refer back to that.

It does not matter to me if the concept of the Trinity was rooted in scripture, evolved slowly over the course of church history or appeared out of whole cloth last week. It is too beautiful to not be true.

 

[SamIam]

I voted no, which should come as no surprise since I'm a mormon. I was not aware that there is a substantial number of Christians who are moving away from the Trinity as an explanation of the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Is there?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I do believe in the Trinity. I believe in the Trinity because that is what the Catholic Church teaches. Also, it makes sense to me that God would be complex since He is God. That's my own opinion though.

I do not see why our JW members have been knocking this post of yours.
They are an Old Testament Unitarian sort of faith anyway.

Your stance is as good as anyones when it comes to a mystery like this.

I sit in a sort of halfway house that sees the problem of how God, His Son and the Holy spirit co exist, as an unknown Mystery. I find the official explanation totally unconvincing.... even gobbledygook. But I don't doubt that such a relationship exists.

I do not believe such things because the church has said so for a very long time. But because it seems the most reasonable of the alternatives.
Equally, to many people, I am a unitarian as I see Jesus and the Holy Spirit as subordinate to God but acting with his full authority.

 

[Shermana]

I voted yes, I believe, give my heart to, the mystery of the Trinity. The explanation by Vouthon is very nicely said, better than I could put it, so I'll just refer back to that.

It does not matter to me if the concept of the Trinity was rooted in scripture, evolved slowly over the course of church history or appeared out of whole cloth last week. It is too beautiful to not be true.

Personally I think the Arian concept and the idea of Wisdom incarnated as the Firstborn created soul too beautiful to not be true.

 

[Shermana]

I voted no, which should come as no surprise since I'm a mormon. I was not aware that there is a substantial number of Christians who are moving away from the Trinity as an explanation of the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Is there?

The orthodox-doctrine Machine is definitely showing some signs of decay and many people are waking up now that they don't have as much direct societal control. We can help speed it up and keep the fire burning in the meantime.

 

[lunamoth]

Personally I think the Arian concept and the idea of Wisdom incarnated as the Firstborn created soul too beautiful to not be true.

I would agree that is a beautiful idea. The regrettable thing is that people would argue and even kill each other over differences in these ideas.

 

[JayJayDee]

Interesting point about being omnipresent there @JayJayDee. I was sure I shot myself in the foot with that stance :cover:. Had to back out the od google search to see what's what
Found some stuff over on Obenbible about omnipresence.

Always a good idea to do some research.

But turning to a pro trinitarians source for answers leaves you open to dispute from the non-trinitarians among us.

How thoroughly have you explored this doctrine and its dubious origins?

That they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,
Just reading a couple of verses on there and I think I get the omnipresence thing. Of course there is no use of the exact word omnipresent in any of those verses. Maybe it wasn't a word at the time? I dunno

God is an entity that we know only from scripture, from the operation of his spirit, and from what we observe about his character revealed in his creation. He is 'all knowing' which means he is also 'all seeing'. Nothing escapes his notice, but he does not have to be present everywhere to know and see what is happening on this little speck in his vast universe.

Many of the scriptures you mentioned highlight this quality, not that he is omnipresent. The Bible gives him a location, which is a place where he resides. (1 Kings 8:49) We mere mortals do not fully comprehend that realm or its inhabitants. All we have is glimpses through visions granted to Bible writers.

But I can get the context and understand how trinity works in those scenarios in the verses. Open mind and Christian goggles

LOL...I had my mind opened about the trinity a long time ago. :yes:

If the trinity was true, then all of God's ancient servants would have served a triune God. Does it strike you as strange that out of the three "Abrahamic" religions, only Christendom (as opposed to Christianity) teaches that God is three and not one. (Deut 6:4) What separated Israel from the gentile nations was their monotheism.

Jesus himself calls his God and Father "the only true God". (John 17:3) He also told the devil that Jehovah "alone" was the one to be worshipped. (Luke 4:8)

Every 'proof text' for the trinity can be dismantled with little difficulty. It is ambiguously implied, not stated categorically. How does a foundation doctrine stand on implication? That spells a weak foundation. (Matt 7:24-27) But most have been convinced with very little proof. :ignore:

Jesus never once claimed to be God Almighty.......not once.

 

[Norrin-6-]

We know how the affirmation of the Trinity came about historically, and we know that 1 John 5:7 is not just the only place we see explicit reference of the Trinity in the Bible but that it wasn't part of the book at all rather it was added in the margins of the text, and was later copied as if it were part of the true text.

I am an ex-Christian (not a believer), though I still think in terms of accepting and rejecting doctrines. I won't ever consider the belief in the Trinity to be an invalid expression of faith, but I'm not personally an advocate of the doctrine. More on the grounds of its historical formation than the fact that the verse referring to it isn't authentic. What's not in the genuine text of the Bible isn't unChristian, I think the Trinity is very Christian, very orthodox. It's not the expression of Christianity that I'm currently seeking, even though I don't consider myself a Christian. I can still seek can't I?

But there are plenty of verses telling us God is one, which is why I'm even mentioning the one verse referring to the Trinity isn't authentic.

 

[SpentaMaynu]

True love for me, as a Christian, is inseparable from the Trinity - the relationship between the three persons in the Godhead - who each selflessly empty themselves for one another. Each of the persons of the Trinity lives completely for the others; each is a complete gift of self to the others. This complete self-giving not only constitutes the individual persons of the Trinity, but also their inseparable oneness. Thus, for Christians the very basis of all reality is the loving communion of persons that is the Holy Trinity. Our ultimate goal is to participate in this life of the Trinity beyond creation and our created being, to become one in that unity of love.

You cannot see God; except manifestations of God. These you can see. These are revelations of God about Himself unto His Creation. Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. Called the express image of the invisible God.

I voted yes. Though I was raised Christian I'm not part of the religion anymore and my view on the Trinity won't be accepted as Christian either. The reason I still believe in the Trinity is first because of Love - in certain churches it is said that the man and his wife is one even though they are two persons with their own ideas, thinking etc; what makes them one is their love for each other. And just so with God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - three seperate persons united in the godhead as Love. Second, God manifest in whatever way He/She/It choose to make known to man. In other words whatever name we give this Great Spirit is almost irrelevant - God will always be God. Therefore I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Mother, Maiden and Crone, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, Osiris, Isis and Horus....:bow:

 

[Xian Catalyst]

I've noticed quite a few people nowadays rejecting the Trinity doctrine. Just wanted to know how prevalent it is here on the forums.

The Trinity doctrine doesn't "save anyone" whatever that means.
It doesn't help anyone in their walk.

In fact it causes dissent and factions, and fights, etc... All of which Paul says in gal 5 is of the flesh.

I rarely pipe in just for those reasons.

 

[chongjasmine]

I believe in the trinity, and I am a christian.
I believe the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is one God, shown in three persons.
I don't understand how God can be one God when He is three persons.
I simply believe in Him.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I wouldn't be Catholic if I didn't believe in the Trinity. To me, it is the greatest Mystery of all mysteries and the greatest example of love that we have. We are called to reflect the love of the Father and the Son for Each Other in our being to all others. Plus, the notion of God Himself dying for His beloved creation is so beautiful and inspiring. I don't know of any other gods that are said to have done the same.

 

[seeking4truth]

I believe that Jesus spoke of a trinity but not as it is interpreted by the catholic church.

Jesus belonged closely to a strict monotheistic religion and culture. He taught that nothing would be changed from that Law.
The concept of trinity which included him as a part of God developed when his teachings were adopted and interpreted by a culture that was polytheistic by Marcion and/or Paul.
His concept of God and theirs being different resulted in the incomprehensible doctrine of trinity being three and at the same time one.

 

[Shiranui117]

I believe that Jesus spoke of a trinity but not as it is interpreted by the catholic church.

Then what do you feel this Trinity spoken of by Jesus is like? Do you have an idea?

 

[seeking4truth]

I think Jesus was speaking of the physical, moral and spiritual aspects of man's personality.

All of us are basically animals but we have risen from being just animals to being moral creatures struggling to live decent lives in harmony with others in peace and with justice. Some of us look for deeper meaning and search for more. Some recognise a spirituality and see a creator as the origin of that and religion as a means to reaching understanding of it.

Jesus teachings leads us to God bringing us through these three stages.