Bible as literature

[Ehav4Ever]

When a world religion course is taught by Christians, it tends to devolve into a "why all these religions are wrong except Christianity" course.

You could be right. Which I wouldn't mind, if I had to take the class. As long as I get to challenge them on why and where they got their concepts from. I would then audit classes taught by people with other backgrounds.

 

[exchemist]

No, Europe is no longer Christian, if it ever was. Roman Catholicism is not necessarily Christian as Roman Catholicism has always accomodated non-Christian behaviours. That is defamatory of Christianity. I strongly suspect you don't even understand true Christian values; and are confusing deism with Christianity. E.g. Christianity does not promote or allow LGBT under any form of Christian law. Christianity does not tolerate Islam.


Why does a child need to know "basic knowledge" about the "beliefs" of other religions? How do you even know that other religions have any beliefs as such? Many do not and are just philosophies. What is belief versus tradition versus culture versus law versus imperial decree versus philosophy? How do you distinguish? How can a child be expected to understand the subtleties of heretical religion, when he doesn't even know true religion?

In this day it is politically incorrect to teach other religions as wrong, which makes them unfit to be taught to children.


Gnosticism is to teach children the way of heresy. It's different when you're an adult. When you're a child, you need only to be taught what is true, not heathen nonsense, as to which, the whole world is full of it.

Ah you invoke the "No True Scotsman" approach, I see.

I suspect, from that and the tosh you are writing, that you must be one of these exclusivist extreme Protestant types that I despise so deeply.

 

[eik]

Ah you invoke the "No True Scotsman" approach, I see.

Which proves that you haven't got the faintest about you're talking about. Even Paul dismissed most Jews as "not true Jews" because contrary to your "no true scotsman" fallacy, it is possible to identify God's standards with some precision.

I suspect, from that and the tosh you are writing, that you must be one of these exclusivist extreme Protestant types that I despise so deeply.

I guess the feeling would be entirely mutual then, given you seem to be promoting non-Christian values are part of Christianity (1 Cor 5:11). I am no more an exclusivist than any of the apostles or Christ himself.

 

[eik]

I The secular state created (inevitably) by Chrisitan culture ha freedom of religion --- it is not out there giving preferential treatment to religions other than Chrisitanity. Remember, its just good, old majority rule with minority rights protected.

There is no such thing as Christian culture, unless it is freedom of conscience. However freedom of conscience is not per se anything to do with the Christian religion, but necessary for its practice, otherwise we're into martyrdoms.

Freedom of conscience can be extended into plainly antichristian behaviours, which the US has tolerated since the year dot, and is also consistent with the gravest evils, such as toleration of all kinds of diabolical cults.

So I am not certain that the term "christian culture" has any real meaning, It doesn't appear in scripture.

I think actually that the US does a pretty good job of keeping the first amendment. Oh, the pendulum will swing one way an then back the other, of course. But any time we go too far in either violating the establishment clause or the not prohibiting the free exercise, the tide eventually turns. For example, we have been in an era of "no establishment" for a half a century, an now we are swinging back to favoring the "not prohibit the free exercise of" clause again.

The first amendment is obviously not Christian, as it is consistent with the practice of all kinds of diabolical religions.

I of course disagree with the idea of teaching chrisitan doctrine in the public schools, unless its some sort of elective -- it is good for chidren and young adults to learn of different faiths, and not just chrisitanity. I'm thankful that the common core curriculum in my state incudes teaching a bit about the major religions of the world.

I didn't find myself in the least disadvantaged by knowing nothing of Islam until quite late in my life, until I was well over 30. I find the bible teaches what anyone needs to know of religion.

 

[exchemist]

Which proves that you haven't got the faintest about you're talking about. Even Paul dismissed most Jews as "not true Jews" because contrary to your "no true scotsman" fallacy, it is possible to identify God's standards with some precision.


I guess the feeling would be entirely mutual then, given you seem to be promoting non-Christian values are part of Christianity (1 Cor 5:11). I am no more an exclusivist than any of the apostles or Christ himself.

Much....

Have a nice day.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

For twenty years the Bible puzzled me. I couldn't make heads or tails. But... With a lot of TRIAL AND ERROR, I THINK that the Old testament is the real deal. From the New testament, the three last gospels are the real deal. the matthew gospel is fiction and it's literature. Generally, the new testament is more complicated. Whatever Mark, Luke and John wrote are the real deal. Matthews account is fiction. I am still searching the New testament actually.

Whether a text is "the real deal" or fiction, its always still literature, since it is written text.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

There's no such thing as a Christian culture. Society must be near 100% Christian for it to be so. If there was it died out some centuries ago. Christianity is a faith, not a culture. There is such a thing as a tolerance culture which allows Christianity to flourish, but in this age, it is increasingly intolerant of Christianity.


The very teaching of "alternative" faiths is a denial of Christianity. It is not surprising that this religious "education" is only producing more and more atheists.

Christianity denies the validity of "other" faiths, where other faiths deny the validity of Christianity. I don't think it is in the least valuable for children to be taught other faiths than the Christian one. That is gnosticism: the promotion of knowledge over faith.

Sorry but this is just nonsense. You don't need to have everyone be a Christian for the culture to be a Christian culture. The fact that this culture has been phenominally influenced by Christianity, is what makes it a Christian culture.

For anyone to be ingorant of the basic beliefs and practices of religions being practices in our ever smaller word, is a tragedy. Too many serious problems arise out of misunderstanding (i.e. some ignorant people thing Catholics view Mary as god, or that all muslims want an earthly rather than spiritual struggle (jihad), etc.). Wars have even started over inability to understand each other. It is just no longer acceptable in this world to be ignorant of world religions. Religious education is as important as science education or any other domain.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I kinda think that if you really wanted to study it as literature, you kinda have to question a lot of the religion in it. The religious students or their parents may actually have a problem with that

Well you have to, for a time, take an objective approach towards it. But there is no conflict between doing that and having faith.

For example, sometimes I'll just read a book for the sheer fun of it, enjoying the twists and turns of its plot. Other times, I might reflect over the book from an objective viewpoint -- "clever how the author brought back that same imagery here," or "This is really similar to another coming of age story, X, in that it a, b, and c." Usually when I read, I go back and forth between the immersion perspective and the objective perspective. It never bothers me. And as a believer, I have no problem with studying the Tanakh using the documentary hypothesis or anything else. I'm just saying that this is not a problem for me, and I don't see how it has to be a problem for anyone else.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

There was the enlightenment where they go back to the ancient greeks, and there were the norse who last 500 more years than that. Those two things might be taken to represent science and individualism

I don't really know if language gets a pass here. When I hear people give etymological explanations, and discuss the general shape of this language, it's not entirely clear that only christian concepts are getting the importance. I can't discuss this in the greatest detail myself however

An example might be how some concepts in english might be translated radically different from the hebrew. it seems like the Jewish followers often speak of this. Overall, isn't this thought to be because there isn't an actual translation error, but because a lot of things actually don't translate that well. If the latter is true, then there is a true linguistic difference at play, at the foundation, and that means that the english language might not really share the same values as the bible, because it can't

Its not that Christianity is the only infuence in western civilization. It's that it's the greatest influence.

And a well educated person will also know some about Norse and Greek mythology. Schools need to be on top of that as well.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Why stop at one religion? In such a format, one could say learn the basics of all religions and all non-religions and the arguements for and against them.

I do think that world religions should be taught, as I have mentioned in other posts. I don't think a person is truly educated unless they have a very well rounded education, far beyond reading and writing. I think an educated person has an appreciation for art, music, and dance, for example, and I pull out my hair when districts cut these programs. so yeah, teach abut other religions for sure.

But, and maybe this just isn't PC, Christianity has a much larger influence on western civilization, even up to today. You have to give more weight to teaching about Christianity than i.e. Wicca, because Wicca is a new religion that hasn't had any influence. (Yeah I know they claim to be ancient, but its just baloney.) Even a religion such as Islam, which I definitely think should be studied, just simply hasn't had the same impact on western civilization.

Again, remember I'm not Christian, I'm Jewish. So I'm not saying these things as a kind of sneak attack to make the country a Christian theocracy.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, Europe is no longer Christian, if it ever was. Roman Catholicism is not necessarily Christian as Roman Catholicism has always accomodated non-Christian behaviours.

See this is why general education should include basic knowledge about Christianity (as well as other religions). Roman Catholics believe in the same base beliefs as all Christian groups -- that Jesus is the Messiah and God and that he died for the sins of the world. The fact that Catholicism has spliced in traditions not in the bible doesn't make it less Christian any more than the fact that Protestantism has separated its from many of the traditions of the Early Church.

To put it a little more casually, you guys look nuts to us non-Christians when you slam each other for your differences in opinions, and ESPECIALLY when you resort to making up lies about each other (this is not an accusation about you specifically).

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Gnosticism is to teach children the way of heresy. It's different when you're an adult. When you're a child, you need only to be taught what is true, not heathen nonsense, as to which, the whole world is full of it.

No, he is right. Gnosticism is an old religion, a set of beliefs about God, the world, and salvation. The word gnosticism comes from Gnostics claiming that they have secret essoteric knowledge that saves them, that others don't have. YOu can teach your kids all sorts of "heresies" that are not gnostic in nature.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Well you have to, for a time, take an objective approach towards it. But there is no conflict between doing that and having faith.

I mean, I like the level of faith in people that you're granting here, but show me some evidence of objective thinking individuals outside of a discussion forum. People seem heterogeneous in their opinions and views, whether they be spiritual or otherwise, but do they grant them moments of detachment

 

[Thief]

What do you all think about the Bible being taught as liturature in the public schools?

I know that when I tutor kids, there are so many different literary allusions to the bible in liturature and history. And the kids don't get them because they do not have a background where Bible is taught.

I think that regardless of our being a secular state, this is pretty much a chrisitan country -- chrisitans of various sorts, catholics protestant and eastern orthodox, make up the overwhelmingly largest block in the country even in the day and ages of "Nones." We cannot deny that this is still essentially a christian cuulture, and to understand western civ and the liturary classics, a baseline of biblical knowledge is needed. So I'd like to see the bible be taught as literature in teh high schools, maybe even in junior high. For all kids.

Teachers would have to be trained so that they don't confuse teaching about the Bible with teaching the religion of Christianity (or Judaism). But such training was already there when I went through my teaching certification way back in the day.

Notice that I'm jewish, yet I think my children need to be familiar with the basic stuff about jesus, even though we don't believe it. It just being culturally enriched.

I think a focus on the technique of parables would be sufficient

the ability to speak in short to the point ....metaphors
is a high level skill

 

[Milton Platt]

What do you all think about the Bible being taught as liturature in the public schools?

I know that when I tutor kids, there are so many different literary allusions to the bible in liturature and history. And the kids don't get them because they do not have a background where Bible is taught.

I think that regardless of our being a secular state, this is pretty much a chrisitan country -- chrisitans of various sorts, catholics protestant and eastern orthodox, make up the overwhelmingly largest block in the country even in the day and ages of "Nones." We cannot deny that this is still essentially a christian cuulture, and to understand western civ and the liturary classics, a baseline of biblical knowledge is needed. So I'd like to see the bible be taught as literature in teh high schools, maybe even in junior high. For all kids.

Teachers would have to be trained so that they don't confuse teaching about the Bible with teaching the religion of Christianity (or Judaism). But such training was already there when I went through my teaching certification way back in the day.

Notice that I'm jewish, yet I think my children need to be familiar with the basic stuff about jesus, even though we don't believe it. It just being culturally enriched.

Not entirely against it if other religious texts are used as well so they can be compared and contrasted, and it is not taught a being historical or factual. I would be more inclined to want comparative religion taught.

That said, you do not need to introduce the Bible to have an understanding of Western (or any other) civilization. You only have to introduce the concept of religion.

 

[eik]

Sorry but this is just nonsense. You don't need to have everyone be a Christian for the culture to be a Christian culture. The fact that this culture has been phenominally influenced by Christianity, is what makes it a Christian culture.

No. What you are speaking is nonsense. A Christian culture would be governed by Christian law. The USA has never been governed by Christian law since the constitution, and is not governed by Christian law. To suppose is to be so is just a way of defaming Christianity.

For anyone to be ingorant of the basic beliefs and practices of religions being practices in our ever smaller word, is a tragedy.

Rubbish.

Too many serious problems arise out of misunderstanding (i.e. some ignorant people thing Catholics view Mary as god, or that all muslims want an earthly rather than spiritual struggle (jihad), etc.). Wars have even started over inability to understand each other. It is just no longer acceptable in this world to be ignorant of world religions. Religious education is as important as science education or any other domain.

It is perfectly acceptable to be ignorant of pagan religions, especially when young. No-one needs to know them. They are for dilettantes: in any event, the mere existence and toleration of such pagan religions vitiates a Christian culture.

 

[eik]

See this is why general education should include basic knowledge about Christianity (as well as other religions). Roman Catholics believe in the same base beliefs as all Christian groups -- that Jesus is the Messiah and God and that he died for the sins of the world.

Belief in Jesus as God is not necessary for Christianity. He was the son of God on this earth.

The fact that Catholicism has spliced in traditions not in the bible doesn't make it less Christian any more than the fact that Protestantism has separated its from many of the traditions of the Early Church.

As Catholicism grew it kept on subsuming pagan religions to itself, beginning with Greek paganism. It is certainly less Christian: many Catholics, even their priests, do not have any faith. In fact faith is not a requirement for Catholicism.

To put it a little more casually, you guys look nuts to us non-Christians when you slam each other for your differences in opinions, and ESPECIALLY when you resort to making up lies about each other (this is not an accusation about you specifically).

Well I presume that a Christianity that deifies a man will always look nuts, but then apostolic Christians believe that a man is always ... just a man, but that Jesus was a man who came from another place.

 

[eik]

No, he is right. Gnosticism is an old religion, a set of beliefs about God, the world, and salvation. The word gnosticism comes from Gnostics claiming that they have secret essoteric knowledge that saves them, that others don't have. YOu can teach your kids all sorts of "heresies" that are not gnostic in nature.

All heresies are gnostic (esoteric knowledge based). It's just that some are more extreme than others.

Christianity emphasizes faith, and that the kingdom of God is of another place. That is why to pretend that this heathen world is a reflection of the kingdom of God is tantamount to straight forward blasphemy. It is a defamation of Christianity to suppose that heaven bears any comparison tp this world, where the (moral) laws of Moses are universally despised.

It is not necessary for anyone to be acquainted with pagan religion. The only reason you would ever suppose that is if you had some admiration for paganism. As Paul says, idols are nothing, Mahomet is nothing, the men of this world are nothing, philosophies have a tendency to puff up, and even the gods of Hinduism are just idols.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

When a world religion course is taught by Christians, it tends to devolve into a "why all these religions are wrong except Christianity" course.

So biased against christians. Most christians are not funamentalists.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Which proves that you haven't got the faintest about you're talking about. Even Paul dismissed most Jews as "not true Jews" because contrary to your "no true scotsman" fallacy, it is possible to identify God's standards with some precision.


I guess the feeling would be entirely mutual then, given you seem to be promoting non-Christian values are part of Christianity (1 Cor 5:11). I am no more an exclusivist than any of the apostles or Christ himself.

Paul employed the No true scotsman fallacy. His thinking was not logical on that topic.