Bible Prophecy as Evidence of a bible writers trustworthiness

[Hockeycowboy]

Christian belief. The one I had.

Ciao

- viole

When I became a teenager, I stopped considering what is called ‘mainstream christian belief’ accurately reflected what Jesus taught.

Jesus’ way of life was loving & frugal; Christendom has been neither of those things: supporting wars and amassing wealth has been their record.

That record, alone, should bring into question their teachings.

But it makes them look bad, not Jesus. Matthew 7:21-23

Thanks for your reply.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thank you

ok I will just give some titles and if you want to know a little about them, I can explain in brief which one you would like to hear or give a hadith


Some minor signs before the day of judgement
1. the advent of the prophethood of Mohammad pbuh and his death
2. the conquest and reopen of bait-l-maqdis
3. a plague
4. Increase in wealth
5. fitna and afflictions
6. assassination of kaliph 'Uthman and disunity of the nation
7. the battle of al Jamal
8. the battle of siffin
9. the appearance of al khawarij
10. the appearance of liars who claim to be the apostle of Allah
11. to attribute fake ahadith to the prophet pbuh
12. widespread of peace and tranquility
13. the fire that emits from the earth of the hijaz
14. appearance of setting
15. fighting with the turks
16. appearance of tyrants and their oppressive sheriffs
17. excessive killing and bloodshed
18. disappearance of honesty and squander of trustworthiness
19. conventional faith and imitation of non-islamic customs
20. appearance of women who are donned-naked
21. the slave-girl who gives birth to her mistress or master
22. bare-footed, destitute shepherds of goats vying with one another in the construction of magnificent buildings
23. greeting salam is limited to known only
24. spread of business/trading
25. spread of covetousness
26. spread of obscenity
27. sever of kinship bonds
28. false testimony and forged witness
29. financial income from doubtful sources
30. means of sustenance are usurious
31. consider illegal sexual intercourse as lawful
32. consider the wearing of silk as lawful
33. consider the drinking of intoxicants as lawful
34. vie for ornamentation of mosques
35. religious knowledge would shrink
36. the time would draw so close to the last hour
37. a man would wish to be in the grave of his brother
38. madinah expels all bad persons
39. the EUPHRATES uncovers a treasure of gold--- (it's happening now..is amazing)
40. the land of arabia becomes meadows and rivers
41. reality of vision(dreams) of the believers
42. muslims fight against the jews and they kill jews
43. fight, plunder and little black trails
44. inanimate and inorganic bodies will talk to humans
45. fleeing with his religion form civil strife to the tops of the mountains
46. reject the prophet's sunnah
47. time will come when muslims become idolworshippers and revert to polytheism
48. appearance of polytheism in muslim community
49. a man of qahtan tribe appears
50. nations summoning one another to attack muslims
51. international embargo of financial and food , 52. aids against iraq and its allies, 53. superiority of romans and their massive population, 54. conquest of constantinope and rome, 55. appears of turmoil from the east, 56. extensive use of musical instruments, 57. old man attempting to become a youth, 58. large number of earth quakes on an extensive scale, 59. demise of righteous believers, 60. surplus of female and shortage of male in number, 61. famine despite heavy rainfall as nothing would grow,

Some Major signs before day of judgement
1. coming forth of al-mahdi, 2. appearance of the anti-christ, 3. the descent of Jesus Christ, 4. send a pleasant wind to take the life of every muslim, 6 Gog and Magog, 5. occultations in three places, 6. demolishing the ka'ba by an abyssinian having two small shanks, 7. the smoke, 8. the rising of the sun from the west, 9. the coming out of the beast from the earth and speak unto people, 10. disappearance of the holy quran, revocation of islam and deviation of people to the idol-worship, 11. a fire burns forth and emits driving people to their place of assembly.

Brief description of the day of resurrection
the blowing of the trumpet on the day of resurrection, characteristics of the earth on the day of resurrection, the first from whom the earth will be cleft open on the day of resurrection, a brief description of the people on the day of judgement,

Thank you very much. I appreciate all your effort.

 

[Redemptionsong]

You are missing the point, it was a no true Scotsman fallacy. What one Christian claims about another based on subjective reading of the bible doesn't change that.

The challenge when reading the scriptures, or hearing a preacher, is determining whether the message is true.

True prophecy, the forthtelling of God's word, contains foretelling of events and the revealing of truths otherwise hidden from human knowledge. Moses, for example, was not present at the beginning of creation, or at the dawn of human existence, yet his prophecies (contained in the Torah) cover a period of time before such knowledge was available.

If someone is to dismiss the Bible as a false or 'dud' prophecy, it is necessary to demonstrate contradiction, error and inconsistency in the message. It is also necessary to demonstrate that for 1500 years a plot was hatched, by forty or more writers, to deceive humanity.

There is yet further evidence of God's hand in the Bible when it comes to belief in Jesus as Lord. The promise that Jesus made to his followers was that they would receive the Holy Spirit. Unlike any personal and solely subjective experience that cannot be verified, this first happened to 120 disciples at one time (Pentecost), and has been experienced by believers across the globe ever since. There is an objectivity to the Holy Spirit that elevates it above subjective understanding.

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit, with accompanying fruit and power, is evidence that God's word can be trusted.

As Paul asked, 'Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?'

 

[SkepticThinker]

Lol, here you go
“Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him. He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. And they made His grave with the wicked— But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:1-12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Who do you believe this passage is talking about?

Also if you hit Menu you can get the whole Bible right there, pretty nice.

I've spoken with Jews who seem to think this passage is about Israel.
And then I've spoken with some Christians who think it's talking about Jesus.

To me, it's awfully vague and could describe a great number of people or things, especially so long after the fact when it's so much easier to just imagine it's anybody or anything you want it to be.
Like with Nostradamus "prophecies."

So which is it, if any, and how can we demonstrate it?

 

[ElishaElijah]

I've spoken with Jews who seem to think this passage is about Israel.
And then I've spoken with some Christians who think it's talking about Jesus.

To me, it's awfully vague and could describe a great number of people or things, especially so long after the fact when it's so much easier to just imagine it's anybody or anything you want it to be.
Like with Nostradamus "prophecies."

So which is it, if any, and how can we demonstrate it?

I don’t see Isaiah 53 as vague, I don’t see any nation or person other than Jesus Christ who fulfilled this prophecy. This is just one of many prophecies.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

To prove to the men of Isreal that God had sent him, he was given 3 miracles to perform. Ex 4:1-9.

Did God send the Egyptian priests who did the same tricks?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

But if that were so, these ancient Biblical books would not have been held in such respect and esteem by their ancient contemporaries, who would’ve known the truth, and future generations as they have... these books would have been severely censured as fraudulent.

Kings Cross Station added a 9 3/4 gag because a certain book franchise is popular.

 

[ppp]

But if that were so, these ancient Biblical books would not have been held in such respect and esteem by their ancient contemporaries, who would’ve known the truth, and future generations as they have... these books would have been severely censured as fraudulent.

Are you seriously trying to claim that respect and esteem for contemporaneous religious writings indicates that the religious writing is true? You might want to think that one through.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Are you seriously trying to claim that respect and esteem for contemporaneous religious writings indicates that the religious writing is true?

As an indication,why not?

Contemporaries would be more aware of the facts, since historical povs over unpopular topics tend to be altered as time progresses.

Contemporaries & their writings are important.

Only 80 to 90 years ago, the Holocaust occurred. But there are some already, who deny it even happened.

 

[Audie]

I think it is almost impossible to convince atheist by Biblical prophesies and Biblical ideals.

Because if atheist does not believe in GOD, surely he/she would not believe the Biblical Scriptures.

But archeological evidence that support Biblical Scriptures and prophesies are very convincing, particularly discovered by secular archeologists.

Biblical archeology also very important and beneficial and for those who believe in GOD.

Biblical archeology creates better understanding of life in the past and increases Biblical knowledge.

This is my own experience.

I dont start as a believer in anything. I need reasons.
I like questions.

If evidence of prophecy were 1% of what there is for evolution
and deep time, I would accept it.

Note who it is that is 100% immune to evidence contrary to their PREDETERMINED views.

Who is incapable of accepting such things because they
believe they already know Truth as per their chosen reading of a book?

See " creationist".

True, I dont believe in God. But to auto- asdume that no atheist is
capable of accepting evidence is pretty rotten. Assuming total
intellectual dishonesty? Not nice.

Luckily not all Christians are as I described. Lots of them understand legitimate
evidence, and accept such as evolution.

Archeology certainly shows SOME bible history
has a real basis. It iscno help to exodus, sodom, tower of babel, and some
other things. It disproves "flood " and the rest of genesus.

Very beneficial to Believers? Depends on the believer.

Archaeology is " very convincing", of what?
Convinces who?

MY own experience is that Believers trip themselves up pretty badly when they get in over their heads, making things up about atheists and talking science that they do
not understand.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Did God send the Egyptian priests who did the same tricks?

So..in Exodus 7, God is working against Himself? That makes no sense.

But the Bible does tell us of an angel who rebelled against God, whom Jesus referred to as the “Ruler of this world.” John 12:31; see Luke 4:5-6

Him being the source of power behind those Egyptian priests, makes better sense.

it also helps us to reason on why things like magic, astrology, divination and things like these, were so heavily condemned in the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 18:10-12) ….. Jehovah God’s enemy was & still is the source backing these activities.

 

[ppp]

As an indication,why not?

Well, there were a lot of respected religious views from a lot of religions that are not yours. Which basically means that the respect and esteem for other religious books that contradict your books are wrong are "indicated" to be true.

By the way, those same people also, esteemed of books that claimed that there were giant ants mining gold in Turkey and that eating a lizard soaked in urine is good for the male libido. For females, they should put a bat soaked with blood on top of their heads.

And for the modern day... Elvis sightings, alien abductions, Nigerian Prince

 

[Hockeycowboy]

…the respect and esteem for other religious books that contradict your books are wrong are "indicated" to be true.

Contradict historical events, as seen by contemporaries? (Because that’s the issue being discussed.)

Which books? And what contradictions between these books exist, do you think?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don’t see Isaiah 53 as vague, I don’t see any nation or person other than Jesus Christ who fulfilled this prophecy. This is just one of many prophecies.

As pointed out, others disagree with you.

I see it as extremely vague. A good prophecy would get names and dates exactly right and would be much more specific. Otherwise, you can pretty much cram anything you want into them, as has been done. Good prophecies really shouldn't take hundreds or thousands of years to "come true" either.

How can we tell who is right, if anyone?

 

[ElishaElijah]

As pointed out, others disagree with you.

I see it as extremely vague. A good prophecy would get names and dates exactly right and would be much more specific. Otherwise, you can pretty much cram anything you want into them, as has been done. Good prophecies really shouldn't take hundreds or thousands of years to "come true" either.

How can we tell who is right, if anyone?

The Scriptures point to Jesus Christ, His coming, dying for the sins of the world, resurrection, His return and judgement at the end of the age. Their are 2 camps, believers and unbelievers.
The others disagree with me, well that’s obvious and a moot point. Has nothing to do with Truth or what a Scripture means.
In this passage, Jesus opens the Scriptures and points out how they speak of Him, no someone else.
“Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’ ” Now behold, two of them were traveling that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was seven miles from Jerusalem. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. So it was, while they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them. But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him. And He said to them, “What kind of conversation is this that you have with one another as you walk and are sad?” Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, “Are You the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have You not known the things which happened there in these days?” And He said to them, “What things?” So they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us. When they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said He was alive. And certain of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said; but Him they did not see.” Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. Then they drew near to the village where they were going, and He indicated that He would have gone farther. But they constrained Him, saying, “Abide with us, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent.” And He went in to stay with them. Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight. And they said to one another, “Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?” So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together, saying, “The Lord is risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!” And they told about the things that had happened on the road, and how He was known to them in the breaking of bread.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:1-7, 13-35‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Jesus being crucified, buried in a tomb and rising from the dead wasn’t a self fulfilling prophesy, Him being born in Bethlehem of a virgin etc. All foretold by God. Look how he went through the Scriptures from Moses and all the Prophets concerning Himself. What’s the vague part, I don’t see it?

 

[SkepticThinker]

The Scriptures point to Jesus Christ, His coming, dying for the sins of the world, resurrection, His return and judgement at the end of the age. Their are 2 camps, believers and unbelievers.
The others disagree with me, well that’s obvious and a moot point. Has nothing to do with Truth or what a Scripture means.
In this passage, Jesus opens the Scriptures and points out how they speak of Him, no someone else.
“Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’ ” Now behold, two of them were traveling that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was seven miles from Jerusalem. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. So it was, while they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them. But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him. And He said to them, “What kind of conversation is this that you have with one another as you walk and are sad?” Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, “Are You the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have You not known the things which happened there in these days?” And He said to them, “What things?” So they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us. When they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said He was alive. And certain of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said; but Him they did not see.” Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. Then they drew near to the village where they were going, and He indicated that He would have gone farther. But they constrained Him, saying, “Abide with us, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent.” And He went in to stay with them. Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight. And they said to one another, “Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?” So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together, saying, “The Lord is risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!” And they told about the things that had happened on the road, and how He was known to them in the breaking of bread.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:1-7, 13-35‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Jesus being crucified, buried in a tomb and rising from the dead wasn’t a self fulfilling prophesy, Him being born in Bethlehem of a virgin etc. All foretold by God. Look how he went through the Scriptures from Moses and all the Prophets concerning Himself. What’s the vague part, I don’t see it?

Sorry, but how does this address what I said in my post?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Sorry, but how does this address what I said in my post?

You can’t see? You say it’s vague, not everyone agrees, could be anyone, not specific. Well He was alive about 2000 years ago and we can read the testimony of witnesses, He was very specific, still the disciples didn’t understand at first.
I gave you an example how from Moses and Prophets spoke of Jesus. You say Isaiah 53 can be anyone, well prove your comment.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You can’t see? You say it’s vague, not everyone agrees, could be anyone, not specific. Well He was alive about 2000 years ago and we can read the testimony of witnesses, He was very specific, still the disciples didn’t understand at first.
I gave you an example how from Moses and Prophets spoke of Jesus. You say Isaiah 53 can be anyone, well prove your comment.

What witness testimony?

I said the prophecy was vague and gave reasons why I thought it was vague. Instead of addressing my comments, you gave me verses from some other part of the Bible.

Some Jews thing that your prophecy is talking about the nation of Israel, as I pointed out before. So maybe they're right. Or maybe nobody is right.
That's the thing with these vague "prophecies," where you can cram almost anything into them loooooong after they were written because so much damn time has passed. And since the prophecy doesn't give dates or actual names or anything, that makes it that much easier to plug any old thing you want into them. Never mind that the people writing the supposed fulfillment of said "prophecies" had access to the documents where said "prophecies" were written.
Oh and that's the other point I made that you didn't address. What kind of amazing prophecy takes hundreds and hundreds of years to come to fruition?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Oh and that's the other point I made that you didn't address. What kind of amazing prophecy takes hundreds and hundreds of years to come to fruition?

The coming of Jesus, dying for the sin of the world, His Return, The End of the Age, The New Heaven and Earth. All that has taken around 6 thousand years so far and counting. It is amazing, God has progressively revealed these things to His people, what’s more amazing is that they are hidden from a lot of people yet obvious to believers.

 

[Bree]

Is that a question because you cannot date your own conception? So, when you cant date anything you are proposing you will ask the other person? Is not that a Tu Quoque? If you cannot date your texts and their so called prophecies, just say that you cannot date them. Hope you understand.

Anyway just to give you an answer as a respect, the Qur'an is dated with carbon 14 dating to the early 7th century. Its just scientific dating.

Please try not to do Tu Quoque and provide some kind of dating to your text. If you cannot, just say you cannot.

Peace.

Unfortunately I did do that, but you rejected the method. So naturally Im interested in what method is acceptable to you because you obviously believe Mohammad existed in the 7th century...but why?