Belief is Nothing When Compared to Experience

[Thief]

Perhaps YOUR God is an ET; mine (if I actually acknowledged them as such, which I don't at this time) are very much immanent in the world, here and now. And maybe the rest of the solar system, too, but not much beyond that--at least, I don't see how I (as a human) could tell the difference between some universal deity and one much closer and smaller.

God is not human
and not of this world

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

God is not human
and not of this world

Uhhhh...yeah, right. Boy you sure convinced me

 

[james bond]

I prefer the list of motivations of mind
religion, social, military and economics

so many people believe in Someone Greater
and so adhere to the teachings of that belief
religious motivations
the leaders stand behind pulpit to convince you....god wants you to (whatever)

some have no such inclination and do unto others for the sake of social living
and the leaders stand behind podium and convince the masses.....I have a plan (and i am not a crook)

then comes military.....moving a lot of people real quick
the leaders declare a cause and then declare war

last but not least ...money
there is money in it for me (the ceo).....there's a paycheck for you
and the time clock is over there

Now that you mentioned it, I think worldview and motivations are different. One can be any worldview and be motivated by some of your criteria. An infant or child can have a worldview and not have the motivations you mentioned. Other motivations can be political and hedonism such as what Epicurus preached.

 

[Thief]

Uhhhh...yeah, right. Boy you sure convinced me

so you think God is NOT an e.t.?
hehehe

 

[Twilight Hue]

Something about taking something at face value.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

so you think God is NOT an e.t.?
hehehe

hehehe
I don't believe in a universal omnimax creator deity--or if there is, there is no way I can comprehend it. So "god" is not an ET, nor an ExtraUniversal. For me. Your mileage my vary.

On the other hand, I believe that there are lots of spirits, and some are very large and powerful and some might not have much or anything to do with Earth and its inhabitants, so those would be "ETs". And some of them might be from what we call "other dimensions," and so they might be at least in part "EUs."

hehehe

 

[Thief]

hehehe
I don't believe in a universal omnimax creator deity--or if there is, there is no way I can comprehend it. So "god" is not an ET, nor an ExtraUniversal. For me. Your mileage my vary.

On the other hand, I believe that there are lots of spirits, and some are very large and powerful and some might not have much or anything to do with Earth and its inhabitants, so those would be "ETs". And some of them might be from what we call "other dimensions," and so they might be at least in part "EUs."

hehehe

any chance that One of them might have a willfulness.....that cannot be set aside?
an Almighty

 

[Nakosis]

Putting aside the question of how you can know whether there is or isn't a god without experience, how is the "experience of knowing there is a god", logically any different from no actual experience of god at all?

First, I pretty much agree with you OP. However keep in mind that many folks I've talked to believe they have experienced God. If not God some supernatural experience of some sort. Pentecostals are certain they have direct communication with God.

Folks have had experiences that are as real to them as your experience of the tree in your backyard. I've had numerous of these experiences myself, I just believe that the brain is quite capable of providing these experiences. The existence of God is not necessary to experience the existence of God.

The reality of these experiences is such that asking folks to deny their personal experience of God is akin to asking you to deny your personal experience of the tree in your backyard.

I feel most folks would be surprised at the reality of the experience that the mind is capable of creating. Especially if you believe in something strongly enough.

No point is expecting people to deny the reality of their personal spiritual experience. To them, to many of them, is has for them the same reality as that of your tree. Without having experienced the reality of these "spiritual" experiences I imagine it'd be very difficult for other folks to understand.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

any chance that One of them might have a willfulness.....that cannot be set aside?
an Almighty

of course there is a chance...there's also a chance that a great many of them have willfulness which cannot be set aside...and many of them are very mighty, when compared to us humans...but again, I can't comprehend except by the vaguest metaphors an "Almighty." Again, there might be one...

...but, can you tell the difference, at a foot's distance, which is brighter, the 100 million candlepower searchlight or the 100 billion candlepower searchlight?

 

[Hawkins]

Suppose I tell you there's a tree in my yard.

Do you think belief, by itself, is of any great significance when compared to experience? Why or why not?

It's so simple, even by your own example!

If there WAS a tree in your yard some 50 years ago when you were still a kid. Then it was dug up and completely removed without a trace. Now you are, say 60 years old, and how can you let me experience it to tell that there's ever such a tree in your yard?

 

[chinu]

Do you think belief, by itself, is of any great significance when compared to experience? Why or why not?

One is THIRSTY from such a long time in the desert, its very much hot, searching water here and there. May be, he can die of thirst because there isn't a single drop of water in that desert except the water-well which is in the home of sunstone's back-yard in that desert

You said; In this whole desert there's a only water-well of fresh water in your back-yard

Now, the person doesn't know that you are saying true or false.

But, in this situation belief is of great significance before experience

Yes, everyone on this earth has a desire to know God. But, there are very rare who are Thirsty-of-God.

And, of course there's a Saint-Sunstone on this desert-earth who has such a well in his back-yard for such thirsty peoples


BTW.. English is not my first language. But, I have done my level best to explain.

Cheers!!!

 

[Thief]

of course there is a chance...there's also a chance that a great many of them have willfulness which cannot be set aside...and many of them are very mighty, when compared to us humans...but again, I can't comprehend except by the vaguest metaphors an "Almighty." Again, there might be one...

...but, can you tell the difference, at a foot's distance, which is brighter, the 100 million candlepower searchlight or the 100 billion candlepower searchlight?

duh....

and when you double the distance the reduction is how much?

(I know about it)

but regardless of distance (or candle power)
ONE will stand with His will over all others
Almighty

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

ONE will stand with His will over all others
Almighty

And you know this how, exactly?

 

[Thief]

And you know this how, exactly?

straightforward reason
in the scheme of superlatives.....there is only ONE Almighty

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

straightforward reason
in the scheme of superlatives.....there is only ONE Almighty

hmmm. Sure, it's possible to construct such a reasoned belief...without bothering to have any validation in reality.

The reality is that neither you nor I nor any human is going to be able to tell whether or not that experience that you attribute to The One Almighty is really from "Him," or maybe from one that is several orders of magnitude lesser than an almighty, but still many orders of magnitude greater than humans...

It appears that you are saying that belief is really more important than experience: you believe that there must be an Almighty, therefore there is an Almighty.

Personally, I don't see any necessity for an Almighty; there might be one, but I don't see any way that a human could tell whether there is or is not for certain, and certainly my experiences do not support the conclusion that there Must Be, or even that There Is, such an entity.

 

[Thief]

hmmm. Sure, it's possible to construct such a reasoned belief...without bothering to have any validation in reality.

The reality is that neither you nor I nor any human is going to be able to tell whether or not that experience that you attribute to The One Almighty is really from "Him," or maybe from one that is several orders of magnitude lesser than an almighty, but still many orders of magnitude greater than humans...

It appears that you are saying that belief is really more important than experience: you believe that there must be an Almighty, therefore there is an Almighty.

Personally, I don't see any necessity for an Almighty; there might be one, but I don't see any way that a human could tell whether there is or is not for certain, and certainly my experiences do not support the conclusion that there Must Be, or even that There Is, such an entity.

without an Almighty (and hopefully a benign Almighty).....

we stand from our flesh into an eternity of chaos
everyone fessing over whose will is greater

no peace

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

without an Almighty (and hopefully a benign Almighty).....

we stand from our flesh into an eternity of chaos
everyone fessing over whose will is greater

no peace

So, to connect this back to the OP, you seem to be saying that belief is NOT 'nothing when compared to experience.'

In other words, as I tried to parse your veiled concepts, belief is more important than experience.

I perceive so far that you have reasoned that there must be a universal deity, and therefore you believe in it, BUT you have not provided any comments to suggest that you have experienced said deity, nor how you would recognize said deity if you were to encounter it, or recognize a lesser but very mighty deity should you encounter that.

By contrast, while I can follow that reasoning, to me it is ONLY reasoning, because I have never experienced (to my knowledge--because how would I know?) an almighty deity, or even one several orders of magnitude less almighty. The largest spirits/powers I've encountered are operating a few orders of magnitude above humans...maybe on the scale of the solar system...but as far as I can tell, nowhere near a universal almighty.

And I really doubt any human's ability to recognize the difference between something that is 95 percent almighty and 100 percent almighty, to use your terms.

 

[Thief]

So, to connect this back to the OP, you seem to be saying that belief is NOT 'nothing when compared to experience.'

In other words, as I tried to parse your veiled concepts, belief is more important than experience.

I perceive so far that you have reasoned that there must be a universal deity, and therefore you believe in it, BUT you have not provided any comments to suggest that you have experienced said deity, nor how you would recognize said deity if you were to encounter it, or recognize a lesser but very mighty deity should you encounter that.

By contrast, while I can follow that reasoning, to me it is ONLY reasoning, because I have never experienced (to my knowledge--because how would I know?) an almighty deity, or even one several orders of magnitude less almighty. The largest spirits/powers I've encountered are operating a few orders of magnitude above humans...maybe on the scale of the solar system...but as far as I can tell, nowhere near a universal almighty.

And I really doubt any human's ability to recognize the difference between something that is 95 percent almighty and 100 percent almighty, to use your terms.

EXCELLENT!!!!!

but as we lack 'proof'.....all we can do is reason

and if we are sufficient, we will know what stands over us as we stand from the dust we are made of

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Suppose I tell you there's a tree in my yard. What difference does it make whether you believe or don't believe there's a tree in my yard? In either case, you have not experienced the tree in my yard. You might as well flip a coin to decide whether you believe or disbelieve there's a tree in my yard -- for all your belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Suppose you tell me there's a god. What difference does it make whether I believe or don't believe there's a god? In either case, I have not experienced that god. I might as well flip a coin to decide whether I believe or don't believe there's a god -- for all my belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Your greatest belief about the tree in my yard is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of the tree than the thought of taking a brisk walk is exercise. My greatest belief about your god -- no matter what it is -- is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of your god than the experience of seeing a dot on a map of France is the experience of having visited Paris.

No matter how hard I study a biology textbook, I cannot lose my virginity by studying it. No matter how hard I study what I think is god, I cannot experience god by studying it. I say, "Yes, but studying a biology textbook prepares me to lose my virginity". But it's not that simple. The textbook can't and won't tell you everything, and you will have little or no idea without the experience itself what has been left out of the textbook. The textbook can give you false expectations. And some of those expectations might even become self-fulfilling prophecies so that you experience what you expect to experience rather than what's really there. And so forth. Beyond a point, your textbook is useless to you as a guide to experience, even though you might not have studied all of it yet.

Do you think belief, by itself, is of any great significance when compared to experience? Why or why not?

Belief underpins and defines experience. In the case of "experiencing God", it's the person's belief in God that allows them to interpret their experience as experiencing God and not something else.

You don't have experience without belief; you only have sensation. To translate sensation to experience, you need to interpret it through the filter of your beliefs.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Perhaps, but no matter what the 12 wrote, that would not substitute for an experience of the tree.

"Substitute" in what sense? A botanist may be just as able to diagnose the disease a tree has by talking to someone over the phone as by seeing the tree in person.

And what do you mean by "an experience of the tree"? Seeing or touching it? That will give one perception of the tree, but it may be more superficial than what a person could gain by reading about plant circulation and respiration in a biology textbook, reflecting on it, and trying to imagine this process from the tree's perspective.