Believing in god is NOT a choice

[fantome profane]

Imagine you are standing in a circle of people.
​

In the center of the circle, there is a source of light.
But rather than facing the center and the light, you are standing with your back to the light, facing outward.

When you stand this way, facing away from the light, all you can see is your own shadow.
​

You cannot see the light.
You can only look into your shadow.
You cannot see the others in the circle with you.
From what you can see, you are disconnected and alone in the dark.
​

Now imagine that you turn around to face the light that is in the center of the circle.
When you turn toward the light, you no longer see only darkness.
When you turn toward the light, your shadow is behind you.
When you turn toward the light, you can now see the other people who are standing with you.
You can see that the light is shining on everyone and that you are all connected in its radiance.
​

Interesting story, let me share another idea with you. Imagine you are standing in a room with just such a bright light in the centre. It is to bright to look at so you turn the other way. And that is when you see it. It is big, so much bigger than you are. It is difficult for you to understand it fully, you cannot make out any detail. But what you can see it looks a great deal like you. It is like you and you are like it. And you feel overwhelmed by this encounter with “God”.

Ever wonder how many people are worshiping shadows?

 

[Katzpur]

I'm not frustrated or even really asking for my own curiosity.

So why are you asking?

When you say things like I have had 55 years of having my prayers answered I see that as a delusion of sorts.

I know you do, and I don't blame you. Spiritual experiences of any kind are very personal and very subjective.

I mean what did you pray for over the last 5 decades? World peace or no rain on wedding? Did you pray for guidance and then attribute some random coincidence to your prayer being answered.

I couldn't possibly even begin to give you even a sampling of the kinds of things I've prayed for in the past five decades. To begin with, it would take a lot of my time and you would completely disregard everything I said anyway. Seriously, if you were me, would you bother?

I will tell you the first time I was convinced that God had actually answered one of my prayers. I was maybe three or four years old. One day I was playing with what my mom used to call "the bell." It was one of those little portable timers people use when they're cooking (nowadays they're generally built-in, but this was a long time ago, and ours wasn't). Anway, I was sitting and winding it just past the 5-minute mark and then immediately backwards to where it would go, "ding!" So it was wind clockwise, wind counter-clockwise, ding! Wind clockwise, wind counter-clockwise, ding! Over and over and over again. Finally my mother said to me, "Kathryn, don't do that any more. You're going to end up breaking it. It's not supposed to be a toy." Well, since I was so much smarter than she was, I just answered, "No I'm not! See!" and I continued to go through my little routine. A bunch more winds, a bunch more dings and all of a sudden, the bell stopped working. Guility, I handed it to my mother. "Im sorry," I said. She tried for a few minutes to get it to work. Finally, she said, "Well, I told you that's what would happen, but you didn't listen to me, did you? We'll just have to buy a new one."

"No we won't!" I said. "I'll pray about it. I'll ask Heavenly Father to make it work again." My mother really didn't know what to do. She'd taught me to pray and to have faith that God would hear and answer my prayers, but she knew that He didn't waste His time fixing mechanical timers. She hesitated and started to try to discourage me, but I was insistent. "I'm going to pray!" I said. And I did. After I asked God to please fix the bell, I went over and picked it up. I wound it just past the 5-minute mark and then backwards. DING! What a beautiful sound! I handed "the bell" to my mother, who was standing there were her mouth open. My mother is 95 years old. She still remembers that incident. I do believe God answered my prayer. I also doubt very seriously that I would have enough faith to make it happen again today, but I bet a lot of children would. I believe God knew how important it was that He answer that prayer. He knew it would influence the way I thought of him forever. He gave me what I needed then. What I needed from Him then and what I need from Him now are very different, but He still responds and placebo effect or not, when I still see the results of my prayers, I am going to keep praying, regardless of how stupid, naive, or humorous people like you may find the practice.

So I am not going to change you. Its not my desire. Really I'm just trying to understand that at some point you did make a choice. You claim not to remember making it but does that mean you disagree that at some point you must have made one? How else would you end up making this choice? You think its genetic like Blond hair or blue eyes?

I'm sure I did make a choice, but it was definitely even further back than the one incident I recall so clearly. I have seriously tried to convince myself that it's all just my imagination and that there really is no God. No matter how hard I try, I just can't make it happen. I'm sure it's not genetic, but it's something that is as much a part of who I am as the color of my hair and eyes. And believe me, I could change any aspect of my physical appearance easier than I could change my feelings about the existance of God.

 

[Reverend Rick]

If you choose to not decide if God is real, you still have made a choice.

 

[Sententia]

So why are you asking?

I know you do, and I don't blame you. Spiritual experiences of any kind are very personal and very subjective.

I couldn't possibly even begin to give you even a sampling of the kinds of things I've prayed for in the past five decades. To begin with, it would take a lot of my time and you would completely disregard everything I said anyway. Seriously, if you were me, would you bother?

I will tell you the first time I was convinced that God had actually answered one of my prayers. I was maybe three or four years old. One day I was playing with what my mom used to call "the bell." It was one of those little portable timers people use when they're cooking (nowadays they're generally built-in, but this was a long time ago, and ours wasn't). Anway, I was sitting and winding it just past the 5-minute mark and then immediately backwards to where it would go, "ding!" So it was wind clockwise, wind counter-clockwise, ding! Wind clockwise, wind counter-clockwise, ding! Over and over and over again. Finally my mother said to me, "Kathryn, don't do that any more. You're going to end up breaking it. It's not supposed to be a toy." Well, since I was so much smarter than she was, I just answered, "No I'm not! See!" and I continued to go through my little routine. A bunch more winds, a bunch more dings and all of a sudden, the bell stopped working. Guility, I handed it to my mother. "Im sorry," I said. She tried for a few minutes to get it to work. Finally, she said, "Well, I told you that's what would happen, but you didn't listen to me, did you? We'll just have to buy a new one."

"No we won't!" I said. "I'll pray about it. I'll ask Heavenly Father to make it work again." My mother really didn't know what to do. She'd taught me to pray and to have faith that God would hear and answer my prayers, but she knew that He didn't waste His time fixing mechanical timers. She hesitated and started to try to discourage me, but I was insistent. "I'm going to pray!" I said. And I did. After I asked God to please fix the bell, I went over and picked it up. I wound it just past the 5-minute mark and then backwards. DING! What a beautiful sound! I handed "the bell" to my mother, who was standing there were her mouth open. My mother is 95 years old. She still remembers that incident. I do believe God answered my prayer. I also doubt very seriously that I would have enough faith to make it happen again today, but I bet a lot of children would. I believe God knew how important it was that He answer that prayer. He knew it would influence the way I thought of him forever. He gave me what I needed then. What I needed from Him then and what I need from Him now are very different, but He still responds and placebo effect or not, when I still see the results of my prayers, I am going to keep praying, regardless of how stupid, naive, or humorous people like you may find the practice.

I'm sure I did make a choice, but it was definitely even further back than the one incident I recall so clearly. I have seriously tried to convince myself that it's all just my imagination and that there really is no God. No matter how hard I try, I just can't make it happen. I'm sure it's not genetic, but it's something that is as much a part of who I am as the color of my hair and eyes. And believe me, I could change any aspect of my physical appearance easier than I could change my feelings about the existance of God.

I don't have anything to say except... its not humor or naivety or stupidity I find in your belief that prayer works. To me its more sadness and fear. Tinges of both. When I read your story I remember asking Santa for something secretly and alone in my room. Christmas morning there it was. No one could have known. I kept it secret from everyone. Yet then I got it. Does this personal evidence then prove old saint nick?

Whats further odd is the things I had once attributed to god, religion or even fate. I'm an atheist now but do you not think I did not pray whilst I was a theist? Your quick judgment and insinuation of my feelings that I and "people like me" would have.... I bite back the urge to say... what do you mean people like me??

Its odd how I find many theists think atheists are unfeeling, rational alien beings strictly driven by logic who can't be hurt with simple jibes. Hah!

In any event convincing yourself that god and the events that have driven the summation of the experiences that make up what you call your life - are in fact - nothing more then imagination is... well... its not quite how atheists come to their conclusions. Suffice to say its slightly more involved than that but the ridiculous and fairly simplified boiling down of what you think it must take to be an atheist is not nearly as enlightening as it is insulting.

Then again I am quite thick skinned. I am glad you see your choice of believing in god as not genetic but not sure I agree with it. Perhaps there are mental genetic makeups for authoritarians or believers that contribute more then upbringing. Logically I see it as a mix of both only so far as what else could there be? If its not hardware... (Wetware?) then its upbringing. Is there something else? Even most theist deny the alternative. (That there really is a god and he proves himself to people as needed as that would mess with the whole freewill bs justification)

You seem to be half on board with God interferes where it would most change your life to follow him while maintaining you made that choice before even the experience you relate as justification. Fantastic conflict that tells me really nothing. Obviously you can see that the explanation you gave me of that particular experience can just as easily be explained without the need for all powerful, all knowing deities who are concerned SPECIFICALLY with the choices you were gonna make at that exact moment let alone your entirely life. To say I find it narcissistic now does not preclude my once upon a time thought process and literal demand that if such a deity god does exist then it must reveal itself to me. Again... Hah.

But that was then and this is now. You seem to admit indoctrination. I think YmirGF and I are following the same thought patterns here. I am not judging you nor am I personally curious. Forgetfulness is a reasonable answer.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't have anything to say except... its not humor or naivety or stupidity I find in your belief that prayer works. To me its more sadness and fear.

Well then once again I failed to express myself adequately. Such is the nature of language.

Your quick judgment and insinuation of my feelings that I and "people like me" would have.... I bite back the urge to say... what do you mean people like me??

You're too sensitive, Balance. It wasn't meant as a bite nor was it a snap judgment. When I said "people like you" I meant people who dismiss my faith as being the result of sadness and fear, and who just can't admit to the fact that just because we're not all alike, that doesn't make either of us superior to the other.

Its odd how I find many theists think atheists are unfeeling, rational alien beings strictly driven by logic who can't be hurt with simple jibes. Hah!

Well, if my "simple jibe" hurt you, I apologize. It wasn't meant to.

You seem to admit indoctrination.

Not really, but if you want to call it that, suit yourself.

 

[Sententia]

Not really, but if you want to call it that, suit yourself.

You can't ever remember making a rational choice but acknowledge there must have been a choice but also admit you were not born having already made that choice. What do you call it?

 

[Katzpur]

You can't ever remember making a rational choice but acknowledge there must have been a choice but also admit you were not born having already made that choice. What do you call it?

I don't know. If it were indoctrination, I believe I would recall someone making an effort to convince me of something I didn't already believe. I'm really not looking for a word for it. You're the one who wants to call it something. Now you've found something to call it and I still don't care. So I guess we can both walk away satisfied.

 

[Sententia]

I don't know. I'm really not looking for a word for it. You're the one who wants to call it something. Now you've found something to call it and I still don't care. So I guess we can both walk away satisfied.

Only except one of us is lying. To explain that... The essential question is why do you believe there is god and when did you make that choice?

Your answer is you don't care now nor did you care when I first asked the question.

Really?

I would say you're right but you have our positioned reversed. I don't care why you believe or when you believe. You care. Whats odd is the inverse situation satisfies you? (Your claim...) I was not seeking satisfaction. =D

 

[blackout]

Katz... maybe it was "God" who "did it"...
(fixed your bell)

OR

maybe you were just in the "faith" (suspension of disbelief) zone...
where we connect with our (innate) ability to catalyst change on other levels,
in our Oneness with the fabric of All that IS.

I have experienced these kinds of things both in and out of religion,
and 'under' drastically differing doctrines/non-doctrines of belief --
behind the suspension of my dis-belief.

 

[Smoke]

I don't have anything to say except... its not humor or naivety or stupidity I find in your belief that prayer works. To me its more sadness and fear. Tinges of both. When I read your story I remember asking Santa for something secretly and alone in my room. Christmas morning there it was. No one could have known. I kept it secret from everyone. Yet then I got it. Does this personal evidence then prove old saint nick?

Whenever I asked St. Phanourious for anything, I always got it. St. Phanourious looked out for me. After I realized I didn't believe in god, I had a harder time over losing St. Phanourios than I did over losing god. St. Phanourios and the Mother of God.

 

[idea]

if such a deity god does exist then it must reveal itself to me. Again... Hah.

But that was then and this is now.

Again? That was then? are you saying that such a deity has already revealed Himself to you, and you would like Him to reveal Himself to you... again? or do I misunderstand?

1 AND it came to pass that thus passed away the ninety and fifth year also, and the people began to forget those signs and wonders which they had heard, and began to be less and less astonished at a sign or a wonder from heaven, insomuch that they began to be hard in their hearts, and blind in their minds, and began to disbelieve all which they had heard and seen—
2 Imagining up some vain thing in their hearts, that it was wrought by men and by the power of the devil, to lead away and deceive the hearts of the people; and thus did Satan get possession of the hearts of the people again, insomuch that he did blind their eyes and lead them away to believe that the doctrine of Christ was a foolish and a vain thing.
3 And it came to pass that the people began to wax strong in wickedness and abominations; and they did not believe that there should be any more signs or wonders given; and Satan did go about, leading away the hearts of the people, tempting them and causing them that they should do great wickedness in the land.
(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 2:1 - 3)

signs and wonders do not convert people. Signs/wonders are forgotten/rationalized away as some hallucination, as scrooge said "a bit of moldy cheese perhaps"... Faith does not come by signs. To gain faith, seek the gifts of the spirit (the gifts that will correct our imperfections - gift of being charitable, humble, loving, etc. etc.)... gifts that change our very nature. When we have changed our nature, feel the help of God in changing our nature, step by step, day by day support - a long lasting relationship with the Holy spirit, with God, only then will we be sure that He is there with us. A single vision/sign/miracle will be forgotten / temporary / fleeting. Only the lasting influence that comes when we want to change, want to be better, when we grasp to be led/guided by His hand - this is where we gain faith in Him. Friendships do not form overnight. Trust does not form overnight. Niether does faith.

 

[blackout]

Whenever I asked St. Phanourious for anything, I always got it. St. Phanourious looked out for me. After I realized I didn't believe in god, I had a harder time over losing St. Phanourios than I did over losing god. St. Phanourios and the Mother of God.

I somehow doubt it was St. Phanourious,
but rather your BELIEF in St. Phanourious...
that got you what you asked for.

 

[Katzpur]

Only except one of us is lying. To explain that... The essential question is why do you believe there is god and when did you make that choice?

Your answer is you don't care now nor did you care when I first asked the question.

Really?

I would say you're right but you have our positioned reversed. I don't care why you believe or when you believe. You care. Whats odd is the inverse situation satisfies you? (Your claim...) I was not seeking satisfaction. =D

I said I'm done, Balance. I've explained my position as well as I can and I have no desire to argue with you further about it.

 

[Storm]

This is a popular cop out...

No more than unbelievers' insistance that their conclusion wasn't a choice, either. IIRC, you've said that yourself, so why the double standard?

What does it mean exactly?

That everyone believes whatever for the same reason: because it makes more sense than the alternative(s).

You either consciously or unconsciously chose to believe. If you think you had no choice what does that mean?

"Unconsciously chose"? That's rather oxymoronic. "Choice" is deliberate, not unconscious.

I know it's been said that God-belief isn't a choice, but religion is, and I more or less agree with that.

I think the wide spectrum of beliefs coincides with a spectrum of control. IOW, how much choice there is in the answer depends on the question being asked. "Is there a God?" is pretty much involuntary. "Jesus is God" offers a bit more opurtunity for deliberation, but only a bit. "God wants me to join x denomination, because they're the True Christians (TM)," that's on your head.

 

[Little Joe Gould]

This question seems slightly too dubious for me to give a definite answer. If you are merely talking about God, well you have to consider the fact that people define God differently. For example, the pantheist who believes God to be all things and everything is left with no "choice" as to whether there is a God or not, because to believe there is no God is to deny that anything exists at all in the first place. However, for those who personify God will find themselves having to make a choice as to whether a being with an omniscient mind who is pulling the strings behind the curtain exists or not. Some definitions of God allow for no concrete evidence of his existence available, therefore in those situations someone would have to make a choice. But for those who label God as concrete "things" that are able to be interpreted through the five senses, then yes there remains no choice.

 

[Sententia]

No more than unbelievers' insistance that their conclusion wasn't a choice, either. IIRC, you've said that yourself, so why the double standard?

As once I was a theist I think the choice was made to become an atheist. At some point I rejected my indoctrination. Calling it not a choice now is simply pointing out that there is no evidence that would cause me to choose god solutions. Its clear though that at some point I became an atheist and rejected my religious upbringing.

That everyone believes whatever for the same reason: because it makes more sense than the alternative(s).

"Unconsciously chose"? That's rather oxymoronic. "Choice" is deliberate, not unconscious.

I know it's been said that God-belief isn't a choice, but religion is, and I more or less agree with that.

I think the wide spectrum of beliefs coincides with a spectrum of control. IOW, how much choice there is in the answer depends on the question being asked. "Is there a God?" is pretty much involuntary. "Jesus is God" offers a bit more opurtunity for deliberation, but only a bit. "God wants me to join x denomination, because they're the True Christians (TM)," that's on your head.

I think you can believe whatever you want for whatever reasons you chose. But at some point, whether you remember it or not, you chose your beliefs. (Or someone chose for you and you have never had need to question or re-evaluate.)

The point I was most recently making is that while you might plausibly be genetically predisposed to more readily accept religion, god concepts, authoritarian concepts and the like you still chose to believe in god. Either by not questioning the choice made for you or by actively making the choice. Unconscious choice vrs pursposed conscious choice is a different debate more at home in a free will debate. (IMHO)

 

[Storm]

Choice is defined by dictionary.com as: an act or instance of choosing; selection: Her choice of a computer was made after months of research. His parents were not happy with his choice of friends.

There is no such thing as an unconscious choice.

 

[YmirGF]

There is no such thing as an unconscious choice.

True, Stormy, but do you think that perhaps suspension of disbelief might be a more accurate way to put it?

 

[Storm]

Not really.

 

[Sententia]

Choice is defined by dictionary.com as: an act or instance of choosing; selection: Her choice of a computer was made after months of research. His parents were not happy with his choice of friends.

There is no such thing as an unconscious choice.

Storm the concept of unconscious choice is that you may take actions without being aware of either your reasons for taking the actions or the actions themselves.

The debate of which I already said would be more at home in a thread about free will but will, quite frankly, not cease to be based on your say so.

Further you defining choice misses the point. We are not debating what a choice is but the freedom to make the choice. You can choose... that is... MAKE a choice unconsciously or consciously.

I, most likely, unconsciously made the choice to leave faith and gods and superstition behind before I consciously chose to do so.

You lost your way with your first logical fallacy:

"Choice" is deliberate, not unconscious.

Which i took to mean that either choice as you are defining it or some choices are deliberate.

What you seem to be implying is: (Red Clarifications Mine)

"Choice" is *always* deliberate, not *and never* unconscious.

Which of course is false.