Bible Prophecy as Evidence of a bible writers trustworthiness

[nPeace]

I don't know why this is so difficult for you?
This is a map of where ancient Babylon was. The red line is the walls that surrounded the city. There are many people living there, inside the old walls. They have been there for a long time. Saddam Hussain had a palace inside the walls. There are villages inside where the walls were since 1905? There are people dwelling there. 200 households by 1905. The prophecy is wrong, the end.

(Isaiah 44:26-45:4)
26 The One making the word of his servant come true And completely fulfilling the predictions of his messengers; The One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be inhabited,’ And of the cities of Judah, ‘They will be rebuilt, And I will restore her ruins’;
Cyrus the Great released from captivity to Babylon, and returned the Jews to their homeland, where they rebuilt Jerusalem, after being captives in Babylon for 70 years. Fulfilled.

27 The One saying to the deep waters, ‘Be evaporated, And I will dry up all your rivers’;
Babylon's waters were 'dried up' when they were diverted. Fulfilled.

28 The One saying of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, And he will completely carry out all my will’; The One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’ And of the temple, ‘Your foundation will be laid.’”

45 1 This is what Jehovah says to his anointed one, to Cyrus, Whose right hand I have taken hold of To subdue nations before him, To disarm kings, To open before him the double doors, So that the gates will not be shut: 2 “Before you I will go, And the hills I will level. The copper doors I will break in pieces, And the iron bars I will cut down. 3 I will give you the treasures in the darkness And the hidden treasures in the concealed places, So that you may know that I am Jehovah, The God of Israel, who is calling you by your name. 4 For the sake of my servant Jacob and of Israel my chosen one, I am calling you by your name. I am giving you a name of honor, although you did not know me.
Cyrus - mentioned by name, carried out all that was prophesied. Fulfilled.

(Isaiah 13:19, 20) 19 And Babylon, the most glorious of kingdoms, The beauty and the pride of the Chaldeans, Will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. 20 She will never be inhabited, Nor will she be a place to reside in throughout all generations. No Arab will pitch his tent there, And no shepherds will rest their flocks there.
The city of Babylon lies in ruins - Uninhabited ruins. No one resides in her. Fulfilled.

I believe you are an educated person. So I don't think the problem is understanding. It's something else.
We both know that the city was protected by her walls, and the river.
The walls are not the city, and neither are the insides of the walls, the city.
I am 100% sure you understand that... unless you are ignorant. I don't think you are ignorant.
So there is only one other option... dishonest, but I am not going to suggest you are dishonest. I will suggest that you are trying - like most determined critics, to find one small thing to hold on to, in an effort to challenge Jehovah.
It's a no win situation... on your side, that is.

Babylon - Wikipedia
"By 1905, there were several villages in Babylon, one of which was Qwaresh with about 200 households located within the boundaries of the ancient inner city walls. The village grew due to the need for laborers during the German Oriental Society excavations (1899-1917)."

Yes. "Within the boundaries of the ancient inner city walls".
Thank you. You said it yourself, and you quoted the article. The walls of the city. Not the city.

"On 14 February 1978, the Ba'athist government of Iraq under Saddam Hussein began the "Archaeological Restoration of Babylon Project": reconstructing features of the ancient city atop its ruins. These features included the Southern Palace of Nebuchandnezzar, with 250 rooms, five courtyards, and a 30-meter entrance arch. The project also reinforced the Processional Way, the Lion of Babylon, and an amphitheater constructed in the city's Hellenistic era. In 1982, the government minted a set of seven coins displaying iconic features of Babylon. A Babylon International Festival was held in September 1987, and annually thereafter until 2002 (excepting 1990 and 1991), to showcase this work."

Yes. Saddam Hussein had plans. Those plans involved building walls, and a city... which he did not accomplish, and his palace is on a mound, overlooking the city's ruins. That's as far as he got.
Are some of those walls atop the ruins of Babylon? Partially, but what of it? Saddam Hussein did not rebuild the city. Nor does he reside there.

Seems the one thing you grabbed on to, is just a mere straw.
It reminds me of how critics grab at miracles to make an argument, because they cannot face the fact that they cannot deny all the other evidence.
You don't have anything to say on the fact that the prophecy involved the 1) rebuilding of Jerusalem, 2) the details of the conquest of the city of Babylon, 3) the given name of the conquering king... 4) the end result or final state of the city of Babylon seems as though it has a hole... but it doesn't.

The END.

 

[joelr]

(Isaiah 44:26-45:4)
26 The One making the word of his servant come true And completely fulfilling the predictions of his messengers; The One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be inhabited,’ And of the cities of Judah, ‘They will be rebuilt, And I will restore her ruins’;
Cyrus the Great released from captivity to Babylon, and returned the Jews to their homeland, where they rebuilt Jerusalem, after being captives in Babylon for 70 years. Fulfilled.

27 The One saying to the deep waters, ‘Be evaporated, And I will dry up all your rivers’;
Babylon's waters were 'dried up' when they were diverted. Fulfilled.

28 The One saying of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, And he will completely carry out all my will’; The One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’ And of the temple, ‘Your foundation will be laid.’”

Rebuilding a city and a drying river? You think that's an actual good example of a prophecy? LOL.
Doesn't matter however, Isaiah was written before, during and after the Babylonian exile. Any of that could have been put in after the fact - but do you need that to answer a drying river and the fact that the Persians allowed them to return and rebuild? Not a prophecy.

- The Book of Isaiah...It is identified by a superscription as the words of the 8th-century BCE prophet Isaiah ben Amoz, but there is extensive evidence that much of it was composed during the Babylonian captivity and later.[ Proto-Isaiah (chapters 1–39), containing the words of the 8th-century BCE prophet Isaiah; Deutero-Isaiah (chapters 40–55), the work of an anonymous 6th-century BCE author writing during the Exile; and Trito-Isaiah (chapters 56–66), composed after the return from Exile.[6] Isaiah 1–33 promises judgment and restoration for Judah, Jerusalem and the nations, and chapters 34–66 presume that judgment has been pronounced and restoration follows soon.[7] While virtually no scholars today attribute the entire book, or even most of it, to one person,

45 1 This is what Jehovah says to his anointed one, to Cyrus, Whose right hand I have taken hold of To subdue nations before him, To disarm kings, To open before him the double doors, So that the gates will not be shut: 2 “Before you I will go, And the hills I will level. The copper doors I will break in pieces, And the iron bars I will cut down. 3 I will give you the treasures in the darkness And the hidden treasures in the concealed places, So that you may know that I am Jehovah, The God of Israel, who is calling you by your name. 4 For the sake of my servant Jacob and of Israel my chosen one, I am calling you by your name. I am giving you a name of honor, although you did not know me.
Cyrus - mentioned by name, carried out all that was prophesied. Fulfilled.

SO a fictional narrative says God said something and that fulfills a prophecy???? Are you serious????? It's fiction. If the writer saw a previous prophecy that God would say somethiung, of COURSE they would have God do that in a later passage??? Are you actually that easily fooled?

(Isaiah 13:19, 20) 19 And Babylon, the most glorious of kingdoms, The beauty and the pride of the Chaldeans, Will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. 20 She will never be inhabited, Nor will she be a place to reside in throughout all generations. No Arab will pitch his tent there, And no shepherds will rest their flocks there.
The city of Babylon lies in ruins - Uninhabited ruins. No one resides in her. Fulfilled.

I believe you are an educated person. So I don't think the problem is understanding. It's something else.
We both know that the city was protected by her walls, and the river.
The walls are not the city, and neither are the insides of the walls, the city.
I am 100% sure you understand that... unless you are ignorant. I don't think you are ignorant.
So there is only one other option... dishonest, but I am not going to suggest you are dishonest. I will suggest that you are trying - like most determined critics, to find one small thing to hold on to, in an effort to challenge Jehovah.
It's a no win situation... on your side, that is.

People live there. They live inside where the walls are and outside. But are you now trying to say it's ok that people live inside the walls because the prophecy didn't actually mean "inside where the walls are...??
HA HA HA HA HA That's where the city was?
What do you not get?? Where Babylon was then.......people now live there. They also dwell there. People now live in the space that was then called the city of Babylon? The prophecy says they will not. Prophecy FAILED.
In the 1970s, Saddam Hussein built all sorts of buildings there. They dwelled in those buildings. Whoops, looks like the prophecy failed.

Yes. "Within the boundaries of the ancient inner city walls".
Thank you. You said it yourself, and you quoted the article. The walls of the city. Not the city.

I said inside the walls (uh, like, where the city of Babylon was?) there are now people and buildings dwelling there. Prophecy failed.

Yes. Saddam Hussein had plans. Those plans involved building walls, and a city... which he did not accomplish, and his palace is on a mound, overlooking the city's ruins. That's as far as he got.
Are some of those walls atop the ruins of Babylon? Partially, but what of it? Saddam Hussein did not rebuild the city. Nor does he reside there.

Hussein did in fact live there for a time. The prophecy said no one will ever dwell there. Ever. Prophecy failed. There are other buildings still there now.

Seems the one thing you grabbed on to, is just a mere straw.
It reminds me of how critics grab at miracles to make an argument, because they cannot face the fact that they cannot deny all the other evidence.
You don't have anything to say on the fact that the prophecy involved the 1) rebuilding of Jerusalem, 2) the details of the conquest of the city of Babylon, 3) the given name of the conquering king... 4) the end result or final state of the city of Babylon seems as though it has a hole... but it doesn't.

It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

This didn't happen. There are buildings there now. Hussain lived there during his reign. There are clearly other buildings there right now. Hussain built a palace and used it during his time in power. It's still there and is open to tourists. These are not "straws", this prophecy says clearly it will be like Sodom which means uninhabitable. It meant God-magic would make it impossible to even go there. Yet a tourist attraction is there. A palace operated there in the 80's?
Don;t feel bad, there are about 200 prophecies said by Yahweh that did not come to pass.

Bible: Prophecy and Misquotes

Some of these have been questioned but there is no doubt that some future predictions made about the Israelites simply did not happen. It's just a book of mythology.

that they cannot deny all the other evidence..

What evidence? A few basic predictions that line up, meanwhile 200 sayings that did not come to pass? Of course a few things will turn out correct? It's exactly the same with Islam and Allah? It's also the same with Nostradamus.
The evidence that all the stories are myths from older cultures? We have that evidence.
The archaeological evidence that shows the Bible stories were completely exaggerated? We have that evidence. No proof of any God ever? Got that. 10 Commandments being a cheap knock-off of the Egyptian Code of HAmmurabi (also written on stone by a deity), got that.
It's not real. They are stories. 2000 years ago people believed in Gods. Now we know it's fiction.

 

[Sheldon]

I noticed you sidestepped the issues I’ve raised.

On the contrary, I pointed out that your claims were irrational and why, it is you who has sidestepped the fact that your claims were irrational.

I haven’t found any atheist to effectively address them.

Yes you have, I addressed them, and explained your assertions were irrational, and why. I'm guessing you ignored the others in the same fashion.

 

[nPeace]

Rebuilding a city and a drying river? You think that's an actual good example of a prophecy? LOL.

Yup. Too bad some don't seem to know what a prophecy is.
Need help?

Here we go. I shall only do this once more... because I am a generous guy.
(Isaiah 44:26-28)
26 The One making the word of his servant come true And completely fulfilling the predictions of his messengers; The One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be inhabited,’ And of the cities of Judah, ‘They will be rebuilt, And I will restore her ruins’;

Unfortunately, some have complained about the font colors, so I won't highlight the second part.
However, yes. The fact that what God said came true, is a demonstration of the reliability of God's word.
Jerusalem was sacked. God promised it would be rebuilt, and through whom - Cyrus.
28 The One saying of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, And he will completely carry out all my will’; The One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’ And of the temple, ‘Your foundation will be laid.’”

That's accurate prophecy. Foretelling a future event, in detail.

Doesn't matter however, Isaiah was written before, during and after the Babylonian exile. Any of that could have been put in after the fact - but do you need that to answer a drying river and the fact that the Persians allowed them to return and rebuild? Not a prophecy.

"Could have been". Sure, let's go with the begging for our hopes, wishes, dreams, and desperate claims. LOL.
Don't strain your eyes. Click to expand.

- The Book of Isaiah...It is identified by a superscription as the words of the 8th-century BCE prophet Isaiah ben Amoz, but there is extensive evidence that much of it was composed during the Babylonian captivity and later.[ Proto-Isaiah (chapters 1–39), containing the words of the 8th-century BCE prophet Isaiah; Deutero-Isaiah (chapters 40–55), the work of an anonymous 6th-century BCE author writing during the Exile; and Trito-Isaiah (chapters 56–66), composed after the return from Exile.[6] Isaiah 1–33 promises judgment and restoration for Judah, Jerusalem and the nations, and chapters 34–66 presume that judgment has been pronounced and restoration follows soon.[7] While virtually no scholars today attribute the entire book, or even most of it, to one person,

Um. I tend to believe earlier historians, than fickle modern day 'big-heads'.
Oh, and I believe earlier writers too. Know why?
They prove to be trustworthy.
Here is just one of scores of examples.
Discovering Truth to the Chagrin of Critics

Archaeology: Biblical Ally or Adversary?
It is generally assumed that archaeological digs in the Near East usually confirm the biblical record. In recent years, however, various groups of radical revisionists have been claiming quite the opposite: excavations in Israel and elsewhere show that the early history of the Hebrews is very different from what is claimed in the Pentateuch and the rest of the Old Testament. Some of the more extreme critics, known as “biblical minimalists,” even deny the historicity of Abraham and the patriarchs, the Israelite sojourn in Egypt, the Exodus, and Joshua’s conquest of the Promised Land. They further question whether David and Solomon ever existed, at least as the powerful sovereigns described in the Old Testament.

Archaeological excavations across the past 150 years, however, have yielded more than enough results to demonstrate that such revisionism is vastly overdone and sensationalistic. The product of such shoddy methodology, in fact, relies too heavily on arguments from silence or absence. Again and again, what has been found in the ground has meshed remarkably well with what is claimed in the Old Testament, and truth is not served when radical revisionist critics ignore or misinterpret irrefutable evidence. They claim that they currently stand at the forefront of biblical research, but quite the opposite is the case, and many, if not most, leading archaeologists and biblical scholars reject their extreme conclusions. The spade remains the Bible’s best friend.

Keep up your wild swinging. You would look good in a ring. Yes, you will tire yourself out, but it would be entertaining. LOL.

SO a fictional narrative says God said something and that fulfills a prophecy???? Are you serious????? It's fiction. If the writer saw a previous prophecy that God would say somethiung, of COURSE they would have God do that in a later passage??? Are you actually that easily fooled?

I suppose Hezekiah, Sargon, Jehu, and the whole list of them were fiction too.

People live there. They live inside where the walls are and outside. But are you now trying to say it's ok that people live inside the walls because the prophecy didn't actually mean "inside where the walls are...??
HA HA HA HA HA That's where the city was?

Ha.... Ha.... Ha.... Sounds more like a cry, than a laugh.
Do I need to repeat myself...

Uh....

No.
If you are the guy that believes your house is the territory 100 yards to the wall surrounding it, and its boundary, then I don't envy you. Not one bit, LOL.

What do you not get?? Where Babylon was then.......people now live there. They also dwell there. People now live in the space that was then called the city of Babylon? The prophecy says they will not. Prophecy FAILED.
In the 1970s, Saddam Hussein built all sorts of buildings there. They dwelled in those buildings. Whoops, looks like the prophecy failed.

I said inside the walls (uh, like, where the city of Babylon was?) there are now people and buildings dwelling there. Prophecy failed.

Looks like ruins to me. Maybe I am blind.
Oh wait! there is construction going on. That must be where the people are living.
When you see a city, then we can talk.... or should i say if.

Hussein did in fact live there for a time. The prophecy said no one will ever dwell there. Ever. Prophecy failed. There are other buildings still there now.

Live where? Where did he live?
The man is dead. His life snuffed out, before he could complete his plans.
No. The prophecy came true. No one is living there.
(Isaiah 13:19, 20) 19 And Babylon, the most glorious of kingdoms, The beauty and the pride of the Chaldeans, Will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. 20 She will never be inhabited, Nor will she be a place to reside in throughout all generations. No Arab will pitch his tent there, And no shepherds will rest their flocks there.

Sounds true to me.

Looks that way too.

It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

This didn't happen. There are buildings there now. Hussain lived there during his reign. There are clearly other buildings there right now. Hussain built a palace and used it during his time in power. It's still there and is open to tourists. These are not "straws", this prophecy says clearly it will be like Sodom which means uninhabitable. It meant God-magic would make it impossible to even go there. Yet a tourist attraction is there. A palace operated there in the 80's?
Don;t feel bad, there are about 200 prophecies said by Yahweh that did not come to pass.

Buildings? LOL. The buildings are living there. Oh right.

Bible: Prophecy and Misquotes

Some of these have been questioned but there is no doubt that some future predictions made about the Israelites simply did not happen. It's just a book of mythology.

What evidence? A few basic predictions that line up, meanwhile 200 sayings that did not come to pass? Of course a few things will turn out correct? It's exactly the same with Islam and Allah? It's also the same with Nostradamus.
The evidence that all the stories are myths from older cultures? We have that evidence.
The archaeological evidence that shows the Bible stories were completely exaggerated? We have that evidence. No proof of any God ever? Got that. 10 Commandments being a cheap knock-off of the Egyptian Code of HAmmurabi (also written on stone by a deity), got that.
It's not real. They are stories. 2000 years ago people believed in Gods. Now we know it's fiction.

Already trashed.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

On the contrary, I pointed out that your claims were irrational and why, it is you who has sidestepped the fact that your claims were irrational.

Yet, from the frequency of these experiences, it can easily be deduced that there have been millions of such incidents throughout mankind’s history!

I provided a website…. a Wikipedia article, no less…. that gave details concerning just one entity (Lincoln’s ghost) verified by several trustworthy witnesses.

You sir choose to ignore the ubiquitous nature of such evidences. They are found throughout every culture worldwide.
I’ll grant you, there are many fraudulent accounts, with greed as the motive. But not every single one!
To support my pov, I just need one to be genuine…
To support yours, you need them all to be faked!
Just the posters on RF alone, who’ve had such experiences, are enough to question your accusation of all of their experiences being “irrational”.

I addressed them, and explained your assertions were irrational, and why. I'm guessing you ignored the others in the same fashion.

No, you didn’t. And they didn’t….don’t.

 

[ppp]

Yet, from the frequency of these experiences, it can easily be deduced that there have been millions of such incidents throughout mankind’s history!

That is more induction than deduction. But the fact that it's easy to induce (or maybe adduce) your conclusion does not mean that it is also rational to do so. It was easy to induce that demons cause epilepsy. It was also wrong.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That is more induction than deduction. But the fact that it's easy to induce (or maybe adduce) your conclusion does not mean that it is also rational to do so. It was easy to induce that demons cause epilepsy. It was also wrong.

Causing epilepsy...Yes, rightly so. And lightning, too. But I’m talking about interactions & two-way conversations with these entities.

 

[joelr]

Yup. Too bad some don't seem to know what a prophecy is.
Need help?

Here we go. I shall only do this once more... because I am a generous guy.
(Isaiah 44:26-28)
26 The One making the word of his servant come true And completely fulfilling the predictions of his messengers; The One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be inhabited,’ And of the cities of Judah, ‘They will be rebuilt, And I will restore her ruins’;

Unfortunately, some have complained about the font colors, so I won't highlight the second part.
However, yes. The fact that what God said came true, is a demonstration of the reliability of God's word.
Jerusalem was sacked. God promised it would be rebuilt, and through whom - Cyrus.
28 The One saying of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, And he will completely carry out all my will’; The One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’ And of the temple, ‘Your foundation will be laid.’”

That's accurate prophecy. Foretelling a future event, in detail.

Saying a city will be rebuilt then the captors allow leaders back into the city, you think that's proves it's a supernatural prophecy? HA HA HA When a city is destroyed the first thing the people who live there will do is look to eventually rebuild.
Yes a few things that writers made Yahweh say may actually happen. Cities being rebuilt had ALREADY HAPPENED in previous wars, so this isn't a stretch? But did everything Yahweh say come true? Let's look at just a few - because I am a generous guy.

-

1. God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Hebrews 11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14
2. "In the fourth generation they [Abraham's descendants] shall come hither again." But, if we count Abraham, then their return occurred after seven generations: Abraham, Isaac (Gen 21:1-3), Jacob (Gen.25:19-26),
3. Levi (Gen 35:22-23), Kohath (Ex 6:16), Amramn (Ex 6:18), and Moses (Ex 6:20). 15:1 God promises to make Isaac's descendents as numerous as "the stars of heaven", which, of course, never happened. The Jews have always been, and will always be, a small minority. 22:17-18, 26:
4. God promises to bring Jacob safely back from Egypt, but Jacob dies in Egypt (Gen.47:28-29) 46:3
5. God promises to cast out many nations including the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But he was unable to keep his promise. 33:2
6. God says that the Israelites will destroy all of the peoples they encounter. But he was unable to keep his promise. 7:1, 7:23-24, 31:3
7. God promises to give Joshua all of the land that his "foot shall tread upon." He says that none of the people he encounters will be able to resist him. But later we find that God didn't keep his promise, and that many tribes withstood Joshua's attempt to steal their land. 1:3-5, 3:10, 15:63, 16:10, 17:12-13, 17:17-18, 21:43-45
8. God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But he failed to keep that promise 1:19, 1:21-27, 3:1-5
   
9. "Thy kingdom shall be established for ever."
   God says that Davids's kingdom will last forever. It didn't of course. It was entirely destroyed about 400 years after Solomon's death, never to be rebuilt. 7:13, 16
10. This verse prophesies that Damascus will be completely destroyed and no longer be inhabited. Yet Damascus has never been completely destroyed and is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities. 17:1
11. The river of Egypt (identified as the Nile in RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 19:5
12. "The land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt." Judah never invaded Egypt and was never a military threat to Egypt. 19:17
13. This verse predicts that there shall be five cities in Egypt that speak the Canaanite language. But that language was never spoken in Egypt, and it is extinct now. 19:18
14. These verses predict that there will be an alliance between Egypt, Israel, and Assyria. But there has never been any such alliance, and it's unlikely that it ever will since Assyria no longer exists. 19:23-24
15. Jeremiah prophesies that all nations of the earth will embrace Judaism. This has not happened. 3:17
16. God says he is going to punish Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians for what they have done to his people -- even though God Himself is the one who made the Babylonians attack and enslave Judah! As part of the punishment God will take the land of the Babylonians and "make it perpetual desolations." A false prophecy, since present-day Iraq is quite occupied.25:12-13
17. God prophesies that Babylon will never again be inhabited. But it has been inhabited constantly since the prophecy was supposedly made, and is inhabited still today. 50:39
18. God says that Babylon will be desolate and uninhabited forever. He says that only dragons will live there. But Babylon has been dragon-free and continuously inhabited since then. 51:26, 29, 37, 43, 62, 64
19. Ezekiel prophesies God will protect the Israelites from "the heathen". "And they shall be safe in their land." But the Israelites have never lived peacefully with their neighbors, and they've ne

yeah so all vague prophecies can sometimes come true and sometimes not. It's called random chance. You are focusing on mundane things that did happen. There are facepalm apologetics that will say "oh that prophecy hasn't happened yet. It's like 2500 years later but it's will happen eventually..."
If we are going to wait that long Yahweh could have predicted cars, planes, any number of physics ideas, a galaxy, a supercluster of galaxies, or any number of thousands of possibilities. He could have said germs cause disease so wash your hands. Or things are made of atoms. But he didn't because people were writing this. This prophecy thing is so debunked it's basically flat earth and such a waste of time.
Nostradamus and Islam have some vague prophecies that happened as well. Are you running over to Islam? No.

 

[joelr]

Y

"Could have been". Sure, let's go with the begging for our hopes, wishes, dreams, and desperate claims. LOL.
Don't strain your eyes. Click to expand.
View attachment 59993

Oh Daniel? That is accepted in historicity as a forgery. Dr Carrier presents much of the evidence here, I'll include his opening and closing.
How We Know Daniel Is a Forgery • Richard Carrier

"Even the historicity of Daniel the man is dubious. Unlike other prophets, he has no patronymic, profession, or place of origin, and he first appears in historical records when “Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, by the Kebar River in the land of the Babylonians” lists him with the legendary Noah and Job (Ez. 14:13-14, 14:19-20), treating him as what we would normally identify as a mythical hero, among the “three” heroes of yore possessed of a legendary righteousness and wisdom (Ez. 28:2-3). Noah and Job are notably non-Israelites, and Ezekiel is writing to a non-Israelite audience; odds are, he understood this Daniel therefore to be another non-Israelite hero, hence why he puts these three together like this. None of these three men are likely historical. Ezekiel appears to cite them as such (they seem to come from “mythic time,” not real historical time; they are men “of yore”). And though Daniel was a common Israelite name, in this context the name and identity sounds suspiciously a lot like Danel, a mythical Ugaritic hero; and we know a lot of Jewish mythology is adapted from Ugaritic and similar surrounding cultures. The two names even mean the same thing (Daniel, “God Is My Judge” in Hebrew; Danel, “God Is My Judge” in Ugaritic), and are linked to the same God (Danel’s god El was known as “Father of Years”; Daniel 7:9-10 refers to Daniel’s God as “Ancient of Days,” possibly indicating lore about the Ugaritic Danel may even have been used to construct the text of Daniel), and this name relates directly to the mythical hero’s role (Danel was a judge of renowned god-endorsed wisdom; and the Daniel depicted in the book of Daniel is portrayed as a wise and righteous judge), a common red flag for mythical persons. The conclusion therefore wins on balance of probability that when Ezekiel wrote, he was lumping the Ugaritic Danel in with the other non-Israelite heroes of Noah and Job (who also had counterparts in foreign cultures, e.g. Zisudra and Jobab; likewise Noah is, like Danel, a suspiciously apposite name). There is no mention here of this Daniel being a Jewish prophet; nor of being either Jewish or a prophet; much less of having written a book of his name; or even existing in any recognizable era.

Nevertheless, we’ll set that aside. Because whether mythical or not, this hero “existed” in Jewish literature to be “tapped” as a purported legendary author of the Book of Daniel itself. Is there any reason specific to that book to warrant our concluding it is a forgery? Yes. Quite a lot in fact. And here I’ll summarize that for you. Principal peer-reviewed sources I rely on in this article are C.L. Seow’s Daniel by Westminster Knox Press (2003) and John Collins’ Daniel by Fortress Press (1993), part of the excellent Hermeneia commentary series. See also The Book of Daniel: Composition and Reception, vols. 1 and 2 (Brill, 2002), edited by John Collins and Peter Flint. This is all mainstream scholarly consensus now. Only biblical fundamentalists and similarly desperate believers still hold out hope that Daniel was actually written by an actual Daniel when it purports to have been. Mainstream scholarship has long since left them behind.


Daniel is a forgery, a treatise of cultural and war propaganda created and popularized by the Maccabees, which became so moving and influential, such an emotional touchstone in how it galvanized the Jews and contributed to their rare victory against an oppressor, and such a politically essential text for the Hasmonean regime to subsequently venerate, that it became enshrined as trusted scripture and, like Jeremiah before, reinterpreted as still yet foretelling the final victory of the Jews against all future oppressors. All evidence points to there never even having been such a Jewish prophet before the book of Daniel was fabricated in the 160s B.C. (or, for maybe some of its earlier chapters, in the 4th century B.C., although that remains less certain). Legends of such a prophet may have circulated in previous centuries, evolving from the legendary Ugaritic Danel, just as Noah and Job are myths evolving from the likes of Jobab and Utnapishtim. Many of the tales in Daniel may derive from such oral myths, setting them now in a specific historical era that its authors did not actually know all that well but wanted readers to believe was historically legitimate, resulting in embarrassing and otherwise-inexplicable errors by which we are able now to detect the con. Just think how many forgeries didn’t make this mistake and thus have successfully tricked us into believing them authentic—maybe not many, but that this is an ever-present danger is why we need reasons to trust any text; gullibility is no virtue. And there just are no reasons to trust Daniel, and ample reasons to distrust it. All apologists have are convenient assertions and speculations, declarations without any evidence; which are mere baseless rationalizations of their desperately-needed selective gullibility.

That’s not doing history. It’s pseudohistory. If you want to know what is history, then Daniel is a forgery. No valid method leads to any other conclusion."

 

[joelr]

Um. I tend to believe earlier historians, than fickle modern day 'big-heads'.
Oh, and I believe earlier writers too. Know why?
They prove to be trustworthy.
Here is just one of scores of examples.
Discovering Truth to the Chagrin of Critics

Archaeology: Biblical Ally or Adversary?
It is generally assumed that archaeological digs in the Near East usually confirm the biblical record. In recent years, however, various groups of radical revisionists have been claiming quite the opposite: excavations in Israel and elsewhere show that the early history of the Hebrews is very different from what is claimed in the Pentateuch and the rest of the Old Testament. Some of the more extreme critics, known as “biblical minimalists,” even deny the historicity of Abraham and the patriarchs, the Israelite sojourn in Egypt, the Exodus, and Joshua’s conquest of the Promised Land. They further question whether David and Solomon ever existed, at least as the powerful sovereigns described in the Old Testament.

Archaeological excavations across the past 150 years, however, have yielded more than enough results to demonstrate that such revisionism is vastly overdone and sensationalistic. The product of such shoddy methodology, in fact, relies too heavily on arguments from silence or absence. Again and again, what has been found in the ground has meshed remarkably well with what is claimed in the Old Testament, and truth is not served when radical revisionist critics ignore or misinterpret irrefutable evidence. They claim that they currently stand at the forefront of biblical research, but quite the opposite is the case, and many, if not most, leading archaeologists and biblical scholars reject their extreme conclusions. The spade remains the Bible’s best friend.

Keep up your wild swinging. You would look good in a ring. Yes, you will tire yourself out, but it would be entertaining. LOL.

"wild swinging", that's funny, I thought I was using the worlds most prolific Biblical Archaeologist as a source. Oh wait, I was, and you are using....zero sources? Maybe you could read some actual scholars instead of searching for new emojies to use? Those are great though, use lots of them, it's like elemantery school all over again.

"William Dever, Professor Emeritus at the University of Arizona, has investigated the archeology of the ancient Near East for more than 30 years and authored almost as many books on the subject."
William Dever: From the beginnings of what we call biblical archeology, perhaps 150 years ago, scholars, mostly western scholars, have attempted to use archeological data to prove the Bible. And for a long time it was thought to work. [William Foxwell] Albright, the great father of our discipline, often spoke of the "archeological revolution." Well, the revolution has come but not in the way that Albright thought. The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people.
We have no direct archeological evidence. "Moses" is an Egyptian name. Some of the other names in the narratives are Egyptian, and there are genuine Egyptian elements. But no one has found a text or an artifact in Egypt itself or even in the Sinai that has any direct connection. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. But I think it does mean what happened was rather more modest. And the biblical writers have enlarged the story.

Oh, look the Bible was wrong about Exodus and defeating Cannan!

"
So gradually the old conquest model [based on the accounts of Joshua's conquests in the Bible] began to lose favor amongst scholars. Many scholars now think that most of the early Israelites were originally Canaanites, displaced Canaanites, displaced from the lowlands, from the river valleys, displaced geographically and then displaced ideologically.

So what we are dealing with is a movement of peoples but not an invasion of an armed corps from the outside. A social and economic revolution, if you will, rather than a military revolution. And it begins a slow process in which the Israelites distinguish themselves from their Canaanite ancestors, particularly in religion—with a new deity, new religious laws and customs, new ethnic markers, as we would call them today."

I suppose Hezekiah, Sargon, Jehu, and the whole list of them were fiction too.

No they are not only found in myths that were copied from the Egyptians like Moses. They seem to have been real kings.

Ha.... Ha.... Ha.... Sounds more like a cry, than a laugh.
Do I need to repeat myself...

Uh....

No.
If you are the guy that believes your house is the territory 100 yards to the wall surrounding it, and its boundary, then I don't envy you. Not one bit, LOL.

Still trying? You have already lost this one. As I already pointed out, Hussain had a palace there. Inside the walls. It was finished construction in 1987. Not a house, a palace. He lived there until 2003. 14 years him, his family and a large staff and military guard lived there. Then in 2003 the US made it a command center. This is not possible according to the prophecy. Not even a little, no dwelling. But the prophecy was written by people about a national God. Every nation had a national God (until Hellenism then they all because supreme) but they are not real. This is fiction. So, prophecy failed.

 

[ppp]

That is more induction than deduction. But the fact that it's easy to induce (or maybe adduce) your conclusion does not mean that it is also rational to do so. It was easy to induce that demons cause epilepsy. It was also wrong.

Causing epilepsy...Yes, rightly so. And lightning, too. But I’m talking about interactions & two-way conversations with these entities.

Purported exorcisms of demons are also talking talking about interactions & two-way conversations with those entities.

And you think that your claim is different how?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Purported exorcisms of demons are also talking talking about interactions & two-way conversations with those entities.

And you think that your claim is different how?

It encompasses a lot more than just exorcisms!!

The following is only a small part:
Lincoln's ghost - Wikipedia

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-spooked-presidents-prime-ministers-and-pets/
….A very small sample!

 

[rational experiences]

Basic human intelligence

O earth one planet body with land above sea is unnamed first.

Humans living give anything everything names for human terms.

Science is a human choice proven by human built technologies only.

So science proved it never owned in human man's codings everything that exists.

However as human men used names name of men proved men caused conditions of destructive changes to earth.

The pattern of choice is and was human behaviour only.

O God mountain science law of fused. Is compared to mans heavens beginning thesis gases in heavens opened volcano o.

Origin well is volcanic hell.

Mountains fused earth law hierarchy. Existed in every landed national country. Even islands.

The temples were theories to be transmitting stations built atop mountains where human old technology was agreed used. The same as it is today. Multi national.

In the past it was Multi national.

Countries hit by falling Ra ark radiation lost temples mountains collapsed disintegrated. Seen in earths geology everywhere.

Land of the gate Babylon was an occurrence in multi nations landscape.

Living pre owned nature garden eradicated. Desert type landscape left afterwards was a human teaching.

Guarantee of nuclear science chosen and administered only by man's technology machine inventions.

In some countries both temple and mount destroyed totally. Gods war of God attacking man's civilization only.

 

[ppp]

It encompasses a lot more than just exorcisms!!

The following is only a small part:
Lincoln's ghost - Wikipedia

You open with Mumler. Am I supposed to be taking this seriously? The guy who breaks into his clients apartments to get pictures of their loved ones so he could incorporate them into his "work"?

But hell, even if he had been completely honest, that would have not been sufficient evidence. You are depending on a plethora of anecdote to add up to data.

It does not. It will not.

 

[rational experiences]

Science theories about heavens gas water mass by men. Theories about earth bodies substances first.

Biology never science.

Medical is innate human aware of a human. Is not technically science.

Reason a human has to be living created self presence owned first as two.

The teaching. As humans first presence was never ever just two humans.

The healer medical genesis reasoning medical said two humans have to exist to thesis sacrificed changed biology.

A virtual teaching.

That says sin by human sex produced human evidence that medical research identified us by human term a hurt human.

Only because human sex produced it's own evidence.

Was used in a human law court as evidence healers versus occult nuclear human sciences.

The bible shut. Evidence conferred that nuclear chosen science was destroying life on earth concluded.

No man is science.

God the original human scientific thesis of just men. The known cause.

Destroyer human behaviour in consciousness by personality expressions beliefs. Then enforced by cult group behaviour...forced compliance by life threat.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You open with Mumler. Am I supposed to be taking this seriously? The guy who breaks into his clients apartments to get pictures of their loved ones so he could incorporate them into his "work"?

But hell, even if he had been completely honest, that would have not been sufficient evidence. You are depending on a plethora of anecdote to add up to data.

It does not. It will not.

“Mumler”?!

You didn’t even read them.
Neither article mentions Mumler! (EDIT: Sorry, I just saw where “Mumler” is in the Wikipedia article, a side caption for a photograph.....but he’s not mentioned in the other.)


Your statement, “...even if he had been completely honest, that would have not been sufficient evidence”, belies an unreasoning mindset.
In effect, you’re saying, “even if it were true, I wouldn’t believe it anyways.”

Even tho it was not mentioned, I question Mumler’s photography, also.
I’m aware of the fraud in many of these cases, but as I told another poster: you need every single documented incident to be fabricated. I just need one to be genuine.


And there are too many others, to arbitrarily discount! Among many RF posters, also. I’m not going to call them all, delusional, as you apparently think so. I’m not that naïve.

 

[ppp]

“Mumler”?!

You didn’t even read them.
Neither article mentions Mumler! (EDIT: Sorry, I just saw where “Mumler” is in the Wikipedia article, a side caption for a photograph.....but he’s not mentioned in the other.)

Thanks for the edit. I was already aware of Lincoln picture, as well as most of the stories in the other article.

Your statement, “...even if he had been completely honest, that would have not been sufficient evidence”, belies an unreasoning mindset.
In effect, you’re saying, “even if it were true, I wouldn’t believe it anyways.”

You know that a person can be completely honest, sincere and incorrect, right? Complete honesty is not the equivalent to complete correctness. If it were, then the sun would go around the earth, and demons would be the cause of epilepsy.

Even tho it was not mentioned, I question Mumler’s photography, also.
I’m aware of the fraud in many of these cases, but as I told another poster: you need every single documented incident to be fabricated. I just need one to be genuine.

As I said, I do not think they were all fabricated. I am sure that many people are honestly trying to relate their experiences. What I do not believe are their explanations for their experiences. When you can come up with a way to demonstrate that one ghost exists, and that it can be the cause of any one of these stories, then I will be happy to accept it. But right now, you are depending on quantity instead of quality.

And there are too many others, to arbitrarily discount! Among many RF posters, also. I’m not going to call them all, delusional, as you apparently think so. I’m not that naïve.

I don't know about other posters, but I have moved away from the delusion word as it means something clinically, that I do not intend. But the fact of the matter is that everyone experiences false perceptions from time to time. It is not mental illness, but merely an unfortunate feature of our brains.

 

[Sheldon]

Yup. Too bad some don't seem to know what a prophecy is.
Need help?

Here we go. I shall only do this once more... because I am a generous guy.
(Isaiah 44:26-28)
26 The One making the word of his servant come true And completely fulfilling the predictions of his messengers; The One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be inhabited,’ And of the cities of Judah, ‘They will be rebuilt, And I will restore her ruins’;

Unfortunately, some have complained about the font colors, so I won't highlight the second part.
However, yes. The fact that what God said came true, is a demonstration of the reliability of God's word.
Jerusalem was sacked. God promised it would be rebuilt, and through whom - Cyrus.
28 The One saying of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, And he will completely carry out all my will’; The One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’ And of the temple, ‘Your foundation will be laid.’”

That's accurate prophecy. Foretelling a future event, in detail.


"Could have been". Sure, let's go with the begging for our hopes, wishes, dreams, and desperate claims. LOL.
Don't strain your eyes. Click to expand.
View attachment 59993


Um. I tend to believe earlier historians, than fickle modern day 'big-heads'.
Oh, and I believe earlier writers too. Know why?
They prove to be trustworthy.
Here is just one of scores of examples.
Discovering Truth to the Chagrin of Critics

Archaeology: Biblical Ally or Adversary?
It is generally assumed that archaeological digs in the Near East usually confirm the biblical record. In recent years, however, various groups of radical revisionists have been claiming quite the opposite: excavations in Israel and elsewhere show that the early history of the Hebrews is very different from what is claimed in the Pentateuch and the rest of the Old Testament. Some of the more extreme critics, known as “biblical minimalists,” even deny the historicity of Abraham and the patriarchs, the Israelite sojourn in Egypt, the Exodus, and Joshua’s conquest of the Promised Land. They further question whether David and Solomon ever existed, at least as the powerful sovereigns described in the Old Testament.

Archaeological excavations across the past 150 years, however, have yielded more than enough results to demonstrate that such revisionism is vastly overdone and sensationalistic. The product of such shoddy methodology, in fact, relies too heavily on arguments from silence or absence. Again and again, what has been found in the ground has meshed remarkably well with what is claimed in the Old Testament, and truth is not served when radical revisionist critics ignore or misinterpret irrefutable evidence. They claim that they currently stand at the forefront of biblical research, but quite the opposite is the case, and many, if not most, leading archaeologists and biblical scholars reject their extreme conclusions. The spade remains the Bible’s best friend.

Keep up your wild swinging. You would look good in a ring. Yes, you will tire yourself out, but it would be entertaining. LOL.


I suppose Hezekiah, Sargon, Jehu, and the whole list of them were fiction too.


Ha.... Ha.... Ha.... Sounds more like a cry, than a laugh.
Do I need to repeat myself...

Uh....

No.
If you are the guy that believes your house is the territory 100 yards to the wall surrounding it, and its boundary, then I don't envy you. Not one bit, LOL.


View attachment 59994
Looks like ruins to me. Maybe I am blind.
Oh wait! there is construction going on. That must be where the people are living.
When you see a city, then we can talk.... or should i say if.


Live where? Where did he live?
The man is dead. His life snuffed out, before he could complete his plans.
No. The prophecy came true. No one is living there.
(Isaiah 13:19, 20) 19 And Babylon, the most glorious of kingdoms, The beauty and the pride of the Chaldeans, Will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. 20 She will never be inhabited, Nor will she be a place to reside in throughout all generations. No Arab will pitch his tent there, And no shepherds will rest their flocks there.

Sounds true to me.
View attachment 59995
Looks that way too.


Buildings? LOL. The buildings are living there. Oh right.


Already trashed.

How would any claim coming true many years later, be evidence for a deity?

 

[Sheldon]

↑
I noticed you sidestepped the issues I’ve raised.

Sheldon
On the contrary, I pointed out that your claims were irrational and why, it is you who has sidestepped the fact that your claims were irrational.

Yet, from the frequency of these experiences, it can easily be deduced that there have been millions of such incidents throughout mankind’s history!

So your response to my explaining why your claim is irrational, is an argumentum ad populum fallacy? Irony overload...

I provided a website…. a Wikipedia article, no less…. that gave details concerning just one entity (Lincoln’s ghost) verified by several trustworthy witnesses.

You know that Wikipedia articles can be edited by any member of the public right? So firstly whilst it can be a good reference tool, one should be wary of using it as your sole source, for obvious reasons. Secondly what you are citing is unevidenced second-hand hearsay, nothing more.

You sir choose to ignore the ubiquitous nature of such evidences.

They're subjective claims, not objective evidence.

They are found throughout every culture worldwide.

that is another bare appeal to numbers, an argumentum ad populum fallacy, look it up, Wikipedia will have a through explanation of the logical fallacy, as will other sites.

I’ll grant you, there are many fraudulent accounts, with greed as the motive. But not every single one!

Then cite some objective evidence that supports the ones you claim are real?

To support my pov, I just need one to be genuine…
To support yours, you need them all to be faked!

Nope, that is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, it is a known logical fallacy in informal logic. I need nothing, since you are making the claim, the burden of proof is yours along, and I will disbelieve your claims, as I do all claims, until they are supported by sufficient objective evidence.

Just the posters on RF alone, who’ve had such experiences, are enough to question your accusation of all of their experiences being “irrational”.

That is another unevidenced claim, and you are misrepresented what I asserted was irrational.

I haven’t found any atheist to effectively address them.
Sheldon
Yes you have, I addressed them, and explained your assertions were irrational, and why. I'm guessing you ignored the others in the same fashion.

No, you didn’t. And they didn’t….don’t.

Well Again you have used more than one logical fallacy in your response, so your bare denials here are pretty ironic. You do know what irrational means don't you? Do you know that something is rational if and only if it adheres to the principles of logic? A basic principle of logic is that nothing that contains a known logical fallacy can be asserted as rational.

 

[Sheldon]

I’m talking about interactions & two-way conversations with these entities.

Great, and can you demonstrate anything beyond bare unevidenced anecdotal claims that this has happened? Something, anything, approaching objective evidence? And hopefully not arguments that invoke known logical fallacies, like the circular reasoning fallacy, argumentum ad populum and argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy you have used so far.

As I will need something beyond bare unevidenced anecdote, and logical fallacies that make such arguments irrational by definition.