Believers should not feel intimidated by so called experts on religion

[Link]

Everyone else doesn't really know Quran like their level nor are others an authority pertaining to any revelation from God.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Are you referring to personal beliefs? Like for instance if I were to tell you that God is this and that? or do you mean people referring to scriptures and using them as examples?

People who practices the teachings from religion or spiritual teaching.

 

[F1fan]

A religious person who whold a personal belief in any religion or spiritual teaching, has no reason to feel intimidated by a socalled expert on religion....there is not one answer fits all when it comes to spiritual practice.

Thanks for acknowledging that believers feel intimidated by people who are better informed about religion. I take it this includes people who use reason and objectivity better as well?

An expert has an opinion, thats all.

This is a common denial by believers whose beliefs are being challenged successfully. It is called the Dunning Kruger Effect, where a lay person can deny and reject the expertise of another for no reason other than poorly informed beliefs.

Let's note that opinions are not bad, only poorly informed opinions are bad.

Let them have their opinion, and the best part, just leave them alone
They try to tell you "you don't know your own personal belief" that is hilerious.

This strikes me odd when people who supposedly have some sort of deep and divine truth, but suffer from insecurity and doubts in debate. Part of a spiritual process is listening to doubts and insecurity because that is the subconscious trying to tell the conscious mind their beliefs are not quite right. This is the inner conflict and turmoil that irrational belief can cause to a mind that is rational and open minded. Your suggestion here is to close the mind to discussion. It is to retreat into ideology and fear to protect ideas that are comfortable, but also unsatisfying in some way.

The path to truth may be realizing that the greed for truth and belief IS what keeps a person for having it. The more you strive for the truth the farther you get from it. That is how fear works on the mind. It prevents a whole wisdom that includes reason.

 

[F1fan]

Everyone else doesn't really know Quran like their level nor are others an authority pertaining to any revelation from God.

Assuming the Quran is what you think it is. You could be mistaken.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I largely agree with this. As a non-believer, my perspective is that all religious artifacts(?), e.g. scripture and rituals and so on, are man-made. A person can certainly become an expert in these artifacts, but the artifacts are distinct from what any individual believer believes.

I do think it's perilous for one human to claim to know "the word of god". That almost always goes badly.

For a spiritual person who practice a spiritual teaching, they can not know the truth fully before they reaalise it. So to claim "i know what God mean" that would be wrong action and speech.

This is why 7t is so important to say "in my understanding " before speaking

 

[Link]

Also, Quran says believer council one another with respect to their affair (religion and politics).

This means, everyone can contribute to understanding Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) teachings and we are to council one another about it.

We can talk about among ourselves, but never, are believers to say "reverentially follow us" (Raina) and also not to attribute people a higher purity status then society in general, only God is to do that.

 

[Nimos]

I'm saying per Quran, the true experts are Mohamad, Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain and 9 leaders that are the offspring of Hussain (peace be upon them all).

Other people are not to say "reverentially follow us", in fact believers been forbidden to say this per Quran.

So those that teaches other what the Quran is saying, which result in people having different interpretation is that considered ok, because there is religious people in Islam that are above others or that teaches others how and what to believe, isn't that much the same?

 

[F1fan]

We get a lot of criticism but I wonder how much Baha’i literature if any, those who do so have ever read? I possess all the Holy Books of all the religions and Sufi writings too and I accept the truth in them all because I have read them and they are all enlightening and teach truth.

And who says an ordinary thinker doesn't have better ideas than any of those writings? Why do you need a guru?

If you can't trust yourself and your own ability to think what makes you correct in deciding your religion is true and accurate?

 

[Spirit of Light]

So those that teaches other what the Quran is saying, which result in people having different interpretation is that considered ok, because there is religious people in Islam that are above others or that teaches others how and what to believe, isn't that much the same?

As long they acknowledge that God has a greater understanding of the truth, and they say it to those who listen, that is ok ( in my understanding)

@Link may understand it differently

 

[Link]

So those that teaches other what the Quran is saying, which result in people having different interpretation is that considered ok, because there is religious people in Islam that are above others or that teaches others how and what to believe, isn't that much the same?

None of it is okay per Quran per my understanding. The problem is we seek expertise from people who God has not himself attributed that higher status to. We attribute higher levels of purity to people above others, with no proof from God. None of it is okay from Christian scholars or Jewish Rabbis to Muslim scholars - all of it is wrong per Quran.

Tazkiya which means purification from God as in reputation wise, per Quran, is for God to do and no one else to do it but him.

Shias and Sunnis both did same mistake in this regard. They attributed this higher level of purity to people with no proof from God and everything went haywire in divisions because of that.

Quran says God declares and proves who is purer and higher in purity - not for humans to do that by reputation nor trust those who build such reputation around themselves with no proof from God.

The whole solution and argument of Quran, is to seek guidance from God's guidance, mainly Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) in this time, but in the past, there was similarly rope from God in form of divine scripture and divinely appointed group of people known as an Ahlulbayt.

Quran is saying God will choose humans and prove them by revelation from him, hold on to those he has chosen and don't choose yourself for guidance in religion anyone.

 

[Nimos]

As long they acknowledge that God has a greater understanding of the truth, and they say it to those who listen, that is ok ( in my understanding)

@Link may understand it differently

But doesn't the terrorists, Taliban etc. acknowledge that? they simply disagree with what you think. But wouldn't you say that they are wrong? so it can't be enough to simply acknowledge that God has a greater understanding of the truth.

 

[Nimos]

None of it is okay per Quran per my understanding. The problem is we seek expertise from people who God has not himself attributed that higher status to. We attribute higher levels of purity to people above others, with no proof from God. None of it is okay from Christian scholars or Jewish Rabbis to Muslim scholars - all of it is wrong per Quran.

So just to be sure, you think that all those that teaches others about Islam shouldn't do it, because that is wrong? Just using the terrorist and Taliban for the easy contrast.

So them as well as anyone else who teaches others are wrong as you see it according to the Quran, because clearly these teachers are not teaching the same things.

 

[icehorse]

For a spiritual person who practice a spiritual teaching, they can not know the truth fully before they reaalise it. So to claim "i know what God mean" that would be wrong action and speech.

This is why 7t is so important to say "in my understanding " before speaking

Again, agreed. AND.. what history shows us is that in many cases "in my understanding" isn't an honest intro, and the speaker will be backed up by violent, religious thugs.

In other words, I think you're calling for humility - hooray! And what we often see from religious people in power is arrogance and violence and coercion.

 

[Link]

So just to be sure, you think that all those that teaches others about Islam shouldn't do it, because that is wrong? Just using the terrorist and Taliban for the easy contrast.

So them as well as anyone else teaches others are wrong as you see it according to the Quran, because clearly these teachers are not teaching the same things.

We can teach religion, but to claim expertise on it and to claim higher knowledge of it then regular people, this shouldn't be done in my view. We should stay humble and not create divisions. Everyone contribute what they know, no one has to be a complete expert, we have Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) teachings, everyone can bring proof and contirbute.

The whole "this person knows most" has to stop.

 

[Revoltingest]

A religious person who hold a personal belief in any religion or spiritual teaching, has no reason to feel intimidated by a socalled expert on religion....there is not one answer fits all when it comes to spiritual practice.

An expert has an opinion, thats all.
Let them have their opinion, and the best part, just leave them alone
They try to tell you "you don't know your own personal belief" that is hilerious.

There are no experts in religion.
No one has more authority than anyone else.

 

[Spirit of Light]

But doesn't the terrorists, Taliban etc. acknowledge that? they simply disagree with what you think. But wouldn't you say that they are wrong? so it can't be enough to simply acknowledge that God has a greater understanding of the truth.

They have a totally different understanding of the teaching than many Muslims. Their actions of killing, making war is wrong in my understanding yes.
They interpret the teaching in an extreme way.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Again, agreed. AND.. what history shows us is that in many cases "in my understanding" isn't an honest intro, and the speaker will be backed up by violent, religious thugs.

In other words, I think you're calling for humility - hooray! And what we often see from religious people in power is arrogance and violence and coercion.

Spiritual or religious people should not seek powerful positions.

 

[Spirit of Light]

There are no experts in religion.
No one has more authority than anyone else.

True, it is faith and belief. And that differ from person to person.

 

[F1fan]

They have a totally different understanding of the teaching than many Muslims. Their actions of killing, making war is wrong in my understanding yes.
They interpret the teaching in an extreme way.

So you acknowledge that how a theist "understands" their religion can be faulty and in severe contradiction to what is generally considered true about it, yes?

 

[F1fan]

True, it is faith and belief. And that differ from person to person.

So truth, faith, and belief is arbitrary, and what a believer believes can be faulty. How does this happen if there is a spiritual method, and sense, and path that supposedly guides these people? How reliable can any theist claim guidance to be?