Believing in god is NOT a choice

[blackout]

We all (each) see what we are inclined to see
(in any experience)

 

[Sententia]

There are many many people who have had experiences like this. You can either start down the long road to finding something more in life, or stay where you are. It is your choice.

What is wrong with you? How dare you condescend to me that you have some long road to finding more then what I already have? The choice is mine?

You uppity little coward.

Now instead of feeling sad for you I feel nothing. Stay where I am... LOL...

Are you trying to define my mental and spiritual placement as X and yours as X+1....

Pathetic. And I mean that in the sincerest possible way. Grab your spiritual mirror and keep staring... Narcissist.

 

[Smoke]

What is wrong with you? How dare you condescend to me that you have some long road to finding more then what I already have? The choice is mine?

I agree with Idea's statement as written, though I don't agree with the thinking behind it. To my way of thinking, we do all have the choice to go on and discover more, but the people who think they've "found it" are more prone to decide against it.

 

[Valkyr1a]

This is a popular cop out...

What does it mean exactly?

At some point you were told about god. At some point you were also told about tooth fairies, santa and leprechauns.

You either consciously or unconsciously chose to believe. If you think you had no choice what does that mean?

It means that you are an idiot. You always have a choice.

 

[Sententia]

I agree with Idea's statement as written, though I don't agree with the thinking behind it. To my way of thinking, we do all have the choice to go on and discover more, but the people who think they've "found it" are more prone to decide against it.

Am I interpreting this right?

Balance... dude... Idea is trying to say that you only think you found what it is you disagree with... if you kept looking then you would have found more... more you couldnt disagree with.

How do you see this as any less condescending? In your attempt to make a distinction you seem to call the bet and the try to raise it. What if the choice to discover more leads only to a more solid basis of atheism... According to your BS comments thats pure ignorance as we decided to disagree with not whats there but only what we stupid ignorant village idiots THOUGHT we found.

Save me some typing and just insult me openly so I don't have to explain your posts that attempt such in the future.

 

[Sententia]

It means that you are an idiot. You always have a choice.

Bravo... but many in this thread disagree with you... religion is a choice but not a belief in god....

I'm trying to get people to explain that but so far it seems difficult... obviously those that disbelieve just gave up or are stupid... LOL....

Thanks for the support though.

 

[Smoke]

Am I interpreting this right?

Balance... dude... Idea is trying to say that you only think you found what it is you disagree with... if you kept looking then you would have found more... more you couldnt disagree with.

How do you see this as any less condescending?

As I said, I agree with the statement as written, but not with the thought behind it. Actually, I think the course of action Idea believes we should take is likely to prevent us from doing any real learning or growing.

I am, in other words, taking Idea's statement completely out of context, but once out of that context, I think it's a sound statement.

 

[Sententia]

As I said, I agree with the statement as written, but not with the thought behind it. Actually, I think the course of action Idea believes we should take is likely to prevent us from doing any real learning or growing.

I am, in other words, taking Idea's statement completely out of context, but once out of that context, I think it's a sound statement.

And why? Save me some typing and just insult me openly so I don't have to explain your posts that attempt such in the future.

Seriously. Please.

You agree in the conclusion is ends justify the means bs but in no way does my argument just disagree with the conclusion.

 

[Smoke]

And why? Save me some typing and just insult me openly so I don't have to explain your posts that attempt such in the future.

Seriously. Please.

You agree in the conclusion is ends justify the means bs but in no way does my argument just disagree with the conclusion.

I'm not insulting you at all, and I don't know why you'd imagine that I am. I agree with you; I disagree with Idea. I just thought that as a general rule, and apart from Idea's proselytizing attempts, "You can either start down the long road to finding something more in life, or stay where you are. It is your choice" was a good thought. I've begun to realize that it was not a good idea to say so.

I'm not saying the ends justify the means. I didn't mean to suggest, and I would have thought that anybody at all familiar with me would have known I didn't mean to suggest, that dogmatic religion is a good way to find something more in life. I don't think that belief in god is either necessary or beneficial. I think that for the most part, religion -- and Abrahamic religion especially -- does more harm than good. But we really do have to make the effort, we really do have to start down that long road. I'm sorry I said so in the context of Idea's statement, though, because I don't think for a minute that she's on that road. Does that help to explain?

 

[idea]

A religion is not just an intellectual proposition, but a community, ...

Yes, we are called, not just to believe, but to belong.

18 And the Lord called his people ZION, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 7:18)

to belong... to be of one heart, one mind, united in all things.... as a heart gains identity and worth when it enters into the body and starts pumping blood, we gain worth.

I resisted it’s exertions (Naval Academy) fearing its effects on my individuality. But as a POW I learned that a shared purpose did not claim my identity. On the contrary, it enlarged my sense of myself. – McCain, Faith of my Fathers

It is when we lose ourselves– allow ourselves to belong to the body, that we find our true worth…
We instinctively crave to belong, The light of Christ guides us to become united with one another, to be of one heart and one mind.

I could choose, as it were, another place of residence and another nationality, but I was no longer at a point in my life when I could choose a new identity. A boy or a young man can leave home and become a Frenchman; a man in middle age can go to live in France and even take up French nationality, but he can't really become a Frenchman.

The adversary teaches us that we cannot belong, that we cannot change, that we can not be a part of it all. Do not listen to that tripe! "you can always change the road you're on."

Once apart from my community, I realized I didn't believe in god.

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my cname, there am I in the midst of them.
(New Testament | Matthew 18:20)

A separation from those around you is also a separation from God. The closer you grow to those around you, the closer you grow to God. All the commandments - love one another, don't steal, don't lie, etc. etc. they are all about our relationships with one another and with God.

Yes, we have to have individual testimonies... "if our church is our God, then we will find no God in our church." - forget who said that, but it is true. church is a means to the end, not the end. ... "If I have seen farther than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of Giants" - not just pretty poetic words... we need one another in order to see farther.

 

[idea]

"You can either start down the long road to finding something more in life, or stay where you are. It is your choice"

Why is it that most people resist change? A new job, or new home, finding new friends, new communities, new ideologies, new political leaders...

IMO the difference between life and death is that life is something that grows - something that changes. Death is stagnation. Rock vs. plant - plants grow. Eternal life is eternal progression, eternal change, eternally growing... JMO.

 

[idea]

What is wrong with you? How dare you condescend to me that you have some long road to finding more then what I already have? The choice is mine?

You uppity little coward.

Now instead of feeling sad for you I feel nothing. Stay where I am... LOL...

Are you trying to define my mental and spiritual placement as X and yours as X+1....

Pathetic. And I mean that in the sincerest possible way. Grab your spiritual mirror and keep staring... Narcissist.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians13:12)

I don't think we are seeing one another face to face here... seems like you were in a bad mood for some reason, sorry, hope you are feeling better now.

If you knew me, you would know that I would never try to convert anyone, or think little of anyone. I have a past, I view myself in a pretty poor light actually. As far as conversion, only God can convert anyone. If a person converts you, then it is a person you believe in, not God.

Imagine you are standing in a circle of people.
​

In the center of the circle, there is a source of light.
But rather than facing the center and the light, you are standing with your back to the light, facing outward.

When you stand this way, facing away from the light, all you can see is your own shadow.
​

You cannot see the light.
You can only look into your shadow.
You cannot see the others in the circle with you.
From what you can see, you are disconnected and alone in the dark.
​

Now imagine that you turn around to face the light that is in the center of the circle.
When you turn toward the light, you no longer see only darkness.
When you turn toward the light, your shadow is behind you.
When you turn toward the light, you can now see the other people who are standing with you.
You can see that the light is shining on everyone and that you are all connected in its radiance.
​

I have posted the above before. When we cast blame on others we cast darkness on all that is around us, and cannot see anything clearly. It is only when we cease to accuse/ remove anger/hostility from our hearts that we can clearly see...

When The Pools Of Perception Are Cleansed
Everything Apperars As It Is -
(from a little zen book)

Metanoia

Literally, it is a Greek word meaning “change of mind”. Yet the full meaning is somewhat more. In the New Testament, the word metanoia is often translated as “repentance”. But this kind of repentance is not about regret or guilt or shame; it implies making a decision to turn around, to face a new direction.

​

 

[Smoke]

Why is it that most people resist change? A new job, or new home, finding new friends, new communities, new ideologies, new political leaders...

IMO the difference between life and death is that life is something that grows - something that changes. Death is stagnation. Rock vs. plant - plants grow. Eternal life is eternal progression, eternal change, eternally growing... JMO.

I agree wholeheartedly. That's why insistence on tradition leads to stagnation and death, and why the churches who seek to impose their traditions on the rest of us are bound to fail.

 

[Katzpur]

Ok but why is not a choice?

As I tried to explain in my previous post, I do not recall having ever made a conscious decision about whether God exists or not. From as far back as I can remember, I simply felt certain that He did.

You are not born believing in god. You are not born with knowledge of the gods. Yet now... all growwed up... you believe in a god.

No allah, not Odin, krishna, ra or Zeus... but your god...

Why or really how is that not a choice?

I have tried to explain, Balance, but apparently I am unable to pick the right words. I have believed in the God I believe in for as long as I can remember because for as long as I can remember, that is the God whose existance works for me. I have prayed to Him for over 55 years and for over 55 years I have seen my prayers answered. Please understand that I'm not trying to avoid your question. I know you're going to keep asking me the same thing over and over again rather than simply accept my explanation that this is the best I can do. You might want to save yourself the effort and frustration because I can't be any more specific than I have already been.

 

[Sententia]

As I tried to explain in my previous post, I do not recall having ever made a conscious decision about whether God exists or not. From as far back as I can remember, I simply felt certain that He did.

I have tried to explain, Balance, but apparently I am unable to pick the right words. I have believed in the God I believe in for as long as I can remember because for as long as I can remember, that is the God whose existance works for me. I have prayed to Him for over 55 years and for over 55 years I have seen my prayers answered. Please understand that I'm not trying to avoid your question. I know you're going to keep asking me the same thing over and over again rather than simply accept my explanation that this is the best I can do. You might want to save yourself the effort and frustration because I can't be any more specific than I have already been.

I'm not frustrated or even really asking for my own curiosity.

But my friend has a 10 year old and his 10 year old came to him and a few other adults who were sitting in the den drinking 'Daddy Soda' and he sat down in the middle of the room and said dad... I don't believe in Santa, Santa is fake.

We all kind of smiled.. But we asked questions. Why? Have you been to the north pole? Have you checked every santa... There is no way you could falsify Santa... And at 10... he decided he could and did. (Atleast he managed to convince himself... so of us, while impressed, we're not convinced with the depth of his argument hehe)

When you say things like I have had 55 years of having my prayers answered I see that as a delusion of sorts. I mean what did you pray for over the last 5 decades? World peace or no rain on wedding? Did you pray for guidance and then attribute some random coincidence to your prayer being answered.

Do I think that or see things that way to be disagreeable with you? No. There have been many studies done on prayer from many different angles. (Placebo affect, comedy, etc etc) But you believe not only could prayer work but that it can and does work and you have seen it. Your entire framework of beliefs and truths comes into a play because of a completely different set of core values and beliefs.

But then again... I at one time believed in the lord and savior Jesus Christ. I went door to door blah blah. It was no person that came to me and convinced me I was jack *** who believed in nonsense. It was the culmination of many events which forced me to analyze my life and beliefs in great detail. (Some I have posted here but many I have not.)

So I am not going to change you. Its not my desire. Really I'm just trying to understand that at some point you did make a choice. You claim not to remember making it but does that mean you disagree that at some point you must have made one? How else would you end up making this choice? You think its genetic like Blond hair or blue eyes?

 

[YmirGF]

This is a popular cop out...

I am inclined to half agree with you on this one BalanceFX. In most cases, small children are told about god by given authority figures and in such a compelling way, that they have no reason TO DOUBT what they are being told. I suspect that it may be more a case of lack of doubt that provides the fertile soil the belief needs to grow. In this way, there may not be a given point where someone chooses to believe, as it is more likely the suspension of disbelief that allows the idea to take root. Over time, the “what if” (or “why not”) becomes solidified.

What does it mean exactly?

I wouldn't be inclined to be too hard on people in this regard as it is pretty uncommon these days to analyse the beliefs we hold and determine why we hold them.

You either consciously or unconsciously chose to believe.

Again, I think most people become convinced of god early in their formative years and are simply not able to recall a period before that where they had no opinion on the matter. Kids will believe whatever they are told if they trust the person introducing the idea enough.

If you think you had no choice what does that mean?

Forgetfulness?

 

[idea]

I agree wholeheartedly. That's why insistence on tradition leads to stagnation and death, and why the churches who seek to impose their traditions on the rest of us are bound to fail.....

As an aside, I should note that while my particular pilgrimage has taken me through several religious traditions, there are people who make just as far-ranging a pilgrimage but do it within a single tradition, or who -- early on -- find a tradition that continues to allow them the range they need. I don't think that's necessarily any more unhealthy, psychologically, than my own experience.

I am a convert to the LDS faith, I have met with many different religious traditions. Yes, to flit from one thing to another, we only superficially see the surface of things without really understanding the depth of any of it… like a musical instrument, you can play the trumpet, then switch to the flute, then to the base, then the piccolo, but without patience and practice, pick one and stick to it, you don’t really become a musician. A Pilgrimage goes farther, more in depth, if it is made in a single tradition perhaps… You could spend your life runing up and down the field without ever crossing the goal line if you don't have a clear path to stick to...


Tradition can give background/depth to our understanding of things… A family who has generations of musicians, or a family of generations of Sumo wrestlers, or a family of chefs – they all have the advantage in their field of expertise due to their tradition/roots/foundation in it. I don’t have family ties to the church, I am envious of those who do.

 

[idea]

I'm not frustrated or even really asking for my own curiosity.

But my friend has a 10 year old and his 10 year old came to him and a few other adults who were sitting in the den drinking 'Daddy Soda' and he sat down in the middle of the room and said dad... I don't believe in Santa, Santa is fake.

We all kind of smiled.. But we asked questions. Why? Have you been to the north pole? Have you checked every santa... There is no way you could falsify Santa... And at 10... he decided he could and did. (Atleast he managed to convince himself... so of us, while impressed, we're not convinced with the depth of his argument hehe)

When you say things like I have had 55 years of having my prayers answered I see that as a delusion of sorts. I mean what did you pray for over the last 5 decades? World peace or no rain on wedding? Did you pray for guidance and then attribute some random coincidence to your prayer being answered.

Do I think that or see things that way to be disagreeable with you? No. There have been many studies done on prayer from many different angles. (Placebo affect, comedy, etc etc) But you believe not only could prayer work but that it can and does work and you have seen it. Your entire framework of beliefs and truths comes into a play because of a completely different set of core values and beliefs.

But then again... I at one time believed in the lord and savior Jesus Christ. I went door to door blah blah. It was no person that came to me and convinced me I was jack *** who believed in nonsense. It was the culmination of many events which forced me to analyze my life and beliefs in great detail. (Some I have posted here but many I have not.)

So I am not going to change you. Its not my desire. Really I'm just trying to understand that at some point you did make a choice. You claim not to remember making it but does that mean you disagree that at some point you must have made one? How else would you end up making this choice? You think its genetic like Blond hair or blue eyes?

Saint Nick was a real person you know -

Saint Nicholas lived early in the fourth century in what is now Turkey. He was orphaned as a young boy but left with substantial financial means by his parents. He used this inheritance to benefit others, especially children. ...
DrThrockmorton.com

Sometimes things really do exist. It is our imagined version of them does not exist.

Endurance balance… 55 years might be how long it takes to learn some things - at least to learn them to the depth that you need them at.

Do you know why George Washington won the war? He lost most of the battles he fought in, but he won the war. Endurance. Endurance is why he won.

Endurance, and a vision from God showing him how things would turn out (given to him when he was at hope’s end)

Those who come to know things in depth endure to the end.

George Washington,

Washington: “I tell you, I, my friend, you know I am a hard headed and practical a man as you have ever known. But I was sitting in this chair like this. I put back my head and closed my eyes but it wasn't just a dream because when I opened my eyes, it was still there. I saw our nation victorious. I saw it grow in size and power to become the major force for good on this earth. I saw it. A dream, a vision, I know it will come to pass. In my heart, I know it.”

Lafayette looks at Washington with great amazement and hope.

Narrator: “A dream, a vision, whatever it was George Washington experienced it has today become all fact. You won't find anything about it in an ordinary history book but it has appeared in print in a number of versions in a number of times in the past 150 years. All versions agree that Washington's dream of the Revolution would be successful and that the infant nation would grow until the boundaries would stretch from Canada to Mexico and from the Atlantic to the Pacific. There would be a bitter civil war between the Northern and Southern states. The Northern States would be called the Union and the Southern States would be called the Confederacy and the Union would emerge victorious.” “He dreamed all this supposedly and more but what is absolutely no dream are the facts of the battle of Monongahela. On this, all versions and all historians agree. There were three bullet holes in his hat, two horses were shot from under him. There were four bullet holes in the chest area of his uniform. Hundreds of French and Indian rifles firing at almost point blank range throughout that long and dreadful afternoon. And nothing touched him, nothing. Well, those are the facts. The incredible facts about the mystery of George Washington. Like Chief Otumqus, it will cause us much wonder.”

 

[logician]

Of course, one wonders how much "choice" many, many people have who are indoctrinated into some religion from a very early age. Not much, really.

 

[idea]

Of course, one wonders how much "choice" many, many people have who are indoctrinated into some religion from a very early age. Not much, really.

or how much choice many have who are indoctrinated into anything at a very early age.

In any event, my beliefs are not a product of my upbringing. Are yours?