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Belief!
- Thread starter zenzero
- Start date
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
All enduring religions exist due in some way originally to some prophet, avatar, or messenger of God.
This can't be proven to those who willingly disbelieve (or believe for that matter) if they have yet no direct experience of the truth of such a claim.
The truth or otherwise of the validity of prophets is a subjective understanding based on a direct real experience, not an indirect verbal narrative by another. However this does not necessarily mean that a verbal transmission is not a fair representation of a 'fact', but that 'fact' is only proven to be so when it has subjectively revealed itself to be real.
I don't particularly believe in prophets, avatars or messengers. In fact, I tend to doubt those who claim to be any of those things.
Their messages, however, should be analyzed on their own methods merits. In so doing, I can conclude, for instance, that Shinram Shonin had a healthy, perceptive mind, for his writings are very deep indeed.
Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if those people do exist or did exist at some point. We all should take the opportunity to learn healthy dharma when it presents itself. Actually meeting an Awakened or something similar would be an exciting experience, but it is not really needed or even important.
That said, I would expect to recognize such a being if I ever met one, for much the same reasons I recognize other types of masters of some subject - because they show knowledge and skill. I would also expect a true prophet/avatar/messenger to be supernaturally perceptive and intuitive and to adjust to any new situation in a rather impressive way, as well as to be a good listener and a considerate, careful speaker.
A suficiently good and inspired Dharma Teacher would perhaps be impossible to tell apart from such a being for all practical purposes. And maybe that is all they ever where were. I have no problem with that.
Their messages, however, should be analyzed on their own methods merits. In so doing, I can conclude, for instance, that Shinram Shonin had a healthy, perceptive mind, for his writings are very deep indeed.
Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if those people do exist or did exist at some point. We all should take the opportunity to learn healthy dharma when it presents itself. Actually meeting an Awakened or something similar would be an exciting experience, but it is not really needed or even important.
That said, I would expect to recognize such a being if I ever met one, for much the same reasons I recognize other types of masters of some subject - because they show knowledge and skill. I would also expect a true prophet/avatar/messenger to be supernaturally perceptive and intuitive and to adjust to any new situation in a rather impressive way, as well as to be a good listener and a considerate, careful speaker.
A suficiently good and inspired Dharma Teacher would perhaps be impossible to tell apart from such a being for all practical purposes. And maybe that is all they ever where were. I have no problem with that.
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life.is.ravishing
Loving life...
In Bible times, there were many prophets of God. I don't see why that should be any different today.
Can this be proven? No.
Can this be proven? No.
zenzero
Its only a Label
Friend ben,
Thank you as that is exactly the point towards which the thread has been started that needs to be raised and established.
The followers of the prophets/ avatars/messengers themselves have not been enlightened and the TRUTH not realised and so at this moment in time in evolution for the dharma wheel to move forward majority of the humans need to realise the fact that the scriptures are dead unless they themselves realise the Truth they point towards.
Love & rgds
Thank you as that is exactly the point towards which the thread has been started that needs to be raised and established.
The followers of the prophets/ avatars/messengers themselves have not been enlightened and the TRUTH not realised and so at this moment in time in evolution for the dharma wheel to move forward majority of the humans need to realise the fact that the scriptures are dead unless they themselves realise the Truth they point towards.
Love & rgds
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Are you a prophet?
In professing your beliefs as you do....
Do you believe in a higher power? Does it hold a thought? as you do?
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I tend to agree with Ben D. I would argue that perhaps all religions were inspired on some level by God, due to the way of Ma'at (justice, order, unity) being within all. I also agree all these religions were given by a prophet, avatar, or messenger, sometimes on a national scale. The Nisuts (Pharoahs) of ancient Egypt, for example, were a long line of messengers. Two Egyptian deities we had come in human form at one time, as avatars, though we wouldn't use that word, are Horus and Osiris. I think it possible and likely that other human manifestations of God appeared in other lands.
I disagree. Religions and their initiators are inspired by wisdom, not (necessarily) by deities.
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Well Luis I would argue that the original Hindu view of the dharma is just like the Kemetic view of Ma'at, the dharma is something within us, our true natures, the unalterable law of life, and we deviate from it.
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Greetings!
Many of the proofs are subjective, and consist of the following:
Best,
Bruce
Many of the proofs are subjective, and consist of the following:
- the individual's own life,
- the "Book" provided; i.e., the laws and teachings,
- the effects on the world of the religion the individual has revealed,
- the fact that this religion itself survives and endures for centuries or millenia, while false ones tend to fade and disappear over time,
- as lesser proofs:
- earlier prophecies fulfilled
- new prophecies made personally and since fulfilled.
Best,
Bruce
So Dharma is pre-extant, as opposed to a human (or perhaps transcendent) creation?
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Well Luis that's certainly how Hindus view the Sanatan Dharma (law of life). Where did the concept of dharma come from first? Hindus or Buddhism?
RiverSeed
Plodding Along
I think that, as I read this, I want to have some special insight to say, or to speak some great insight or wisdom. Many times in a conversation, a great wisdom, the greatest wisdom is to say that it "comes from god."
But I think the best wisdom that we can have is actually the most down to earth. Not something that is beyond our understanding or that comes from god, but that is down here on earth. When we look at prophets, there is a temptation to get caught up in lofty ego and big headedness. Big men and ideals creates large distances between the god and his people.
Probably the best god is the one that is right here, and not a god at all.
But I think the best wisdom that we can have is actually the most down to earth. Not something that is beyond our understanding or that comes from god, but that is down here on earth. When we look at prophets, there is a temptation to get caught up in lofty ego and big headedness. Big men and ideals creates large distances between the god and his people.
Probably the best god is the one that is right here, and not a god at all.
Most certainly NOT from Buddhism, although not necessarily from Hindus either (not that I have a better guess, mind you).
I fail to understand why you ask that, however. Are you implying that the original, most ancient concept is somehow purer?
lemo
Member
Zenzero,
My answer is in your question. People believe in prophets & avatars because of BELIEF. I think in a sense that, Truth is what one knows and feels, a man of intelligence..if God is there, he will re-recognize it.The belief system, somehow, has a cloud of DOUBT in it when people choose to believe in something.
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zenzero
Its only a Label
Friend lemo,
You are right but need to bring further clarity in the understanding.
Truth can only be LIVED. One has to BE.
If one is using limited faculties of the BEING that one is like using just the heart or the mind or the ears, TRUTH will not be lived as it is distorted this way.
A Being is the essence which is the same as the source; so every individual is a potential avatar/prophet/messenger provided he reaches that potential of Being THAT by understanding/realization/etc.
Normally what happens that humans utilize only a part of the potential and so miss that opportunity like a singer uses only the voice and all his attention is focused on his voice. Each only tries to be a professional by maximizing only a part of the potential one has. Individual even as professionals can further realize his potential of his BEING-NESS only if the maximization of the potential is not through his desires.
One can still realise his potential following only one part of that BEING that one is provided it is not pursued by any desire for any gain as the desire is bound to draw a line which will fall short of the full potential.
Prophets/avatars/messengers/etc have realised the full potential of that BEING-NESS that one is and have indicated how others too can but most being blinded by their limited visions due to their own desires become blind followers as the only can understand a part of the message.
e.g. Watch the finger pointing towards the moon.
Some will watch the finger
some will watch the moon
some will just watch the direction of the pointer
but only few understands that it is only a finger pointing towards the moon indicating a general direction towards something and all of these are in motion, nothing is permanent as the moon is changing its direction so is everything. And everything is simply energy.
God is just a concept to understand that the whole existence nothing but energy.
More as we go along.
Love & rgds
You are right but need to bring further clarity in the understanding.
Truth can only be LIVED. One has to BE.
If one is using limited faculties of the BEING that one is like using just the heart or the mind or the ears, TRUTH will not be lived as it is distorted this way.
A Being is the essence which is the same as the source; so every individual is a potential avatar/prophet/messenger provided he reaches that potential of Being THAT by understanding/realization/etc.
Normally what happens that humans utilize only a part of the potential and so miss that opportunity like a singer uses only the voice and all his attention is focused on his voice. Each only tries to be a professional by maximizing only a part of the potential one has. Individual even as professionals can further realize his potential of his BEING-NESS only if the maximization of the potential is not through his desires.
One can still realise his potential following only one part of that BEING that one is provided it is not pursued by any desire for any gain as the desire is bound to draw a line which will fall short of the full potential.
Prophets/avatars/messengers/etc have realised the full potential of that BEING-NESS that one is and have indicated how others too can but most being blinded by their limited visions due to their own desires become blind followers as the only can understand a part of the message.
e.g. Watch the finger pointing towards the moon.
Some will watch the finger
some will watch the moon
some will just watch the direction of the pointer
but only few understands that it is only a finger pointing towards the moon indicating a general direction towards something and all of these are in motion, nothing is permanent as the moon is changing its direction so is everything. And everything is simply energy.
God is just a concept to understand that the whole existence nothing but energy.
More as we go along.
Love & rgds
zenzero
Its only a Label
Friend Bruce,
Firstly you have used your own understanding and placed the words [I'like] in place of only *like*.
This is from where falsification starts; as those reading your posts will immediately understand that this is personal when the word *like* is impersonal and is meant for a common cause.
However moving since you have not mentioned about your personal belief on any prophet/avatar/etc and kept provided some general guidelines for belief and wherein you also mention that they are subjective and too many holes could be there.
Personal understanding is that each individual itself is a potential avatar/prophet/messenger/ etc. and can only utilize the resources available through reading and understanding of those who were also enlightened and not by blinding following them.
Love & rgds
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by zenzero
[I'd like] everyone to discuss about why they believe anyone to be a prophet or an avatar or messenger of God. Can they prove the same? please explain!
Many of the proofs are subjective, and consist of the following:
the individual's own life,
the "Book" provided; i.e., the laws and teachings,
the effects on the world of the religion the individual has revealed,
the fact that this religion itself survives and endures for centuries or millenia, while false ones tend to fade and disappear over time,
as lesser proofs:
earlier prophecies fulfilled
new prophecies made personally and since fulfilled.
(Please note that miracles aren't considered proofs because they're reliable ONLY for eyewitnesses, and even they may be mistaken!)
Best,
Bruce
Firstly you have used your own understanding and placed the words [I'like] in place of only *like*.
This is from where falsification starts; as those reading your posts will immediately understand that this is personal when the word *like* is impersonal and is meant for a common cause.
However moving since you have not mentioned about your personal belief on any prophet/avatar/etc and kept provided some general guidelines for belief and wherein you also mention that they are subjective and too many holes could be there.
Personal understanding is that each individual itself is a potential avatar/prophet/messenger/ etc. and can only utilize the resources available through reading and understanding of those who were also enlightened and not by blinding following them.
Love & rgds
zenzero
Its only a Label
Friend RiverSeed,
Request, kindly explain your thoughts with more clarity for a general understanding, though can understand that it may be difficult for you however request you to try once more for a better understanding.
Love & rgds
It appears *english* is not the language you are used to communicate mostly as personally could not understand your message except that Prophets have bigger *egos* creating gaps rather than closing gaps between god and humans.
Request, kindly explain your thoughts with more clarity for a general understanding, though can understand that it may be difficult for you however request you to try once more for a better understanding.
Love & rgds