Bibles answer to the problem of suffering

[Pegg]

One of the most important questions that we face is why is there so much suffering. Bart Erhman lost his faith in the bible over this very question because he could not find the answer in the bible.

If God is all loving, why does evil and suffering exist in our world? Bart could not find an answer, but the bible does provide answers to these questions.

The number one reason why suffering abounds is found in the writing of the apostle John and he's answer lies in who really rules this world. Most people assume God is the ruler of the world and therefore everything that happens must be of his making.
But the truth is that the Chrstians did not believe God was the ruler of the earth.
According to the Apostle John at 1 John 5:19 “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”
And of the wicked one, he said that he is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.” (Revelation 12:9)
Satan is hateful, violent and cruel. And this world reflects the influence he has over it.

A second reason why there is so much suffering is that mankind has been imperfect and sinful ever since the rebellion in the garden of Eden. Sinful humans tend to struggle for dominance, and this results in wars, oppression, and suffering. Ecclesiastes 4:1 '...see all the acts of oppression that are being done under the sun, and, look! the tears of those being oppressed...'
Eccl 8:9 '...man has dominated man to his injury

A third reason for suffering is “time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all” (Ecclesiastes 9:11) In a world without our Creator as a protective ruler we have to fend for ourselves and we cannot control natural disasters that may befall us at any time. Our envirnment is way out of balance due to our own activity on earth, and this is causing the changes that bring natural disasters.

A forth reason is the way mankind are governing themselves. We created a monetry system that requires we all have adequate work so that we have money to survive.... but there just isnt enough jobs for everyone, so poverty is the result. With poverty comes crime. With crime comes violence and more suffering.
The bible tells us why we can't govern ourselves properly at Jeremiah 10:23 “I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”
God did not create us with the ability to govern ourselves independently of his rule. We need him for so many things, yet we try to do it all on our own and we simply dont have the capability.


You may not agree with these scriptures, but they all point to one thing... independence from God is a disaster for us. The only way to end the suffering is for mankind to return to the rulership of God, our Creator. When we do that, suffering will be no more.

 

[9Westy9]

1) If God is benevolent then why does he let Satan rule?
2) If we also assume that god is omnipotent and omniscient then why did he allow us to sin in the first place?
3) see 1
4) If God's system is so much better then why don't we live by that system?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Scripture does Not teach God is omnipotent because there are things that God can not do such as :
God can not lie. - Titus 1 v 2

God gifted us by creating us as free moral agents with the ability to use our free will to chose our own thoughts. Otherwise, the Adam and Eve sin scenario would never have taken place. God's judgment of them would have taken place 'before' they sinned not afterwards.

Like A&E we have the choice even now to live by God's 'system of living' by the Golden Rule, and Jesus new commandment of love [at John 13 vs 34,35], and cultivating the fruit of God's spirit as recorded at Galatians [5 vs 22,23] of love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control because against such things there is no law. No law forbidding that fruitage.

If God would have destroyed Satan right away that would have shown God's strength and power.
Just using strength and power could have been viewed as being a bully.
Satan never challenged God's power, but challenged God's righteous rule over humankind.
Satan challenges 'us' that none of us humans would prove faithful and stand up for God's sovereignty as the best way of ruling or governing mankind. [Job 2 vs 4,5 ]
Both Job and Jesus proved Satan the liar that he is, and so can we.

 

[BSM1]

Check Isaiah 45:7 to get a handle on the nature of God. If you accept the verse you have to realize that suffering-non-suferring comes from the same source. We really have very little control over either. We can only define the two and react accordingly. I believe that what we determine is suffering exists so that we can rise above self-pity and be better people.

 

[Storm]

Pegg, not to be rude, but if it's that obvious, why has the PoE been a central problem of Christianity for centuries?

If your answer works for you, great. But it's not ironclad.

 

[Tarheeler]

You may not agree with these scriptures, but they all point to one thing... independence from God is a disaster for us. The only way to end the suffering is for mankind to return to the rulership of God, our Creator. When we do that, suffering will be no more.

I don't agree with your conclusion either.

I'm all for "turning to God", and I agree that if we all lived as commanded we could greatly reduce man-made suffering. But suffering part of life, and it will never completely cease. There will always be death, disease, pain, natural disasters. What we can do is find ways to reduce the pain and compassionately deal with the suffering.

 

[savagewind]

Pegg, not to be rude, but if it's that obvious, why has the PoE been a central problem of Christianity for centuries?

If your answer works for you, great. But it's not ironclad.

What is PoE please?

 

[savagewind]

Satan is hateful, violent and cruel. And this world reflects the influence he has over it.

This can not be a true statement OR 'Jesus' did NOT call Peter Satan. Matthew 16:23
Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men"

You know that everlasting life is possible only by knowing 'Jehovah' and the one sent forth 'Jesus'. But do you not know 'Jesus' would never call his friend "hateful, violent and cruel"? As far as I know I can't even imagine 'Jesus' calling someone who is hateful, violent and cruel hateful, violent and cruel.

 

[Storm]

What is PoE please?

Problem of Evil.

 

[9Westy9]

Scripture does Not teach God is omnipotent because there are things that God can not do such as :
God can not lie. - Titus 1 v 2

God gifted us by creating us as free moral agents with the ability to use our free will to chose our own thoughts. Otherwise, the Adam and Eve sin scenario would never have taken place. God's judgment of them would have taken place 'before' they sinned not afterwards.

So God cares more about us being "free moral agents" than he does our well-being?

 

[savagewind]

Thank you Storm. I'm not a good guesser.

 

[Tarheeler]

So God cares more about us being "free moral agents" than he does our well-being?

I know it isn't directed at me, but I'd anwer yes to that question.

 

[Awoon]

One of the most important questions that we face is why is there so much suffering. Bart Erhman lost his faith in the bible over this very question because he could not find the answer in the bible.

If God is all loving, why does evil and suffering exist in our world? Bart could not find an answer, but the bible does provide answers to these questions.

The number one reason why suffering abounds is found in the writing of the apostle John and he's answer lies in who really rules this world. Most people assume God is the ruler of the world and therefore everything that happens must be of his making.
But the truth is that the Chrstians did not believe God was the ruler of the earth.
According to the Apostle John at 1 John 5:19 “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”
And of the wicked one, he said that he is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.” (Revelation 12:9)
Satan is hateful, violent and cruel. And this world reflects the influence he has over it.

A second reason why there is so much suffering is that mankind has been imperfect and sinful ever since the rebellion in the garden of Eden. Sinful humans tend to struggle for dominance, and this results in wars, oppression, and suffering. Ecclesiastes 4:1 '...see all the acts of oppression that are being done under the sun, and, look! the tears of those being oppressed...'
Eccl 8:9 '...man has dominated man to his injury

A third reason for suffering is “time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all” (Ecclesiastes 9:11) In a world without our Creator as a protective ruler we have to fend for ourselves and we cannot control natural disasters that may befall us at any time. Our envirnment is way out of balance due to our own activity on earth, and this is causing the changes that bring natural disasters.

A forth reason is the way mankind are governing themselves. We created a monetry system that requires we all have adequate work so that we have money to survive.... but there just isnt enough jobs for everyone, so poverty is the result. With poverty comes crime. With crime comes violence and more suffering.
The bible tells us why we can't govern ourselves properly at Jeremiah 10:23 “I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”
God did not create us with the ability to govern ourselves independently of his rule. We need him for so many things, yet we try to do it all on our own and we simply dont have the capability.


You may not agree with these scriptures, but they all point to one thing... independence from God is a disaster for us. The only way to end the suffering is for mankind to return to the rulership of God, our Creator. When we do that, suffering will be no more.

Just answer ONE question. Is God omnipresent?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So God cares more about us being "free moral agents" than he does our well-being?

In mainstream Christianity, this is a false dilemma. If there is no suffering in Heaven, then there are two possibilities:

- there is no inherent conflict between lack of suffering and free will.

- there is a conflict, but God doesn't actually care about preserving free will.

 

[Storm]

In mainstream Christianity, this is a false dilemma. If there is no suffering in Heaven, then there are two possibilities:

- there is no inherent conflict between lack of suffering and free will.

- there is a conflict, but God doesn't actually care about preserving free will.

Depends on the specifics of the theology, actually.

Some folk go with the memory wipe theory, which is pretty horrific in my book.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Depends on the specifics of the theology, actually.

Some folk go with the memory wipe theory, which is pretty horrific in my book.

I thought the idea that people's memory was erased in Heaven was meant to specifically address the problem of people suffering in empathy for their loved ones in Hell. I don't see how it addresses the idea that if you let people with free will do what they want, suffering will necessarily result.

 

[Storm]

I thought the idea that people's memory was erased in Heaven was meant to specifically address the problem of people suffering in empathy for their loved ones in Hell. I don't see how it addresses the idea that if you let people with free will do what they want, suffering will necessarily result.

Oh, it doesn't. I missed that nuance and was addressing the conflict between bliss in Heaven and people you know being tortured.

This point is pretty easily handwaved in that when you get to Heaven, you supposedly stop sinning of your own free will, being freed of the sinful flesh.

Not real satisfactory, but whatever.

 

[9Westy9]

I know it isn't directed at me, but I'd anwer yes to that question.

so is god still benevolent then?

 

[Astravalon]

One of the most important questions that we face is why is there so much suffering. Bart Erhman lost his faith in the bible over this very question because he could not find the answer in the bible.

This is a good reason not to limit one's source of information to just one ancient holy book.

If God is all loving, why does evil and suffering exist in our world? Bart could not find an answer, but the bible does provide answers to these questions.

The number one reason why suffering abounds is found in the writing of the apostle John and he's answer lies in who really rules this world. Most people assume God is the ruler of the world and therefore everything that happens must be of his making.
But the truth is that the Chrstians did not believe God was the ruler of the earth.
According to the Apostle John at 1 John 5:19 “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”
And of the wicked one, he said that he is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.” (Revelation 12:9)
Satan is hateful, violent and cruel. And this world reflects the influence he has over it.

This doesn't quite let God off the hook, though. The entire system as it is was created by Him, and He foreknew -- if not outright foreordained -- that suffering would be a part of the system, whether due to Satan 'ruling' this world or some other reason.

A second reason why there is so much suffering is that mankind has been imperfect and sinful ever since the rebellion in the garden of Eden. Sinful humans tend to struggle for dominance, and this results in wars, oppression, and suffering. Ecclesiastes 4:1 '. ..see all the acts of oppression that are being done under the sun, and, look! the tears of those being oppressed...'
Eccl 8:9 '...man has dominated man to his injury

I agree that some suffering is due to people letting their ego run away with them. Not all suffering comes from that, however.

A third reason for suffering is “time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all” (Ecclesiastes 9:11) In a world without our Creator as a protective ruler we have to fend for ourselves and we cannot control natural disasters that may befall us at any time. Our envirnment is way out of balance due to our own activity on earth, and this is causing the changes that bring natural disasters.

I can certainly see how viewing this world as going without our Creator as protective ruler would cause some suffering. Wow! Again, though, whatever state this world is in can be traced back to the primary cause, which would be God. To borrow from that old Billy Joel tune, "we didn't start the fire."

I'm not saying that to blame God, however; in fact, I have my own theories which are less depressing and far more likely to be empowering as to what the purpose of the suffering is, but that's for another thread.

A forth reason is the way mankind are governing themselves. We created a monetry system that requires we all have adequate work so that we have money to survive.... but there just isnt enough jobs for everyone, so poverty is the result. With poverty comes crime. With crime comes violence and more suffering.
The bible tells us why we can't govern ourselves properly at Jeremiah 10:23 “I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”
God did not create us with the ability to govern ourselves independently of his rule. We need him for so many things, yet we try to do it all on our own and we simply dont have the capability.

Well, going by what you had just said previously about us living in "a world without our Creator as a protective ruler", I'm not quite sure we've got a choice in having to "do it all on our own", do we?

You may not agree with these scriptures, but they all point to one thing... independence from God is a disaster for us. The only way to end the suffering is for mankind to return to the rulership of God, our Creator. When we do that, suffering will be no more.

This suggests that those who do love and serve God never suffer. Is this what you're saying? Don't get me wrong -- I do believe there are advantages to having a loving relationship with the Lord and taking that with you when you go through suffering, but it seems you're suggesting that lovers of God never suffer.

I also am inclined to believe that independence from God is an illusion. Our very existence depends on Him, so anything we do from that existence also depends on Him.

 

[Tarheeler]

so is god still benevolent then?

I do think God loves mankind, and desires for us do well and show compassion and mercy to each other. But I also believe that God has set basic parameters in the universe that He will not change: laws of physics, the natural world, man's ability to choose, etc.

We live and interact with God within those parameters.

But I also don't hold the idea that God is in heaven, full of puppies and sunshine, watching us all and is compelled to act in our favor. If it were true, life would be much different.

I believe God's purpose in making man was to create something independent and able to think, and His benevolence is secondary to that purpose.