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Bible translators unbiased???

Do you believe the bible transcribers (translators), those written about in the bible before the book of Genesis (in the preface), are completely free of theological doctrinal bias when translating the scriptures into the English language?? i.e., Are they biased when choosing the meaning of a word from a lexicon when translating to the English??

In the love of Christ, sincerely, The Real Milk Man.

God loves you, and I do too!

Whatever is the overflow of the heart, is what comes out of the mouth.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I think if a person agrees with the particular translation, they'll call it "unbiased" and "solid" every time. If they don't agree with it, they'll say it's "biased" or "inaccurate" :D
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
I don't think any translator is entirely free of bias. That said I do think the KJV translators were very dedicated to correct translation.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't think any translator is entirely free of bias. That said I do think the KJV translators were very dedicated to correct translation.
The problem, however, is that much of the time the biases that affect translations are related to the process itself. That is, granting for a moment that some translator or committee behind some translation is free of doctrinal or similar religious biases, what is the "correct" way to translate? Even for more formal situations (e.g., writing a report, study, paper, thesis, etc.) I tend to use footnotes to indicate alternate senses of words or phrases, not to mention commentary. In less formal situations, I tend to to translate a single word with multiple words/phrases rather than actually settle on some "best" approximation. Translators do not have that option. They have to decide on a single way to best render any given line into the target language. The more differences there are between the languages, the more difficult this is. And the differences are not just a matter of grammar, but also of culture. For example, a text written in modern English is more readily translated into Italian than an ancient Latin text, even though grammatically Italian and Latin have more in common than English and Italian.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
The problem, however, is that much of the time the biases that affect translations are related to the process itself. That is, granting for a moment that some translator or committee behind some translation is free of doctrinal or similar religious biases, what is the "correct" way to translate? Even for more formal situations (e.g., writing a report, study, paper, thesis, etc.) I tend to use footnotes to indicate alternate senses of words or phrases, not to mention commentary. In less formal situations, I tend to to translate a single word with multiple words/phrases rather than actually settle on some "best" approximation. Translators do not have that option. They have to decide on a single way to best render any given line into the target language. The more differences there are between the languages, the more difficult this is. And the differences are not just a matter of grammar, but also of culture. For example, a text written in modern English is more readily translated into Italian than an ancient Latin text, even though grammatically Italian and Latin have more in common than English and Italian.

I don't disagree. but it isn't always like a word has contradictory meaning. Often it can be rendered by any number of synonymous words in the other language. Or vice versa one English word is used to render a number of different Greek words of similar meaning.

All I am saying is that I respect the KJV translators faithfulness to the text they were translating. As opposed to the translators of a lot of other bible versions. I see a lot more obvious theological bias in the latter.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't disagree. but it isn't always like a word has contradictory meaning.

This is true. But the problem is not so much contradiction as it is nuance. Or, perhaps even more importantly, that while we tend to think of language as words, strung together by certain grammatical rules, but nonetheless decomposable into atomic elements (the individidual nouns, adjectives, particles, clitics, etc., which make up a phrase, line or sentence), this is too often inaccurate. For example:

it isn't always like a word has contradictory meaning

This is perfectly constructed English. But as soon as we try to translate it into some other language, we notice several issues. For example, what is "it"? If I were teaching English grammar to a class, I might respond that "it" is a pronoun, and that like other pronouns it somehow stands in place of a noun. But a student might point to your sentence and say "what is the noun which "it" stands in place of?"

And then I would either respond with jargon-filled and intricately complex language which, in the end, would make it appear as if I answered but at the same time ensure that no one could possibly understand me (and thus the student, fearing to appear stupid, would drop the issue), or perhaps I would simply banish the student from my classroom.

Why would I do this? Because your use of "it", which again is completely grammatical, does not do what pronouns do. It seems to refer to some sort of state of affairs, such that I might say "it" means "the nature of language" in some sense. Maybe I give it a special name, and call it a "dummy" pronoun or perhaps I say it is part of an "impersonal construction" or some such thing. But again, how do I translate it?

In French, for example, we have two common ways to render such impersonal constructions. I began my post with "This is true", but were we writing in French I'd say "c'est vrai." But why would I say "c'est vrai"? It means "it's true", doesn't it? Why not say "il est vrai?" After all, wouldn't it be crazy to use "ce" when translating "is this true"? On the other hand, what are we to make of "il y..."?

Clearly, French is ridiculous. Let's look at German. There's got to be an easy way to translate this in German. But wait, how would we translate "there's got to be" or even "there is" in German? I call up my German friend, who informs me that the answer is "es gibt". I say thanks, and I am about to hang up when I realize that last week, when I asked how to say "he's giving me something" my friend had said "gibt" then too. Clearly, my friend is simply telling me pretty much every verb can be translated by some form of "gibt" in german, which is obviously not true, so he is lying to me. I tell him that it would have been better if his parents hadn't known one another, or hadn't met, because then he'd never have been born. He responds that that would, in German be "Wenn sich deine Eltern nicht kennen gelernt hätten, dann gäbe es dich nicht", and I hang up the phone wondering what one earth this form of "gibt" or "gives" has to do with "hadn't been".

This is getting me no where, so I call up Dr. Linguist, who lives down the way, and ask how I might answer my student's question. He starts babbling on about meteorological verbs in Indo-European langauges vs. Uralic languages, and the the relevancy of discourse/pragmatics to the construal of modality in Hebrew, and I am now so frustrated I start ranting, yelling that language is meaningless and crazy and nobody knows what they are talking about. I tell Dr. linguist that every word has a meaning, and I just want to know about "it". He responds that in Latin or Greek, "it is for me"-type constructions (mihi est) mean something like "have", and that this is true to some extent still in Russian, and quite common in non-indo-european languages. "It is for me a son"= "I have a son" or "He is my son"? What?

"It" is driving me crazy (although, even though I still don't know what "it" is, I do know "it" can't drive anywhere).



Often it can be rendered by any number of synonymous words in the other language.

Yes. The question is "what's the "right" one"? After all, in Greek or Latin, I can translate "it can be rendered" and not include "it" at all.

Or vice versa one English word is used to render a number of different Greek words of similar meaning.

English has this tendency to incorporate foreign words, or invent novel ones, so fast that dictionaries can't keep up. Aristotle would find it disgusting. In Greek, after all, the same verb which can mean "untie" as in "I am not worthy to untie the straps of his sandles", can also mean "kill" or "destroy". Greek extends the meaning of words far more readily than English, which tends to create lots of words with similar meanings, but none are exactly synonymous, which is a misleading word to begin with (and an example of English stealing from other languages). I can have a cup, a glass, a mug, perhaps even a goblet, from which I can drink or have a drink, or sip (but I can't "have a sip" like I can "have a drink"), or guzzle, or gulp, or which I can drain, empty, and even drink this draught to the last drop.

All I am saying is that I respect the KJV translators faithfulness to the text they were translating.

How does one judge faithfulness? That's my point. Language may be "words, words, words", but a word like "point" can mean "the elements n, located in a Euclidean plane which represent the vector X when drawn from the origin" or it could mean something I do with my finger. And none of these correspond exactly to words in other languages.

As opposed to the translators of a lot of other bible versions. I see a lot more obvious theological bias in the latter.
Such as?
 
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McBell

Unbound
Actually, I'd be interested in seeing a more substantive response.
Fair enough

The Comma Johanneum was in the text they were working from. They didn't put it there.
really?
Which text specifically?

Why should they not translate Pascha as "Easter"?
For consistency of translation.
Why is the word Pascha translated as passover in every place EXCEPT where they changed it to Easter?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I don't think any translator is entirely free of bias. That said I do think the KJV translators were very dedicated to correct translation.

The few times that I compared some verses between the NIV and the KJV, I preferred the KJV. I also noticed a couple of differences in meaning, or at least it could be interpreted as such.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
It should be noted that some metaphysical practitioners and adherents of some alternative religions (notably, Neopaganism) dislike the KJV translation due to word usage that casts what we do in a negative light. By contemporary standards, the KJV is incredibly sloppy in labeling many metaphysical practices. What KJV means by "witchcraft" and what Neopagans mean by "witchcraft" are usually two very different things. Your typical person reading the Bible isn't necessarily going to be aware of this, which creates a situation where a minority use certain Bible passages to justify pretty awful attitudes towards Neopagans and other metaphysical practitioners/religions.

Understand I don't blame the KJV itself for this; the translation was made long before these contemporary practices existed. But it is worth nothing that archaic translations do not keep up with evolution in a language, which is a serious issue because meanings of words do change (sometimes significantly) over time as does grammar and syntax. That introduces a backward sort of bias that fails to account for how contemporary language works and is understood. Footnotes can help, but you reach a point where you've got so many you might as well just do a new translation that updates the words and grammar for contemporary readers and speakers.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I've found passages in the NIV that I thought were difficult to decipher the meaning, however in the KJV the verses made more sense.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
really?
Which text specifically?

from wiki:

The Comma is not in the two oldest pure Vulgate manuscripts, Fuldensis and Amiatinus, although it is referenced in the Prologue of Fuldensis. Overall, it is estimated that over 95% of the thousands of Vulgate MSS. contain the verse. The Vulgate was developed from Vetus Latina manuscripts, updated by Jerome utilizing the Greek fountainhead.


The earliest extant Latin manuscripts (m q l) supporting the Comma are dated from the 5th to 7th century. The Freisinger fragment[n 72] and the Codex Legionensis (7th century), besides the younger Codex Speculum, New Testament quotations extant in an 8th- or 9th-century manuscript.[54]


The Comma does not appear in the older Greek manuscripts. Nestle-Aland is aware of eight Greek manuscripts that contain the comma.[133] The date of the addition is late, probably dating to the time of Erasmus.[134] In one manuscript, back-translated into Greek from the Vulgate, the phrase "and these three are one" is not present.[114]



For consistency of translation.
Why is the word Pascha translated as passover in every place EXCEPT where they changed it to Easter?
Who knows? But I never claimed they were consistent just faithful to the text they were working from. Passover was Easter to them.
 

allright

Active Member
Do you believe the bible transcribers (translators), those written about in the bible before the book of Genesis (in the preface), are completely free of theological doctrinal bias when translating the scriptures into the English language?? i.e., Are they biased when choosing the meaning of a word from a lexicon when translating to the English??

Since different words can have several meanings the translator has to decide what he thinks the original text is saying and than translates the word accordingly.
If hes wrong about what he thinks the verse is saying, the translation is wrong
It may or may not be intentional
 

McBell

Unbound
from wiki:

The Comma is not in the two oldest pure Vulgate manuscripts, Fuldensis and Amiatinus, although it is referenced in the Prologue of Fuldensis. Overall, it is estimated that over 95% of the thousands of Vulgate MSS. contain the verse. The Vulgate was developed from Vetus Latina manuscripts, updated by Jerome utilizing the Greek fountainhead.


The earliest extant Latin manuscripts (m q l) supporting the Comma are dated from the 5th to 7th century. The Freisinger fragment[n 72] and the Codex Legionensis (7th century), besides the younger Codex Speculum, New Testament quotations extant in an 8th- or 9th-century manuscript.[54]


The Comma does not appear in the older Greek manuscripts. Nestle-Aland is aware of eight Greek manuscripts that contain the comma.[133] The date of the addition is late, probably dating to the time of Erasmus.[134] In one manuscript, back-translated into Greek from the Vulgate, the phrase "and these three are one" is not present.[114]
I will look into this and get back with you.


Who knows? But I never claimed they were consistent just faithful to the text they were working from. Passover was Easter to them.
I knows.
It is bias.
 
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