Believing in god is NOT a choice

[ChristineES]

So then... Logically... why do you feel you had no choice? What makes you think that your personal belief in god is not a choice?

It wasn't a choice for me, at least I don't think it was. That doesn't mean that other people didn't choose to believe in God- I am pretty sure that at least some people choose to believe something just as some people choose not to believe in a thing.

 

[Willamena]

I am not dismissing your beliefs but stating your chose them.

What does it mean "to choose"? Is that an act of free will --and if so, is it an act of free will that creates the "free will" that is "to choose"?

 

[Willamena]

Atheists typically do present the same argument. Normally they say things like I disagree that the bible proves god. Or There is not enough evidence to support a belief in god....

Most atheists present their case from a position of ignorance.

 

[Sententia]

And yet you dismissed her statement arbitrarily.

That is simply not true. I stated my opinion. Noted specifically it was my opinion and asked to be corrected with further information.

Ad homs and a pointless insult? And willamena... I STATED my intentions:

Are you feeling particularly antagonistic tonight? My thoughts were... don't stop posting... you stated something I regard as logically false and want to know how you got there. Never did I imply I won nor do I think Christine has suddenly converted to atheism nor was my intent to do so.

Further my intent is not to win. That is not a goal in clicking submit reply. (If it was its not realistic as Religious forums is not a game and does not start over when people, by your definition, win) Beyond character defamation and ad homs and possible some innate sense of loyalty or misguided sense to defend against your misguided perception of winning posts... I can't see your point with this post.

I am guessing you do not believe me? You think I am lying?

Call me on that then. Call me a liar or question my explanations... But you obviously can read and have argued intelligently in the past.... Try and keep up.

 

[ChristineES]

The Bible doesn't prove God. I believe this for one simple reason- not everyone is convinced of God by reading it.

 

[Willamena]

That is simply not true. I stated my opinion. Noted specifically it was my opinion and asked to be corrected with further information.

Ad homs and a pointless insult? And willamena... I STATED my intentions:



I am guessing you do not believe me? You think I am lying?

Call me on that then. Call me a liar or question my explanations... But you obviously can read and have argued intelligently in the past.... Try and keep up.

I'm sorry, but should "your intentions" begin with a presumption of someone else's state of mind/feelings?

Perhaps I should bow out now.

PS: And that post isn't even about her, it was addressed to me. What are you playing at?

 

[YmirGF]

Most atheists present their case from a position of ignorance.

Almost as much as theists do. :drool:

 

[Sententia]

It wasn't a choice for me, at least I don't think it was. That doesn't mean that other people didn't choose to believe in God- I am pretty sure that at least some people choose to believe something just as some people choose not to believe in a thing.

How was it not a choice?

You being the sex that you are and having the color of eyes you have is not a choice but how is that different from your belief in god? You were genetically born to believe in god? What is this concept of you didn't chose? You state you dont think it was... does that mean you don't remember choosing but logically you know that your liking some flavor of ice cream was not a choice and just like that your belief in god is the same... you are a product of your genes and your genes made you believe in god and never could you not believe in god just as you could never choose what flavor of ice cream tastes best to you?

 

[ChristineES]

Let's start over. I took the saying of "nonsense" as a total dismissal of my opinion- it seemed to imply almost that I was stupid or ignorant for believing it. You've explained that you did not mean that- I will take your word for it.

 

[Willamena]

How was it not a choice?

You being the sex that you are and having the color of eyes you have is not a choice but how is that different from your belief in god? You were genetically born to believe in god? What is this concept of you didn't chose? You state you dont think it was... does that mean you don't remember choosing but logically you know that your liking some flavor of ice cream was not a choice and just like that your belief in god is the same... you are a product of your genes and your genes made you believe in god and never could you not believe in god just as you could never choose what flavor of ice cream tastes best to you?

Let's start with "how is it a choice". From there perhaps we can progress to how it is not a choice.

 

[ChristineES]

How was it not a choice?

You being the sex that you are and having the color of eyes you have is not a choice but how is that different from your belief in god? You were genetically born to believe in god? What is this concept of you didn't chose? You state you dont think it was... does that mean you don't remember choosing but logically you know that your liking some flavor of ice cream was not a choice and just like that your belief in god is the same... you are a product of your genes and your genes made you believe in god and never could you not believe in god just as you could never choose what flavor of ice cream tastes best to you?

Let's use ice cream, then. I prefer chocolate over vanilla. I did not eat them both with the idea that I was going to like chocolate better, it was something that happened to be a fact. The same way as believing in God- I didn't wake up one day and say "I am going to believe in God today, although yesterday I did not". It was just a fact that at one time I did not believe and over time, I started to believe.

 

[Sententia]

I'm sorry, but should "your intentions" begin with a presumption of someone else's state of mind/feelings?

Perhaps I should bow out now.

Its insulting at this point. I'm a monstrous, evil, demon, god hating, disbelieving atheist slug who is ugly as sin and I weigh well over 1000 pounds. On top of that I'm gay and both mentally and physically retarded.

You can believe what ever you want but if you can't contribute to a thread and address simple questions then why are you still posting?

I NEVER stated my intentions were presumption. I clarified that and you quoted it. If you question it then start there.

 

[Willamena]

Let's use ice cream, then. I prefer chocolate over vanilla. I did not eat them both with the idea that I was going to like chocolate better, it was something that happened to be a fact. The same way as believing in God- I didn't wake up one day and say "I am going to believe in God today, although yesterday I did not". It was just a fact that at one time I did not believe and over time, I started to believe.

I'd have to say, it's much the same for me in my belief in 'god', firmly in my atheism.

 

[Sententia]

Let's use ice cream, then. I prefer chocolate over vanilla. I did not eat them both with the idea that I was going to like chocolate better, it was something that happened to be a fact. The same way as believing in God- I didn't wake up one day and say "I am going to believe in God today, although yesterday I did not". It was just a fact that at one time I did not believe and over time, I started to believe.

So do I.

But I know that is not a choice. Its a genetic pre-disposition. I often argue this point in free will threads.... how do I know I wasn't given X at W age which programed the Y part of my brain to Like X more the Z because Z was given at the H timeframe and not the W time frame where I was vulnerable to programming that particular part of dislikes and likes. (That is unlike my brown eyes, my preference for chocolate ice cream I think *could* be both a product of my genes and my upbringing)

If that is your argument... your brain was genetically predisposed to a belief in god and the argument against doesnt really matter... (That is no matter how much someone talks up vanilla the fact is your still gonna like chocolate more) Then I get it. I disagree and think your belief was more a product of your environment but what I say is not fact. Its just my current opinion. I am allowed to disagree and be both either right or wrong and entitled to either realizing or not the result in my current life time. And regardless of whether I die thinking I was right or wrong is ultimately unimportant in the scope of whether my conclusions were good or bad. (Many people died knowing the earth was flat and died knowing their conclusion of flat earth was not a choice)

Whether you think a belief in god is a choice or not is up to you. My question is how did you arrive at what I perceive to be a logical impasse. Your answer is interesting if I am understanding it correctly. (And quite possibly true)

 

[Sententia]

If you say so.

My point was made by an exaggeration of your implications and then your complicit agreement. *Sigh*

 

[ChristineES]

Whether you think a belief in god is a choice or not is up to you. My question is how did you arrive at what I perceive to be a logical impasse. Your answer is interesting if I am understanding it correctly. (And quite possibly true)

That is a hard question. I can only go by the fact that I don't remember choosing. There is a chance that I did choose- maybe it was subconscious. But the fact, I don't remember choosing. Because I don't remember choosing, I assume that I didn't make a choice.
I'm not even sure if that even makes any sense.

 

[Buttons*]

This is a popular cop out...

What does it mean exactly?

At some point you were told about god. At some point you were also told about tooth fairies, santa and leprechauns.

You either consciously or unconsciously chose to believe. If you think you had no choice what does that mean?

Let's see. "It is NOT a choice to believe in God." Well, I think for me it wasn't a "choice" - persay. I was raised in the Episcopal Church, and still hold it in high esteem. But I think that eventually, after looking up optional information, it then became an option not to believe in a type of God.

So, after getting that information, and working it in my mind, and responding to my inner "heart" or spirit, whichever you prefer, I came to believe that the Abrahamic God is not the "true" God, but I kept my spirituality because I feel that the connection between all things is too strong to discard as a mirage of my imagination. (Especially since I'm not the only person to feel this way.)

In the beginning of my life, it wasn't a choice, it was something I was raised with. Then I jumped from believing in God to believing in The One. But atheism, though it was an optional decision I knew of, wasn't an option I chose.

I was told about the tooth fairy and leprechauns, but I never really believed in them. There's no power in it. When I walk into a place of worship, I can usually feel some kind of power. When I look at pictures of the tooth fairy or leprechauns, I don't feel anything. I think that's where the difference comes in.

 

[Sententia]

That is a hard question. I can only go by the fact that I don't remember choosing. There is a chance that I did choose- maybe it was subconscious. But the fact, I don't remember choosing. Because I don't remember choosing, I assume that I didn't make a choice.
I'm not even sure if that even makes any sense.

No it does. But I am trying to get more granular.

I can't remember when I picked my favorite color. I cant say for certain my favorite color is even a choice. My mom says she knows. She even remembers the day.

But that doesn't explain to me if I chose or if i had physical features in my eyes predisposed to prefer X color or if I had some dopamine crazy construct neurological disorder going that made me prefer X color. Also there is the chance that I subconsciously chose that I prefer X color.

To me... and I could be missing the boat so let me know... but I get the gist that is the nature of your argument. Its not a choice that you remember...

But to continue in the line of reasoning... Just because I prefer a color does not mean it is the only color worth keeping nor does it diminish my capacity to appreciate other colors nor incline to me hate other colors or to talk people into liking my favorite color the most who think their favorite color is something other then mine.

Logically I am seeing a failure in the relationship of I like chocolate the most and strawberry with the fruit embedded in it is just horrible and you must also like this chocolate and hate this as I do as realistic or a valid comparison to religion as far as my belief in god was not a choice.

That is... I can believe you might be genetically predisposed to like chocolate but where would one develop the sense that those genetically predisposed to like vanilla is wrong and you need convert them to like chocolate?

And Im not saying you... I am just pointing one aspect where the equation seems to break down.

Saying you like chocolate and you didnt choose that is fine but maybe you never tried Xerple and Xerple ice cream is 10X better then chocolate.

And if your belief in god is similar to that - then is it just like a belief in the jesus god giving you more pleasure then say a belief in the Isis god?

Why did you choose the Jesus god over the Isis god?

While you might be genetically predisposed to god Is there something in the christian jesus based faith that your genetically predisposed to believe and accept more then in say the Gaia goddess and her faith and if so why?

Thats where it starts to break down for me. I can understand a predisposition to believe in the godly superpower. (Esp since such a belief would probably provide an advantage in many situations when compared to the opposite) But a specific god... If you go back to my ice cream... is Jesus the Xerple or have not heard about the Xerple or is the brand of god belief unimportant in terms of the statement that believing in god is not a choice?

 

[Sententia]

I was told about the tooth fairy and leprechauns, but I never really believed in them. There's no power in it. When I walk into a place of worship, I can usually feel some kind of power. When I look at pictures of the tooth fairy or leprechauns, I don't feel anything. I think that's where the difference comes in.

Thats kind of what I was driving at. I have a wiccan friend who believes in leprechauns. He probably has over 1000 four leaf clovers and he feels that sense of power in his collection of clovers and in a large green field filled with clovers. I don't share either his feelings of the supernatural in grassy field or your feelings when I stand in a church. That doesnt mean I dont understand it or respect your beliefs.

It does seem like a very rational and understanding way to approach a belief in god. I feel X when I am at Y and attribute X to Z therefore Z. I dont feel the Same X at Y and if I did would not conclude Z if I did but for a long time I did conclude Z.

 

[ChristineES]

When I first started believing in God, it was not a choice. But choosing Christianity was a choice for me. I believed in God first, then started out looking for a faith- and I chose the one that I knew most about. I still like to study about other faiths, but none of them spoke to me the way Jesus' teachings in the four gospels did. And as I have said many times, I am not prepared to totally dismiss other faiths at this time.