Belief is Nothing When Compared to Experience

[bobhikes]

That may be true, but how does your belief compare to experience?

My Belief extends my experiences with your experiences. Knowing you I can get an idea of the tree in your backyard. What type, how big the relative look, where its located. If we know each other well when I go to your backyard there will be very few surprises.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Putting aside the question of how you can know whether there is or isn't a god without experience, how is the "experience of knowing there is a god", logically any different from no actual experience of god at all?

One says there is an experience that tells a believer god exist. The other without the experience, god does not exist to that person at all.

I don't understand the question.

 

[Sunstone]

My Belief extends my experiences with your experiences. Knowing you I can get an idea of the tree in your backyard. What type, how big the relative look, where its located. If we know each other well when I go to your backyard there will be very few surprises.

So if I were a virgin, and you told me what sex was like, would you still call me a virgin after telling me? How does belief compare to experience?

 

[Sunstone]

This is what I think.

Understanding the reality around us is hard, and there is no single approach or for sure path. Just because you read about something in a book does not necessarily mean you understand it, and just because you were there and saw it also does not necessarily mean you understand it. Neither "experience" or "belief" is a magic key and blind reliance on either can be misleading. To really connect with the fundamental cords of our existence is instead the result of hard work, perseverance and the ability to grow as a person.

Very true, in so far as it goes, but also beside the point. The point -- to put it somewhat superficially -- is that belief is no substitute for experience.

 

[bobhikes]

So if I were a virgin, and you told me what sex was like, would you still call me a virgin after telling me? How does belief compare to experience?

That would depend on how detailed the description was and how well I knew you but yes, if it were detailed enough and we knew each other well enough I could consider you not a virgin(at least a full virgin) physically you would still be virgin. Sex however is as mental as it is physical and at least a large portion of the mental aspect could be fulfilled. In fact a male and perhaps a female could actually be made to ejaculate without physical contact.

Belief is based on faith in experiences not the experiences themselves. I don't believe in North Plainfield, NJ I live in North Plainfield NJ. I believe you are a person, yet have no experiences to base that on. I have never met any person I have debated on this forum. I do not know your real name or looked at a photo of you. Once I meet you I would no longer say I believe in you. I would say I know you.

I assume you believe me to be a human male, yet what real experiences do we share?

 

[Sunstone]

If 12 Apostles wrote about the tree in your yard I would want to come see the tree in your yard.

Perhaps, but no matter what the 12 wrote, that would not substitute for an experience of the tree.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Very true, in so far as it goes, but also beside the point. The point -- to put it somewhat superficially -- is that belief is no substitute for experience.

I think you are making a mistake trying to draw such a black and white line. The world simply does not divide up that neatly.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

@Sunstone as always, you don't disappoint. Excellent OP.

My belief is in you, your honesty, your relationship with me, your reason for telling me. I could careless about the tree, I believe because I know you and you want me to believe.

Exactly. Belief is greatly strengthened by the trust that the listener gives to the talker/preacher. For most of us, our first religious "understandings" are explained to us by our parents: both from their words and their actions (going to worship/respect given to preachers/value shown for scriptures/etc...). Which is why we almost invariably tend to take up the religious stances held by our parent figures.
....which leads to @BSM1's point....

Sunstone, mi amigo, this is exactly why I say everyone has to find their own truth. I like to think my belief is bolstered by my expectation of experience; and experience, no matter what size or context, confirms my belief. However, this is highly subjective to persons and personalities and not material for proselytizing.

Once you have a foundational belief, then you are looking at the world through glasses tinted to that particular shade. You see/witness/experience events, great or small, as proof positive that god (as you were raised to see him) is right there in front of you.....whether in a pretty flower, in the organized activities of ants, in a near death experience, etc...etc....

To your question @Sunstone : Of course experience trumps belief every time. But by holding their preconceived ideals, the believer considers every experience as a divine experience; and proof of their religion's righteousness. To the point that @Carlita espoused.....

........Many people experience god not just believe in him. Their beliefs are founded on experience not the other way around. It's true belief means nothing without experience. It doesn't relate to god-religions because belief in god is based on experience of knowing there is a god.

They believe in a god. They see 'proof' EVERYWHERE. Therefore they know there is a god, through their "experience" of god.

In that way, belief will (almost) always trump experience. Open minds do occur, but they are uncommon, especially among believers.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Sunstone as always, you don't disappoint. Excellent OP.

Exactly. Belief is greatly strengthened by the trust that the listener gives to the talker/preacher. For most of us, our first religious "understandings" are explained to us by our parents: both from their words and their actions (going to worship/respect given to preachers/value shown for scriptures/etc...). Which is why we almost invariably tend to take up the religious stances held by our parent figures.
....which leads to @BSM1's point....Once you have a foundational belief, then you are looking at the world through glasses tinted to that particular shade. You see/witness/experience events, great or small, as proof positive that god (as you were raised to see him) is right there in front of you.....whether in a pretty flower, in the organized activities of ants, in a near death experience, etc...etc....

To your question @Sunstone : Of course experience trumps belief every time. But by holding their preconceived ideals, the @Carlita espoused.....They believe in a god. They see 'proof' EVERYWHERE. Therefore they know there is a god, through their "experience" of god.

In that way, belief will (almost) always trump experience. Open minds do occur, but they are uncommon, especially among believers.

I know a lot of believers if not all that base their belief on knowledge of god's existence not the other way around. I've only heard some of the protestant realms focus on just belief or faith. However, I feel that's watered down christianity.

The foundation of belief (or faith, most say) is the knowledge of god's existence. Once they have knowledge, they have a reason to trust in what he wants them to do. I agree with the OP, it starts with experience/knowledge and one just can't "believe" something without experience. The claim of most christians is that they don't believe because they hope but they believe because they know. They use belief, faith, and trust interchangeably because they interpret their experiences as knowledge and proof rather than relying on external proof like others I see here ask for.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

...... it starts with experience/knowledge and one just can't "believe" something without experience. The claim of most christians is that they don't believe because they hope but they believe because they know. They use belief, faith, and trust interchangeably because they interpret their experiences as knowledge and proof rather than relying on external proof like others I see here ask for.

Yes. They are interchanging (mincing) words, belief and knowledge. They are SO CERTAIN in their belief, that they ABSOLUTELY equate that (in their minds) to "knowledge".

I believe that my wife would never cheat on me. I REALLY, REALLY believe in that. A belief so deep and certain that I can say that "I know" that my wife won't cheat on me.

Going to @Sunstone's yard and seeing the tree.... and examining the tree.....testing the tree's existence thoroughly.....that is not "external proof". That IS proof. Only that TRUE experience is knowledge. No matter my deep, unwavering, heart-felt trust in all things @Sunstone says (don't let it go to your head cat-boy), it is still just a degree of belief/faith till REAL proof is experienced.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Your greatest belief about the tree in my yard is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of the tree than ...

​

Experience both informs and misinforms belief. My 'experience' tells me that "whatever begins to exist has a cause" (Kalam). What might be inferred from this experience is the subject of an enormous amount of philosophical ink. Meanwhile, the world is awash with those who claim to have experienced God.

The question is not whether a belief is profound but whether it is founded. At issue is not whether one can point to an experience but whether that experience is properly understood,

 

[arthra]

Suppose I tell you there's a tree in my yard. What difference does it make whether you believe or don't believe there's a tree in my yard? In either case, you have not experienced the tree in my yard. You might as well flip a coin to decide whether you believe or disbelieve there's a tree in my yard -- for all your belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.
Suppose you tell me there's a god. What difference does it make whether I believe or don't believe there's a god? In either case, I have not experienced that god. I might as well flip a coin to decide whether I believe or don't believe there's a god -- for all my belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

I have a tree in my yard ... an orange tree that is now about five foot high. Four years ago a Baha'i friend of ours gave us this little sprig of a tree in a milk carton ... It was then ohhh maybe three inches in length. It came from Shiraz, Iran and was cultivated from a tree that had been planted years before in the court yard of the house of Siyyid Ali Muhammad Shirazi known as the "Bab" or the Gate. That house was destroyed by fanatics but the followers of the Bab were able to save some of the seeds from the orange tree in the courtyard of the Bab and share them with the friends as far away as California... and so a lovely orange tree is in my yard.. and the Bab and His teachings continue in our hearts.

 

[QuestioningMind]

They believe in a god. They see 'proof' EVERYWHERE. Therefore they know there is a god, through their "experience" of god.

PRECISELY! My older brother is convinced that the Mother Ship is coming for him and the other believers any day now. He sees the 'signs' constantly, often in the lyrics to songs. It's agonizing to watch him twist the most ridiculous things into some sort of deep revelation.

 

[Philos]

Hi,

I suspect that experience is the big muddle in this never ending tug between theists and atheists.

As an agnostic I have been in and out of religious experience. It's like a light switch for me. Click it one way and I feel the world in a religious way, click it the other and I feel it secular. What is impossible is to feel it both ways together - can't be done.

P.

 

[LuisDantas]

Many people experience god not just believe in him. Their beliefs are founded on experience not the other way around. It's true belief means nothing without experience. It doesn't relate to god-religions because belief in god is based on experience of knowing there is a god.

I beg to differ.

What you say is what should be true, but very often is not. There are many people who actually demand others to "admit" belief, for instance.

 

[LuisDantas]

Do you think belief, by itself, is of any great significance when compared to experience? Why or why not?

No, of course not. God-beliefs are something of a special case... but only because they are inherently reliant on personal stances.

 

[Kenny]

Suppose I tell you there's a tree in my yard. What difference does it make whether you believe or don't believe there's a tree in my yard? In either case, you have not experienced the tree in my yard. You might as well flip a coin to decide whether you believe or disbelieve there's a tree in my yard -- for all your belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Suppose you tell me there's a god. What difference does it make whether I believe or don't believe there's a god? In either case, I have not experienced that god. I might as well flip a coin to decide whether I believe or don't believe there's a god -- for all my belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Your greatest belief about the tree in my yard is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of the tree than the thought of taking a brisk walk is exercise. My greatest belief about your god -- no matter what it is -- is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of your god than the experience of seeing a dot on a map of France is the experience of having visited Paris.

No matter how hard I study a biology textbook, I cannot lose my virginity by studying it. No matter how hard I study what I think is god, I cannot experience god by studying it. I say, "Yes, but studying a biology textbook prepares me to lose my virginity". But it's not that simple. The textbook can't and won't tell you everything, and you will have little or no idea without the experience itself what has been left out of the textbook. The textbook can give you false expectations. And some of those expectations might even become self-fulfilling prophecies so that you experience what you expect to experience rather than what's really there. And so forth. Beyond a point, your textbook is useless to you as a guide to experience, even though you might not have studied all of it yet.

Do you think belief, by itself, is of any great significance when compared to experience? Why or why not?

Isn't that a "what came first, the hen or the egg"?

I experienced God because I first believed.

Hasn't every gold medalist believed first before they experienced it? How many gold medalists experienced the gold medal and believed afterward?

 

[Fool]

Suppose I tell you there's a tree in my yard. What difference does it make whether you believe or don't believe there's a tree in my yard? In either case, you have not experienced the tree in my yard. You might as well flip a coin to decide whether you believe or disbelieve there's a tree in my yard -- for all your belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Suppose you tell me there's a god. What difference does it make whether I believe or don't believe there's a god? In either case, I have not experienced that god. I might as well flip a coin to decide whether I believe or don't believe there's a god -- for all my belief or disbelief matters when compared with experience.

Your greatest belief about the tree in my yard is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of the tree than the thought of taking a brisk walk is exercise. My greatest belief about your god -- no matter what it is -- is no more profound when it comes to an actual experience of your god than the experience of seeing a dot on a map of France is the experience of having visited Paris.

No matter how hard I study a biology textbook, I cannot lose my virginity by studying it. No matter how hard I study what I think is god, I cannot experience god by studying it. I say, "Yes, but studying a biology textbook prepares me to lose my virginity". But it's not that simple. The textbook can't and won't tell you everything, and you will have little or no idea without the experience itself what has been left out of the textbook. The textbook can give you false expectations. And some of those expectations might even become self-fulfilling prophecies so that you experience what you expect to experience rather than what's really there. And so forth. Beyond a point, your textbook is useless to you as a guide to experience, even though you might not have studied all of it yet.

Do you think belief, by itself, is of any great significance when compared to experience? Why or why not?

belief is important. without it there can be no discovery, or experience, of anything not observable to the eye in general.

without the belief that colds might be cause by microscopic things, no one would have invented the microscope. without belief that there might be things to see beyond the naked eye's range of vision the telescope might not have been invented.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I beg to differ.

What you say is what should be true, but very often is not. There are many people who actually demand others to "admit" belief, for instance.

That's not how christianity or any religion for that matter works. It's based on practice and experience not solely belief.

You guys are defining a religion(s) based on the people rather than look at the religion to see what the people should belief.

If you don't believe god exist, how will you experience his presence. That's like saying I feel love from my girlfriend who I don't have. That's silly.

 

[LuisDantas]

That's not how christianity or any religion for that matter works. It's based on practice and experience not solely belief.

With all due respect, you are asking me to disregard what I know of in person.

That is not going to happen out of your claim that it is not so alone.

You guys are defining a religion(s) based on the people rather than look at the religion to see what the people should belief.

I am not sure that I approve of such a stance, so I guess that I am indeed. It is not for religion to say what people "should" believe.

If you don't believe god exist, how will you experience his presence.

In the typical situation, I will not, and therefore I will be forced to lie about it, even to myself - but definitely to family and church-friends.

That is a very common, serious and self-inflicted trap for Christianity, created by its frequent insistence in requiring both proselistism and belief in God.

That's like saying I feel love from my girlfriend who I don't have. That's silly.

Why, yes, it certainly is silly.