Belief is Nothing When Compared to Experience

[Sunstone]

Suppose I tell you there's a tree in my yard. What difference does it make whether you believe or don't believe there's a tree in my yard? In either case, you have not experienced the tree in my yard. You might as well flip a coin to decide whether you believe or disbelieve there's a tree in my yard -- for all your belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Suppose you tell me there's a god. What difference does it make whether I believe or don't believe there's a god? In either case, I have not experienced that god. I might as well flip a coin to decide whether I believe or don't believe there's a god -- for all my belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Your greatest belief about the tree in my yard is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of the tree than the thought of taking a brisk walk is exercise. My greatest belief about your god -- no matter what it is -- is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of your god than the experience of seeing a dot on a map of France is the experience of having visited Paris.

No matter how hard I study a biology textbook, I cannot lose my virginity by studying it. No matter how hard I study what I think is god, I cannot experience god by studying it. I say, "Yes, but studying a biology textbook prepares me to lose my virginity". But it's not that simple. The textbook can't and won't tell you everything, and you will have little or no idea without the experience itself what has been left out of the textbook. The textbook can give you false expectations. And some of those expectations might even become self-fulfilling prophecies so that you experience what you expect to experience rather than what's really there. And so forth. Beyond a point, your textbook is useless to you as a guide to experience, even though you might not have studied all of it yet.

Do you think belief, by itself, is of any great significance when compared to experience? Why or why not?

 

[Quintessence]

Reasons why belief is not and has never been a cornerstone of my religion. And why I tend to get cranky at how much conversations end up revolving around it.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Suppose I tell you there's a tree in my yard. What difference does it make whether you believe or don't believe there's a tree in my yard? In either case, you have not experienced the tree in my yard. You might as well flip a coin to decide whether you believe or disbelieve there's a tree in my yard -- for all your belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Suppose you tell me there's a god. What difference does it make whether I believe or don't believe there's a god? In either case, I have not experienced that god. I might as well flip a coin to decide whether I believe or don't believe there's a god -- for all my belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Your greatest belief about the tree in my yard is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of the tree than the thought of taking a brisk walk is exercise. My greatest belief about your god -- no matter what it is -- is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of your god than the experience of seeing a dot on a map of France is the experience of having visited Paris.

No matter how hard I study a biology textbook, I cannot lose my virginity by studying it. No matter how hard I study what I think is god, I cannot experience god by studying it. I say, "Yes, but studying a biology textbook prepares me to lose my virginity". But it's not that simple. The textbook can't and won't tell you everything, and you will have little or no idea without the experience itself what has been left out of the textbook. The textbook can give you false expectations. And some of those expectations might even become self-fulfilling prophecies so that you experience what you expect to experience rather than what's really there. And so forth. Beyond a point, your textbook is useless to you as a guide to experience, even though you might not have studied all of it yet.

Do you think belief, by itself, is of any great significance when compared to experience? Why or why not?

Excellent post and point.

I think why there is so much focus on "belief," is that, in fact, very few people have had a substantive experience regarding god, and thus, abstract belief (or, at least the affectation of it) is all they are going on.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Suppose I tell you there's a tree in my yard. What difference does it make whether you believe or don't believe there's a tree in my yard? In either case, you have not experienced the tree in my yard. You might as well flip a coin to decide whether you believe or disbelieve there's a tree in my yard -- for all your belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Suppose you tell me there's a god. What difference does it make whether I believe or don't believe there's a god? In either case, I have not experienced that god. I might as well flip a coin to decide whether I believe or don't believe there's a god -- for all my belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Your greatest belief about the tree in my yard is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of the tree than the thought of taking a brisk walk is exercise. My greatest belief about your god -- no matter what it is -- is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of your god than the experience of seeing a dot on a map of France is the experience of having visited Paris.

No matter how hard I study a biology textbook, I cannot lose my virginity by studying it. No matter how hard I study what I think is god, I cannot experience god by studying it. I say, "Yes, but studying a biology textbook prepares me to lose my virginity". But it's not that simple. The textbook can't and won't tell you everything, and you will have little or no idea without the experience itself what has been left out of the textbook. The textbook can give you false expectations. And some of those expectations might even become self-fulfilling prophecies so that you experience what you expect to experience rather than what's really there. And so forth. Beyond a point, your textbook is useless to you as a guide to experience, even though you might not have studied all of it yet.

Do you think belief, by itself, is of any great significance when compared to experience? Why or why not?

No. I believe many things because I've experienced them. Those things that I haven't experience, I have no reason to believe in them. The only times I'd believe in something I haven't experience is if I were to go into a relationship. That takes a big amount of trust that there will be an experience if one puts trust and effort into the relationship. That "believing it will work out" forsters effort. However, one has to be interested in building that trust so that believe becomes an experience. If not, we can believe whatever we want but it's not substantiated without experience.

Many people experience god not just believe in him. Their beliefs are founded on experience not the other way around. It's true belief means nothing without experience. It doesn't relate to god-religions because belief in god is based on experience of knowing there is a god.

 

[Kemosloby]

If 12 Apostles wrote about the tree in your yard I would want to come see the tree in your yard.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Good thread, again, my friend!

Do you think belief, by itself, is of any great significance when compared to experience? Why or why not?

After reading lots and lots of words, I realized that all I really have is my experiences, my perceptions. All the rest is conceptions, mental constructions to relate the experiences to other experiences and "explain" them--that is, beliefs.

I have now spent years trying to create as simple of conceptions as I can of my experiences, and recognize where my conceptions and beliefs go beyond what I have experienced.

For example, on a couple of occasions in the 58+ years of my life, I have experience a profound sense of unity with my environment, even seeing the connections between the different aspects/things as luminous connections.

For some, this kind of mystic experience leads to the conception of all of the universe being "One" in some sense. For me, it leads to the conclusion that all parts are connected, but they are still "separate" in the experiential sense.

We can construct all kinds of mental conceptual models to organize and explain our experiences, but it is likely they will all be incomplete and/or inaccurate in some ways, no matter how careful and meticulous we are. While the experiences we have, and the memory we have of them, though, are the basis for our constructions and beliefs, it is really those constructions and beliefs that we base our daily lives on.

I'm just trying to cut out the ornate and often too-detailed or otherwise limited conceptions that I have, so that my experiences connect more closely to those conceptions.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Suppose I tell you there's a tree in my yard. What difference does it make whether you believe or don't believe there's a tree in my yard? In either case, you have not experienced the tree in my yard. You might as well flip a coin to decide whether you believe or disbelieve there's a tree in my yard -- for all your belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Suppose you tell me there's a god. What difference does it make whether I believe or don't believe there's a god? In either case, I have not experienced that god. I might as well flip a coin to decide whether I believe or don't believe there's a god -- for all my belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Your greatest belief about the tree in my yard is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of the tree than the thought of taking a brisk walk is exercise. My greatest belief about your god -- no matter what it is -- is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of your god than the experience of seeing a dot on a map of France is the experience of having visited Paris.

No matter how hard I study a biology textbook, I cannot lose my virginity by studying it. No matter how hard I study what I think is god, I cannot experience god by studying it. I say, "Yes, but studying a biology textbook prepares me to lose my virginity". But it's not that simple. The textbook can't and won't tell you everything, and you will have little or no idea without the experience itself what has been left out of the textbook. The textbook can give you false expectations. And some of those expectations might even become self-fulfilling prophecies so that you experience what you expect to experience rather than what's really there. And so forth. Beyond a point, your textbook is useless to you as a guide to experience, even though you might not have studied all of it yet.

Do you think belief, by itself, is of any great significance when compared to experience? Why or why not?

Experience can be misleading as well. People don't always understand what they are experiencing at the time it happened, and memories are not as dependable as most assume.

"Suppose I tell you there's a tree in my yard. What difference does it make whether you believe or don't believe there's a tree in my yard? In either case, you have not experienced the tree in my yard. You might as well flip a coin to decide whether you believe or disbelieve there's a tree in my yard -- for all your belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Suppose you tell me there's a god. What difference does it make whether I believe or don't believe there's a god? In either case, I have not experienced that god. I might as well flip a coin to decide whether I believe or don't believe there's a god -- for all my belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience."

I have seen trees often times in yards yet I have never seen a god, my own experience tells me your first claim is very plausible.

"Do you think belief, by itself, is of any great significance when compared to experience? Why or why not?"

I think they are interactive and often shape each other.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Good points all, and this idea of experience over belief plays out in all sorts of fields. Take criminal investigation, for example - police my have strong suspicions of something, may even believe it, but they won't act until they have evidence - which is basically secondhand experience. And many of the strongest forms of evidence are more distinctly tied to "experience" - like a video or audio tape. Whereas the weaker forms of evidence - like witness testimony - require more belief and may very well need other forms of substantiation.

All pointing to "belief alone" being entirely over-rated. If you ever end up being falsely accused by someone, you'd better hope the authorities don't merely "believe" the accounts of your accusers - but that they go after the more experience-driven evidence.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

This is what I think.

Understanding the reality around us is hard, and there is no single approach or for sure path. Just because you read about something in a book does not necessarily mean you understand it, and just because you were there and saw it also does not necessarily mean you understand it. Neither "experience" or "belief" is a magic key and blind reliance on either can be misleading. To really connect with the fundamental cords of our existence is instead the result of hard work, perseverance and the ability to grow as a person.

 

[Kirran]

Preach, Sunstone.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

If 12 Apostles wrote about the tree in your yard I would want to come see the tree in your yard.

If you can prove that 12 apostles directly wrote any collaborative book then you would have made a archaeological breakthrough.

 

[Nietzsche]

If 12 Apostles wrote about the tree in your yard I would want to come see the tree in your yard.

If I gather twelve people to write a story about how I slayed a dragon, would you want to see me too?

 

[Jeremiahcp]

If I gather twelve people to write a story about how I slayed a dragon, would you want to see me too?

Do you do it in the nude and are there pics?

 

[Nietzsche]

Do you do it in the nude and are there pics?

No. Just a story. But twelve people are saying it happened.

 

[BSM1]

Suppose I tell you there's a tree in my yard. What difference does it make whether you believe or don't believe there's a tree in my yard? In either case, you have not experienced the tree in my yard. You might as well flip a coin to decide whether you believe or disbelieve there's a tree in my yard -- for all your belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Suppose you tell me there's a god. What difference does it make whether I believe or don't believe there's a god? In either case, I have not experienced that god. I might as well flip a coin to decide whether I believe or don't believe there's a god -- for all my belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Your greatest belief about the tree in my yard is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of the tree than the thought of taking a brisk walk is exercise. My greatest belief about your god -- no matter what it is -- is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of your god than the experience of seeing a dot on a map of France is the experience of having visited Paris.

No matter how hard I study a biology textbook, I cannot lose my virginity by studying it. No matter how hard I study what I think is god, I cannot experience god by studying it. I say, "Yes, but studying a biology textbook prepares me to lose my virginity". But it's not that simple. The textbook can't and won't tell you everything, and you will have little or no idea without the experience itself what has been left out of the textbook. The textbook can give you false expectations. And some of those expectations might even become self-fulfilling prophecies so that you experience what you expect to experience rather than what's really there. And so forth. Beyond a point, your textbook is useless to you as a guide to experience, even though you might not have studied all of it yet.

Do you think belief, by itself, is of any great significance when compared to experience? Why or why not?

Sunstone, mi amigo, this is exactly why I say everyone has to find their own truth. I like to think my belief is bolstered by my expectation of experience; and experience, no matter what size or context, confirms my belief. However, this is highly subjective to persons and personalities and not material for proselytizing.

 

[Kemosloby]

If I gather twelve people to write a story about how I slayed a dragon, would you want to see me too?

No, I want to see the dead dragon.

 

[bobhikes]

Suppose I tell you there's a tree in my yard. What difference does it make whether you believe or don't believe there's a tree in my yard? In either case, you have not experienced the tree in my yard. You might as well flip a coin to decide whether you believe or disbelieve there's a tree in my yard -- for all your belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Suppose you tell me there's a god. What difference does it make whether I believe or don't believe there's a god? In either case, I have not experienced that god. I might as well flip a coin to decide whether I believe or don't believe there's a god -- for all my belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Your greatest belief about the tree in my yard is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of the tree than the thought of taking a brisk walk is exercise. My greatest belief about your god -- no matter what it is -- is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of your god than the experience of seeing a dot on a map of France is the experience of having visited Paris.

No matter how hard I study a biology textbook, I cannot lose my virginity by studying it. No matter how hard I study what I think is god, I cannot experience god by studying it. I say, "Yes, but studying a biology textbook prepares me to lose my virginity". But it's not that simple. The textbook can't and won't tell you everything, and you will have little or no idea without the experience itself what has been left out of the textbook. The textbook can give you false expectations. And some of those expectations might even become self-fulfilling prophecies so that you experience what you expect to experience rather than what's really there. And so forth. Beyond a point, your textbook is useless to you as a guide to experience, even though you might not have studied all of it yet.

Do you think belief, by itself, is of any great significance when compared to experience? Why or why not?

My belief is in you, your honesty, your relationship with me, your reason for telling me. I could careless about the tree, I believe because I know you and you want me to believe.

 

[Sunstone]

My belief is in you, your honesty, your relationship with me, your reason for telling me. I could careless about the tree, I believe because I know you and you want me to believe.

That may be true, but how does your belief compare to experience?

 

[Sunstone]

Excellent post and point.

I think why there is so much focus on "belief," is that, in fact, very few people have had a substantive experience regarding god, and thus, abstract belief (or, at least the affectation of it) is all they are going on.

I think you're right. And yet you have religions, like Shinto, that have no theology, no dogma, and no requirement to believe anything. So belief does not seem to be an absolute requirement for religiosity.

 

[Sunstone]

It doesn't relate to god-religions because belief in god is based on experience of knowing there is a god.

Putting aside the question of how you can know whether there is or isn't a god without experience, how is the "experience of knowing there is a god", logically any different from no actual experience of god at all?