Bible Prophecy as Evidence of a bible writers trustworthiness

[Sheldon]

@SkepticThinker, @Sheldon,
Yes I did interject myself and was interested in who you thought Isaiah 53 was talking about and who could possibly prophesy 700 years in advance?
I will assume neither want to answer those 2 questions.

Sigh, you made a claim, then when asked to evidence it cited a biblical passage, so I keep asking what objective evidence can you demonstrate that someone made an unequivocal prediction, and what objective evidence can you demonstrate it came true exactly as predicted, and finally what objective evidence can you demonstrate this represents the intervention of divine agency?

I'm not sure how many times I need to explain that I have no interest in examine the claim, only in what objective evidence you can demonstrate for it. Theists are forever claiming they have evidence, and citing biblical prophesy, well this is your moment to demonstrate that, and all you keep doing is citing a biblical passage you can't be bothered to even quote, and asking me for an alternative explanation to your belief. That is not evidence and it is irrational, as it is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Well we don't actually know anything was prophesied at all, just because the bible contains a claim, and then later claims it happened is hardly compelling evidence, and even were that not the case, how would this evidence a deity? No one seems to have an answer.

Well, yeah, those too. Good points.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Sigh, you made a claim, then when asked to evidence it cited a biblical passage, so I keep asking what objective evidence can you demonstrate that someone made an unequivocal prediction, and what objective evidence can you demonstrate it came true exactly as predicted, and finally what objective evidence can you demonstrate this represents the intervention of divine agency?

I'm not sure how many times I need to explain that I have no interest in examine the claim, only in what objective evidence you can demonstrate for it. Theists are forever claiming they have evidence, and citing biblical prophesy, well this is your moment to demonstrate that, and all you keep doing is citing a biblical passage you can't be bothered to even quote, and asking me for an alternative explanation to your belief. That is not evidence and it is irrational, as it is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

Isaiah 53 is a prophecy, RF provides the text if you click on the highlighted part and then you can read the chapter and tell me who it is that Isaiah is talking about. If you can’t figure out how to do that I can cut and paste the chapter for you. Just your opinion and it isn’t a trick question. This prophecy was given to Isaiah about 700-800 BC.

 

[Sheldon]

Isaiah 53 is a prophecy,

So you keep claiming, but it is an unevidenced claim thus far.

RF provides the text if you click on the highlighted part and then you can read the chapter and tell me who it is that Isaiah is talking about.

Nope, it's your claim, and it's for you to evidence it, repeating your fallacious question isn't going to convince me to do your work for you.

If you can’t figure out how to do that I can cut and paste the chapter for you.

Then paste it into a post, and explain it's relevance to your claim.

Just your opinion and it isn’t a trick question. This prophecy was given to Isaiah about 700-800 BC.

As I have explained, you keep making the claim, and you have to evidence that claim, and why you think a prophesy evidences any deity, as all you offered previously was a circular reasoning fallacy, where you used a begging the question fallacy to assume an attribute for your deity.

1. What was claimed, and what objective evidence supports this.

2. What happened to fulfil this prediction, and again what objective evidence can you demonstrate to support this claim.

3. Lastly assuming you have managed 1 and 2, how does this evidence any deity.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Google the chapter and copy the text you think is relevant, then paste it into a post.

Lol, here you go
“Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him. He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. And they made His grave with the wicked— But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:1-12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Who do you believe this passage is talking about?

Also if you hit Menu you can get the whole Bible right there, pretty nice.

 

[Redemptionsong]

You may call it nonsense if that helps you ignore it, but the three different models of Jesus which I've set out for you are each clearly evidenced by their respective texts.

Each of the Gospels provides an angle on the life of Jesus that is necessary and relevant, and each perspective is prophesied in scripture. Jews knew these prophecies, and there was a messianic expectation in NT times, as the stories of the wise men, of Anna, and Simeon, demonstrate.

If you read the discussions in the Talmud (Tractate Sanhedrin) about the Messiah, you will also be aware that there was considerable confusion associated with the differences between Messiah son of Joseph, and Messiah son of David. What is also interesting is that Isaiah 53 is not applied to the suffering people Israel, but to the individual Messiah. In Sanhedrin 98b a discussion on the name of the Messiah leads to this... 'His name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah, for it is written, Because Menahem ['the Comforter'], that would relieve my soul, is far. The Rabbis said: His name is 'the leper scholar', as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted.' [Isaiah 53:4]

If one believes scripture, God's anointed is the son of David as set out in Luke and Matthew .

Jeremiah 23:5.6 'Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.'

Jeremiah 33:15. 'In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. [Notice that the first and second advents are not separated. Jews were given the opportunity of recognising and accepting their Messiah the first time.]

God's chosen will also be a servant (Mark's Gospel), as Zechariah 3:8 tells us. 'for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.'

God's anointed will also have the power of God, as John's Gospel indicates. 'Behold the man whose name is the The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:'

Attempts to undermine the Word of God are as old as the Devil! Thankfully, Berean diligence brings reward. [Acts 17:11]

 

[Redemptionsong]

That is a no true Scotsman fallacy if ever I saw one. Jews have suffered persecution at the hands of European Christians for centuries, and a strong and virulent antisemitism had exited for just as long. Now of course one doesn't assume this about all Christians, but trying to pretend the Christians who did this were not really Christians is irrational, since it involves that fallacy.

The established church has been over centuries been complicit in religious persecutions as well, and not just directed at Jews obviously.

This is where we start to separate what scripture says about a follower of Jesus Christ, and what religion has done to distort the truth. If you want to know the truth, then read the scriptures!

What makes me angry is the attitude adopted by humanists who actively deny the King of the Jews! What right have humanists to claim the moral high ground? Much of the enmity towards Jews has been from those who saw only the differences, and who used pogroms to acquire money and property. This is something Jesus told his followers to avoid. [Matthew 6:19-21]

When it comes to support for Israel and Jews in the modern era, (outside of Jewry) it is evangelical Christians who appear to give the greatest support.

 

[Sheldon]

Lol, here you go
“Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him. He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. And they made His grave with the wicked— But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:1-12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Who do you believe this passage is talking about?

Also if you hit Menu you can get the whole Bible right there, pretty nice.

I hold no beliefs about this passage. Now can you or can you not demonstrate anything approaching objective evidence for prophesy, or answer my question as to how prophesy represents evidence for any deity?

 

[ElishaElijah]

I hold no beliefs about this passage. Now can you or can you not demonstrate anything approaching objective evidence for prophesy, or answer my question as to how prophesy represents evidence for any deity?

For you not in this forum, unfortunately you don’t know Scripture and History, probably better for you to take some classes then we can talk. You would have to at least know the basics

 

[Sheldon]

This is where we start to separate what scripture says about a follower of Jesus Christ, and what religion has done to distort the truth. If you want to know the truth, then read the scriptures!

You are missing the point, it was a no true Scotsman fallacy. What one Christian claims about another based on subjective reading of the bible doesn't change that.

What makes me angry is the attitude adopted by humanists who actively deny the King of the Jews!

Then perhaps a public debate forum open to secular humanists and atheists is a poor choice of destination, unless anger is an emotion you are actively seeking?

What right have humanists to claim the moral high ground?

What humanists, what moral high ground, you will have to give some clue what you're referring to?

Much of the enmity towards Jews has been from those who saw only the differences, and who used pogroms to acquire money and property. This is something Jesus told his followers to avoid. [Matthew 6:19-21]

You seem to be arguing about the meaning of scriptures with an atheist. Christians and established Christian churches, have been involved in centuries of antisemitism, this is simple fact.

When it comes to support for Israel and Jews in the modern era, (outside of Jewry) it is evangelical Christians who appear to give the greatest support.

Well this is of course another bare claim, but assuming it is true, it does not refute the fact that European Christianity involved virulent antisemitism for centuries. No one is suggesting this was limited to Christianity of course.

 

[Sheldon]

For you not in this forum, unfortunately you don’t know Scripture and History, probably better for you to take some classes then we can talk. You would have to at least know the basics

You have no idea what I do and do not know. Not that it would matter, as you made a specific claim, and have offered nothing but evasion when asked to evidence it. The inference is inescapable, you can't demonstrate anything beyond your bare claim for prophesy, and you can't even explain how you think prophesy remotely evidences a deity, beyond your argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

You don't need to be an "expert" on Harry Potter in order to disbelieve in wizardry.

 

[ElishaElijah]

You have no idea what I do and do not know. Not that it would matter, as you made a specific claim, and have offered nothing but evasion when asked to evidence it. The inference is inescapable, you can't demonstrate anything beyond your bare claim for prophesy, and you can't even explain how you think prophesy remotely evidences a deity, beyond your argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

You don't need to be an "expert" on Harry Potter in order to disbelieve in wizardry.

When talking Bible Prophecy you would have to have a basic understanding of Scripture and you already said you hold no beliefs on the passage of Isaiah 53 which is basic. Taking you at your word

 

[ElishaElijah]

I hold no beliefs about this passage.

Ok this passage Isaiah 53 is a prophesy of Jesus Christ dying for the sin of the world, which was prophesied about 700 years before it happened.
Acts 8 the Ethiopian eunuch also believed, was baptized and left with great joy by Philip telling him what this passage of Scripture meant.

“Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert. So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.” So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. The place in the Scripture which he read was this: “He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He opened not His mouth. In His humiliation His justice was taken away, And who will declare His generation? For His life is taken from the earth.” So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus. And passing through, he preached in all the cities till he came to Caesarea.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:26-40‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Now you know and cannot say anymore that you don’t have any beliefs on this.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hello

In Islam, we have soooo many prophecies minor and major to happen and are happening before the Day of Judgement. Would you like to hear some?

Happy Birthday!

I would love to hear some.

 

[blü 2]

Each of the Gospels provides an angle on the life of Jesus that is necessary and relevant

Which is correct?

Did Jesus pre-exist in heaven with God, create the material universe (in the role of the gnostic demiurge), and come to earth (by inference born of Jewish parents descended from David) to mediate between God and man? Paul and the author of John say so.

Was Jesus instead an ordinary Jew born of ordinary Jewish parents not descended from David, who following his baptism, was adopted by God as [his] son on the model of Psalm 2:7 (affirmed Acts 13:33)? The author of Mark says so.

Was Jesus the genetic son of God, through divine insemination of a virgin? The authors of Matthew and of Luke say so (though in their case Jesus has God's Y-chromosome and thus is only a descendant of David if God is).

Or does Jesus in fact exist in the NT in various versions?

 

[MyM]

Happy Birthday!

I would love to hear some.

Thank you

ok I will just give some titles and if you want to know a little about them, I can explain in brief which one you would like to hear or give a hadith


Some minor signs before the day of judgement
1. the advent of the prophethood of Mohammad pbuh and his death
2. the conquest and reopen of bait-l-maqdis
3. a plague
4. Increase in wealth
5. fitna and afflictions
6. assassination of kaliph 'Uthman and disunity of the nation
7. the battle of al Jamal
8. the battle of siffin
9. the appearance of al khawarij
10. the appearance of liars who claim to be the apostle of Allah
11. to attribute fake ahadith to the prophet pbuh
12. widespread of peace and tranquility
13. the fire that emits from the earth of the hijaz
14. appearance of setting
15. fighting with the turks
16. appearance of tyrants and their oppressive sheriffs
17. excessive killing and bloodshed
18. disappearance of honesty and squander of trustworthiness
19. conventional faith and imitation of non-islamic customs
20. appearance of women who are donned-naked
21. the slave-girl who gives birth to her mistress or master
22. bare-footed, destitute shepherds of goats vying with one another in the construction of magnificent buildings
23. greeting salam is limited to known only
24. spread of business/trading
25. spread of covetousness
26. spread of obscenity
27. sever of kinship bonds
28. false testimony and forged witness
29. financial income from doubtful sources
30. means of sustenance are usurious
31. consider illegal sexual intercourse as lawful
32. consider the wearing of silk as lawful
33. consider the drinking of intoxicants as lawful
34. vie for ornamentation of mosques
35. religious knowledge would shrink
36. the time would draw so close to the last hour
37. a man would wish to be in the grave of his brother
38. madinah expels all bad persons
39. the EUPHRATES uncovers a treasure of gold--- (it's happening now..is amazing)
40. the land of arabia becomes meadows and rivers
41. reality of vision(dreams) of the believers
42. muslims fight against the jews and they kill jews
43. fight, plunder and little black trails
44. inanimate and inorganic bodies will talk to humans
45. fleeing with his religion form civil strife to the tops of the mountains
46. reject the prophet's sunnah
47. time will come when muslims become idolworshippers and revert to polytheism
48. appearance of polytheism in muslim community
49. a man of qahtan tribe appears
50. nations summoning one another to attack muslims
51. international embargo of financial and food , 52. aids against iraq and its allies, 53. superiority of romans and their massive population, 54. conquest of constantinope and rome, 55. appears of turmoil from the east, 56. extensive use of musical instruments, 57. old man attempting to become a youth, 58. large number of earth quakes on an extensive scale, 59. demise of righteous believers, 60. surplus of female and shortage of male in number, 61. famine despite heavy rainfall as nothing would grow,

Some Major signs before day of judgement
1. coming forth of al-mahdi, 2. appearance of the anti-christ, 3. the descent of Jesus Christ, 4. send a pleasant wind to take the life of every muslim, 6 Gog and Magog, 5. occultations in three places, 6. demolishing the ka'ba by an abyssinian having two small shanks, 7. the smoke, 8. the rising of the sun from the west, 9. the coming out of the beast from the earth and speak unto people, 10. disappearance of the holy quran, revocation of islam and deviation of people to the idol-worship, 11. a fire burns forth and emits driving people to their place of assembly.

Brief description of the day of resurrection
the blowing of the trumpet on the day of resurrection, characteristics of the earth on the day of resurrection, the first from whom the earth will be cleft open on the day of resurrection, a brief description of the people on the day of judgement,

 

[MyM]

Ok this passage Isaiah 53 is a prophesy of Jesus Christ dying for the sin of the world, which was prophesied about 700 years before it happened.
Acts 8 the Ethiopian eunuch also believed, was baptized and left with great joy by Philip telling him what this passage of Scripture meant.

“Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert. So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.” So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. The place in the Scripture which he read was this: “He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He opened not His mouth. In His humiliation His justice was taken away, And who will declare His generation? For His life is taken from the earth.” So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus. And passing through, he preached in all the cities till he came to Caesarea.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:26-40‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Now you know and cannot say anymore that you don’t have any beliefs on this.

Hello

As for the "prophecy of isaiah 53....just will give my view

Ok according to what people believe. The Bible, first of all is known to have many errors and contradictions. In Islam, we believe all prophets of Allah taught montheism.
No prophecy in the OT says that a messiah would die for their sins. This would be heresy to the Jews. There is no prophecy in the OT that says to worship a messiah. There is no prophecy about worshipping a man. In Jeremiah 8:8 it says that men have tampered with the scrolls. The Jews have about 16 messianic prophecies in the entire OT. The Christians have come in and told the Jews this. If you read the chapter, Jesus doesn't even fit the prophecy. It's sayin he will be despised by all men. It says wounded not killed. But let us go with killed for your arguments sake. This is not what this verse is saying. It is saying that they made a mistake so he is paying for it. They plotted or accused against him. This is exactly what happened. Verse 7 then states that he opened not his mouth. Wrong- Jesus spoke during his trial with both Pontius Pilot and the Jews. Verse 9 then says that he made his grave with the wicked and rich. Jesus did not make his grave, was buried alone. Yes I know he was meant to be buried like a criminal because he was considered one. But verse 9 says he was to be buried with both. Jesus was buried alone. It then goes on to say that God was please by bruising Jesus and that Jesus's seed would prolong the days in verses 10-11. Jesus never had any seed. Verse 12 (which is where your case is strongest) states that his soul shall be poured out unto death. However in the Hebrew and Aramaic texts they say the word death is not present.

I can continue but it's this is enough to make one think.

 

[Sheldon]

When talking Bible Prophecy you would have to have a basic understanding of Scripture and you already said you hold no beliefs on the passage of Isaiah 53 which is basic. Taking you at your word

That's a pretty obvious no true Scotsman fallacy, by implying some sort of esoteric facts exist in the bible. Yet you have failed to quote one word to support your claims. The bible is in English, and it is my first language, so this desperate rationalisation is pretty transparent.

Perhaps more tellingly, despite being asked many times, you have not even tried to explain why you think a fulfilled prophesy would represent evidence for any deity?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Hello

As for the "prophecy of isaiah 53....just will give my view

Ok according to what people believe. The Bible, first of all is known to have many errors and contradictions. In Islam, we believe all prophets of Allah taught montheism.
No prophecy in the OT says that a messiah would die for their sins. This would be heresy to the Jews. There is no prophecy in the OT that says to worship a messiah. There is no prophecy about worshipping a man. In Jeremiah 8:8 it says that men have tampered with the scrolls. The Jews have about 16 messianic prophecies in the entire OT. The Christians have come in and told the Jews this. If you read the chapter, Jesus doesn't even fit the prophecy. It's sayin he will be despised by all men. It says wounded not killed. But let us go with killed for your arguments sake. This is not what this verse is saying. It is saying that they made a mistake so he is paying for it. They plotted or accused against him. This is exactly what happened. Verse 7 then states that he opened not his mouth. Wrong- Jesus spoke during his trial with both Pontius Pilot and the Jews. Verse 9 then says that he made his grave with the wicked and rich. Jesus did not make his grave, was buried alone. Yes I know he was meant to be buried like a criminal because he was considered one. But verse 9 says he was to be buried with both. Jesus was buried alone. It then goes on to say that God was please by bruising Jesus and that Jesus's seed would prolong the days in verses 10-11. Jesus never had any seed. Verse 12 (which is where your case is strongest) states that his soul shall be poured out unto death. However in the Hebrew and Aramaic texts they say the word death is not present.

I can continue but it's this is enough to make one think.

Isaiah 53 does say God would lay on Him the iniquity of us all. Acts 8 the gospel was preached using that Scripture and he believed and was baptized.
“And those who had laid hold of Jesus led Him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled. But Peter followed Him at a distance to the high priest’s courtyard. And he went in and sat with the servants to see the end. Now the chief priests, the elders, and all the council sought false testimony against Jesus to put Him to death, but found none. Even though many false witnesses came forward, they found none. But at last two false witnesses came forward and said, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.’ ” And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! What do you think?” They answered and said, “He is deserving of death.” Then they spat in His face and beat Him; and others struck Him with the palms of their hands, saying, “Prophesy to us, Christ! Who is the one who struck You?””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:57-68‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
Jesus was silent then opened his mouth as you can see. When He did open His mouth He was accused of blasphemy. If Jesus was not Immanuel, God with us and just a man, He would have been a false prophet and blasphemer.
You have to pick one or the other.The way I see it is Jesus is worshipped in Heaven and on Earth, He didn’t stop anyone but received their worship. Muslims have quite a dilemma, don’t see how you can say Jesus was a man and consider him a prophet when He said otherwise and also received worship. Either He is God in the flesh or a false prophet and blasphemer.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hello. Sorry I’m late responding…
I’m not aware that you and I have engaged in any past discussions, so I welcome an amicable one.
I’m not given to writing long posts, so I’ll be brief.

So religious motives must be pure, and atheist motives must be depraved.

Have I made such a sweeping generalization as you’ve implied? I don’t think so… I certainly didn’t mean to.

For the vast majority of human culture & history, religion has been notorious! Rife with wicked motives!



And I think I stated “some” atheists, not all.

In fact, I call “some” atheists my friends, more than just acquaintances.

However, I’m sure there are some aspects of the Bible that many people, religious or otherwise, have failed to consider….

Here is one:
Why would the Bible, which actually encourages people who read it to love Jehovah God (Matthew 22:37-38), but then reveal actions He took that seem, as some here have said, “genocidal and sadistic”?
Why be so candid?

If I — or indeed anyone here — wanted others to love me, I’d sure leave out the unflattering parts!
But Jehovah didn’t.

Such candid revelations would incline one reasoning on the matter to conclude that it’s ancient words are truthful & historical.

I will address the issues of prediction & event you raised, later.

Have a great evening, Sheldon.