Bible Alone.. For Catholic's

[Dogknox20]

This idea of: ONLY the Bible is mans Authority is NOT scriptural! This teaching of "Bible ALONE" is a man made TRADITION; until the great De-Formation of the Christian Church it was unheard of, for the first 1700 years Church brought Jesus and salvation to the peoples, there were very few bibles!
Martin Luther introduced this tradition; his idea was to remove Church from his life!
Scriptures are clear: "Jesus gave his AUTHORITY to the Church to Teach all nations"!
Fact is... The Church came long before there were any bibles!

 

[Spiderman]

It is irrefutable that the first Christians were not Bible Christians! That is actually easy to prove historically and impossible to present any historical evidence to suggest otherwise, that "Bible Christians" didn't exist amongst the first Christians.

Even centuries later, when the Catholic Church decided what the New Testament Canon was, and put together the first Christian Bible from councils Rome, Carthage, and Hippo, they still were not Bible Christians, because not even 1% of Christians could own a Bible before the printing press, and even those who could after the printing press , often didn't know how to read.

Jesus never left Christians with a Bible, just a Church. The Bible doesn't say to obey the Bible. It does say "if they refuse to listen to the Church, let them be to you a Pagan or tax collector."

So, I'm not even Catholic, but am still well aware through common sense and overwhelming historical evidence and facts, that "Bible Christians" are a "Johnny Come Lately" for Christianity!

Bible Christians have also proven that the Bible alone doesn't work because the Bible has so many verses stating the opposite of what other verses state.

The Bible alone proves the Bible alone cannot be your only authority, and the splintering of Bible Christians into thousands of denominations (and rational thought) even further proves that the Bible alone cannot be the sole rule for faith, morals, and Theology!

I'm a Shinto adherent, disagreeing with anything that goes against my conscience, including some of the Catechism, but can see the errors of Sola Scriptura and "Bible Christians".

I cannot embrace eternal damnation, as such Dogma sickens me, and it isn't healthy to believe something over 99% of people do (mortal sin) can send you to eternal damnation and misery forever, so I'm not praising Catholicism or Catechism as being 100% without error. I don't think God is that cruel!

However, the errors of Protestantism are so blatantly clear, have caused so much bigotry, so much division, and so much madness (like people trying to interpret revelation, the rapture, the Antichrist, the whore of Babylon, and countless Scriptures that are toxic) , that it's obvious Protestantism has clearly done a huge disservice to Christianity and the world, divided people like crazy, has worse scandals percapita (even worse sex scandals among clergy) than Catholicism, that the Protestant reformation is one of the worst Religious movements there have been in Abrahamic Monotheism.

What makes Protestantism worse, is it appears to be authentic Christianity, yet will use the Bible they got from the Catholic Church to repeatedly bash the Church they got it from.

They condemn people for making Religious images, when Christians did so for over a thousand five hundred years prior, condemn devotion to Mary and the Saints (which every Christian Church on earth was fine with for over 1500 years) and their Doctrines (incompatible with Bible and Christianity) have done more to divide , weaken, and confuse people and make a mess of Christianity, that it is the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity!

As I said, Protestantism is a "Johnny Come Lately", and highly unbiblical, greatest disruption of unity, greatest source of confusion to afflict the sheepfold!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This idea of: ONLY the Bible is mans Authority is NOT scriptural! This teaching of "Bible ALONE" is a man made TRADITION; until the great De-Formation of the Christian Church it was unheard of, for the first 1700 years Church brought Jesus and salvation to the peoples, there were very few bibles!
Martin Luther introduced this tradition; his idea was to remove Church from his life!
Scriptures are clear: "Jesus gave his AUTHORITY to the Church to Teach all nations"!
Fact is... The Church came long before there were any bibles!

Not to mention that the vast majority of people have been illiterate during the majority of Christianity's existence. The majority of Christians for the first 18 or 19 centuries of Christianity wouldn't have been able to read a Bible even if it were freely available! I doubt God was basing their salvation on that. That's partially why Christian churches developed such intricate art, so the illiterate masses in the pews could visually learn salvation history.

To be able to read and quote the Bible is a privilege that most Christians, including great Saints and martyrs, had no access to. But it appears to be a squandered privilege at this point.

 

[Spiderman]

Not to mention that the vast majority of people have been illiterate during the majority of Christianity's existence. The majority of Christians for the first 18 or 19 centuries of Christianity wouldn't have been able to read a Bible even if it were freely available! I doubt God was basing their salvation on that. That's partially why Christian churches developed such intricate art, so the illiterate masses in the pews could visually learn salvation history.

To be able to read and quote the Bible is a privilege that most Christians, including great Saints and martyrs, had no access to. But it appears to be a squandered privilege at this point.

True!

I guess even I had not fully considered how important crucifixes, icons, statues, stained glass windows, glorious structures and Cathedrals, and Christian art was needed as a way to teach illiterate people and raise their minds and hearts to Heavenly realities and concepts.

I also hadn't fully considered how a large amount of canonized Saints were probably largely or entirely illiterate.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

This idea of: ONLY the Bible is mans Authority is NOT scriptural! This teaching of "Bible ALONE" is a man made TRADITION; until the great De-Formation of the Christian Church it was unheard of, for the first 1700 years Church brought Jesus and salvation to the peoples, there were very few bibles!
Martin Luther introduced this tradition; his idea was to remove Church from his life!
Scriptures are clear: "Jesus gave his AUTHORITY to the Church to Teach all nations"!
Fact is... The Church came long before there were any bibles!

However, as Jesus taught, the spiritually older men are to teach from the Scriptures as religious truth - John 17:17; 1 Timothy 3:1-10; 1 Timothy 6:3; Titus 1:9 ' the faithful word ' is God's Word the Bible.
Jesus warned about the 'traditions of men' ( traditions or customs taught as being Scripture but Not Scripture ) -Matthew 15:9

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

True!

I guess even I had not fully considered how important crucifixes, icons, statues, stained glass windows, glorious structures and Cathedrals, and Christian art was needed as a way to teach illiterate people and raise their minds and hearts to Heavenly realities and concepts.

I also hadn't fully considered how a large amount of canonized Saints were probably largely or entirely illiterate.

It's commonly recognized by scholars that that's one of the reasons why Christian churches developed intricate art such as the stained glass windows. It was easier to teach the people through symbols. Mass literacy only became a thing relatively recently, starting in the 19th century and picking up steam in the 20th century, mainly through compulsory education enforced by the government. There's still many illiterate adults, even in the West, let alone outside of that, though. We still have adult literacy courses in major cities due to that.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

......Scriptures are clear: "Jesus gave his AUTHORITY to the Church to Teach all nations"! Fact is... The Church came long before there were any bibles!

The Bible was completed I find by the very end of the first century.
Yes, Jesus gave authority to the Christian congregation ( church is the building ) to Teach all nations.
Teach Scripture as being 'religious truth' just as Jesus taught - John 17:17
The whole Christian congregation was given the instruction to tell the world about the good news of God's Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) just as Jesus instructed at Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8

 

[Dogknox20]

It is irrefutable that the first Christians were not Bible Christians! That is actually easy to prove historically and impossible to present any historical evidence to suggest otherwise, that "Bible Christians" didn't exist amongst the first Christians.

Even centuries later, when the Catholic Church decided what the New Testament Canon was, and put together the first Christian Bible from councils Rome, Carthage, and Hippo, they still were not Bible Christians, because not even 1% of Christians could own a Bible before the printing press, and even those who could after the printing press , often didn't know how to read.

Jesus never left Christians with a Bible, just a Church. The Bible doesn't say to obey the Bible. It does say "if they refuse to listen to the Church, let them be to you a Pagan or tax collector."

So, I'm not even Catholic, but am still well aware through common sense and overwhelming historical evidence and facts, that "Bible Christians" are a "Johnny Come Lately" for Christianity!

Bible Christians have also proven that the Bible alone doesn't work because the Bible has so many verses stating the opposite of what other verses state.

The Bible alone proves the Bible alone cannot be your only authority, and the splintering of Bible Christians into thousands of denominations (and rational thought) even further proves that the Bible alone cannot be the sole rule for faith, morals, and Theology!

I'm a Shinto adherent, disagreeing with anything that goes against my conscience, including some of the Catechism, but can see the errors of Sola Scriptura and "Bible Christians".

I cannot embrace eternal damnation, as such Dogma sickens me, and it isn't healthy to believe something over 99% of people do (mortal sin) can send you to eternal damnation and misery forever, so I'm not praising Catholicism or Catechism as being 100% without error. I don't think God is that cruel!

However, the errors of Protestantism are so blatantly clear, have caused so much bigotry, so much division, and so much madness (like people trying to interpret revelation, the rapture, the Antichrist, the whore of Babylon, and countless Scriptures that are toxic) , that it's obvious Protestantism has clearly done a huge disservice to Christianity and the world, divided people like crazy, has worse scandals percapita (even worse sex scandals among clergy) than Catholicism, that the Protestant reformation is one of the worst Religious movements there have been in Abrahamic Monotheism.

What makes Protestantism worse, is it appears to be authentic Christianity, yet will use the Bible they got from the Catholic Church to repeatedly bash the Church they got it from.

They condemn people for making Religious images, when Christians did so for over a thousand five hundred years prior, condemn devotion to Mary and the Saints (which every Christian Church on earth was fine with for over 1500 years) and their Doctrines (incompatible with Bible and Christianity) have done more to divide , weaken, and confuse people and make a mess of Christianity, that it is the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity!

As I said, Protestantism is a "Johnny Come Lately", and highly unbiblical, greatest disruption of unity, greatest source of confusion to afflict the sheepfold!

.
Spiderman It's good to meet you... I must say; you would make a good Catholic; you got it right on target!
If eternal damnation bothers you... Don't quit or give up... Those people in Gehenna are Satan's children! God is "love" as the scriptures are very clear.. You must love to enter heaven.
The people in eternal punishment are there by their choice!

 

[Dogknox20]

Not to mention that the vast majority of people have been illiterate during the majority of Christianity's existence. The majority of Christians for the first 18 or 19 centuries of Christianity wouldn't have been able to read a Bible even if it were freely available! I doubt God was basing their salvation on that. That's partially why Christian churches developed such intricate art, so the illiterate masses in the pews could visually learn salvation history.

To be able to read and quote the Bible is a privilege that most Christians, including great Saints and martyrs, had no access to. But it appears to be a squandered privilege at this point.

Saint Frankenstein good to meet you.. I add.. Bibles were chained down because they were costly works of art! Only the very very rich could own a bible! The protestor will say; "See the Catholic Church did not want people to read the bible they chained them down!"

 

[Dogknox20]

However, as Jesus taught, the spiritually older men are to teach from the Scriptures as religious truth - John 17:17; 1 Timothy 3:1-10; 1 Timothy 6:3; Titus 1:9 ' the faithful word ' is God's Word the Bible.
Jesus warned about the 'traditions of men' ( traditions or customs taught as being Scripture but Not Scripture ) -Matthew 15:9

URAVIP2ME Yes I agree..... and add the words of God are useful for teaching, rebuking, training and correcting but they are NOT ALONE used! Jesus left behind a Church with his AUTHORITY to use the scriptures to Train, Correct, Teach and Rebuke she the Catholic Church is the Authority!

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Books can't teach correct train or rebuke people do they use books but books are NOT ALONE used!

 

[Dogknox20]

The Bible was completed I find by the very end of the first century.
Yes, Jesus gave authority to the Christian congregation ( church is the building ) to Teach all nations.
Teach Scripture as being 'religious truth' just as Jesus taught - John 17:17
The whole Christian congregation was given the instruction to tell the world about the good news of God's Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) just as Jesus instructed at Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8

.
URAVIP2ME I must point out there was only ONE (1) Christian congregation until 1054 A.D.! That ONE Congregation was the ONLY Church Jesus established, it is the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church none other!

You are a little mixed up.. Yes there were many letters kicking around, many manuscripts people were using as scriptures in the first century but no one knew for sure what was truly inspired words of God and what were not! Fact was many phony letters were creeping in.
URAVIP2ME It took the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church to sort it all out, long after the first century! The Pope closed the Canon in (about) 400 A.D. The Catholic Church guided by God (Holy Spirit) decided the truly Inspired words of God from the phony ones: Then she put all the truly inspired words of God into ONE Book she named "The Bible"! The Protestant MUST accept the Catholic Church got it right or they might as well toss their bible out the stinking window if they reject the Church!

 

[Harel13]

I must point out there was only ONE (1) Christian congregation until 1054 A.D.! That ONE Congregation was the ONLY Church Jesus established, it is the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church none other!

Eastern Orthodox wasn't a church at the time? (I think Pope Urban might disagree with you)

 

[stvdv]

New This idea of: ONLY the Bible is mans Authority is NOT scriptural!

I agree, and I'm glad to read this from a Christian, that happens not often

Indeed "ONLY the Bible is man's Authority" clearly is wrong. God gave so many other Great Scriptures, which can be used also as "man's Authority". E.g. Koran, Yoga Vasistha, Gita, Upanishads, or Scriptures from Buddhism, Zarathustra, Bahai, etc.

And for those who prefer to go without Scriptures, God provides each human with Love and conscience, common sense and the power of discrimination. When used well, this is sufficient also. Though I must admit, that the Scriptures seem to accelerate my progress. And being with Saints and Sages has been speeding up this process even more

 

[Brian2]

This idea of: ONLY the Bible is mans Authority is NOT scriptural! This teaching of "Bible ALONE" is a man made TRADITION; until the great De-Formation of the Christian Church it was unheard of, for the first 1700 years Church brought Jesus and salvation to the peoples, there were very few bibles!
Martin Luther introduced this tradition; his idea was to remove Church from his life!
Scriptures are clear: "Jesus gave his AUTHORITY to the Church to Teach all nations"!
Fact is... The Church came long before there were any bibles!

The teachings of the RC Church should not disagree with the Bible however.
I would also say that the teachings of the RC Church should not add to the teachings of the Bible.
I would say that the scriptures came along before there was any RC Church.

 

[Brian2]

This idea of: ONLY the Bible is mans Authority is NOT scriptural! This teaching of "Bible ALONE" is a man made TRADITION; until the great De-Formation of the Christian Church it was unheard of, for the first 1700 years Church brought Jesus and salvation to the peoples, there were very few bibles!
Martin Luther introduced this tradition; his idea was to remove Church from his life!
Scriptures are clear: "Jesus gave his AUTHORITY to the Church to Teach all nations"!
Fact is... The Church came long before there were any bibles!

Why was the RC Church so against the translation and publishing of the Bible for mass consumption?

 

[stvdv]

This teaching of "Bible ALONE" is a man made TRADITION

"Bible ALONE" I can agree with
IF the person means "All I need is Bible (Love)"

ONLY the Bible is mans Authority is NOT scriptural!

"ONLY Bible (leads to "God")" I disagree with
As it is exclusive, belittling other Scriptures

 

[Redemptionsong]

This idea of: ONLY the Bible is mans Authority is NOT scriptural! This teaching of "Bible ALONE" is a man made TRADITION; until the great De-Formation of the Christian Church it was unheard of, for the first 1700 years Church brought Jesus and salvation to the peoples, there were very few bibles!
Martin Luther introduced this tradition; his idea was to remove Church from his life!
Scriptures are clear: "Jesus gave his AUTHORITY to the Church to Teach all nations"!
Fact is... The Church came long before there were any bibles!

What you say here is not accurate. The apostles used the Hebrew scriptures to convince Jews that Jesus was the Christ.

The Holy Spirit, which works in tandem with scripture, acts as a rain to water the word. Without the Holy Spirit the word is not brought to life, or even understood.

The NT scriptures became necessary when the eyewitnesses to Christ, the apostles, were no longer around to give testimony or leadership.

The written word reveals the living word, just as the living word reveals the written word.

 

[exchemist]

This idea of: ONLY the Bible is mans Authority is NOT scriptural! This teaching of "Bible ALONE" is a man made TRADITION; until the great De-Formation of the Christian Church it was unheard of, for the first 1700 years Church brought Jesus and salvation to the peoples, there were very few bibles!
Martin Luther introduced this tradition; his idea was to remove Church from his life!
Scriptures are clear: "Jesus gave his AUTHORITY to the Church to Teach all nations"!
Fact is... The Church came long before there were any bibles!

Well yes, but you have to recognise that Luther's aim was a noble one: to strip away the barnacles of doubtful dogma and practices that had accumulated on the hull of the ship during all that time. The Catholic church of his day was rife with corruption. I actually think Luther did the Catholic church a favour, forcing it, in time, to confront its defects and reform.

I agree though it is sad to see the splintering of some of the Protestant churches into groups that seem to make up their own homespun theology from naive readings of the bible. The danger of sola scriptura, it seems to me, is that one cannot avoid interpreting the bible, given that its messages are not always obvious and can appear to conflict. It is therefore better, surely, to have interpretation done by people who have studied and learnt from previous interpreters, handing on a tradition of interpretation, in the same way that we hand on a body of scientific knowledge from one generation to the next. Without that, there is always the risk of reinventing the wheel, perhaps badly. This, for example, is what we see with the denial of science by some extreme Protestant groups. It is obviously quixotic and bonkers to claim - in defiance of actual evidence - that science is wrong, just because of what one has read in an ancient text.

 

[Rival]

Eastern Orthodox wasn't a church at the time? (I think Pope Urban might disagree with you)

The Orthodox Church uses or used the same title iirc, but they are both called Catholic still.

 

[JonSL]

Just so folks know, we can all access the Vatican website. It is extensive and certainly includes the teaching of the Church.

The monastic community has long recognized that the authority of man and the institution of the Church is not the same as the will of Jesus.

Both St. Francis of Assisi and St. John of the Cross, were, for a time, considered heretics.

Meaning, of course, that the existing authority of the day, judged them as the complete opposite of what they were.

Human beings run institutions. Human beings are flawed.

But, we can't throw out the baby with the bathwater. We take the general teaching and thrust of religious teaching and try to understand its intent and how it is meant for our lives. That is all we can do. Religion is a lot more than just following a bunch of rules laid down by authoritarian people. They are not the Church. Jesus is the Church. His love is the Church, His compassion is the Church.