Bibles answer to the problem of suffering

[URAVIP2ME]

So God cares more about us being "free moral agents" than he does our well-being?

If God did not care about our well being he would not have told Adam that obeying him would result in everlasting life. Only disobedience would result in death.

Right after Adam's sin, God promised a 'seed' [Messiah] to come to our rescue.
Jesus proved to be that promised 'seed' or Messiah and Jesus will undo all the harm that father Adam brought upon mankind.- Genesis 3 v 15; Rev. 21 vs 4,5.

Being free to think our own thoughts, and free to make our own choices, means God does not force anyone to obey him. We can choose to love God or not by our own free will.

Jesus demonstrated that obeying God results in our best interests.
Disobeying God does not lead to peace but discord.
The world's thinking independent of God's thoughts have not resulted in peace and security. We are not designed to be successful without doing things God's way.

If we all followed God's Golden Rule, Jesus new commandent [John 13 vs 34,35], and our lifestyle reflected the fruitage of God's spirit [ Gal. 5 vs 22,23 ], what would the world be like today ?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Check Isaiah 45:7 to get a handle on the nature of God. If you accept the verse you have to realize that suffering-non-suferring comes from the same source. We really have very little control over either. We can only define the two and react accordingly. I believe that what we determine is suffering exists so that we can rise above self-pity and be better people.

In Scripture 'evil' is Not always synonymous with wrongdoing.

To protect the upright, God has used 'evil in the form of calamity' on the wicked.
God will only bring to ruin those ruining the earth [ Rev. 11 v 18 B ]
Earth was not created for the haughty wicked but created for the humble meek.
-Psalm 37 vs 11,29; 92 v 7; Proverbs 2 vs 21 ,22.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm all for "turning to God", and I agree that if we all lived as commanded we could greatly reduce man-made suffering. But suffering part of life, and it will never completely cease. There will always be death, disease, pain, natural disasters. What we can do is find ways to reduce the pain and compassionately deal with the suffering.

According to Scripture death, disease, pain, natural disasters: will definitely end.

Micah [4 v 3,4] tells us the time is coming when people will Not learn war anymore and No one will be afraid or will tremble, but each will have their own vine and fig tree.
Peaceful as Solomon's day was at 1st Kings 4 v 25. Each own property and food because Jesus will have subjects from sea to sea. - Psalm 72 v 8.

Enemy 'death' will also end according to Rev. 21 vs 4,5; 1st Cor. 15 v 26; Isaiah 25 v 8

Disease will No longer exist because: No one will say, "I am sick"- Isaiah 33 v 24

Jesus demonstrated his ability or power over earth's elements when he calmed the stormy sea by the words of his mouth. So that means there will be No more disasters, natural or otherwise.

Remember if Adam had not disobeyed God: then Adam would have remained hale and hearty and passed down to us healthy human perfection of having a sound heart, mind and body living forever in perfect robust health and happiness.
During Jesus' coming 1000-year reign over earth Jesus will undo all the damage father Adam brought upon us.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg, not to be rude, but if it's that obvious, why has the PoE been a central problem of Christianity for centuries?

If your answer works for you, great. But it's not ironclad.

what does PoE mean?

 

[Pegg]

I don't agree with your conclusion either.

I'm all for "turning to God", and I agree that if we all lived as commanded we could greatly reduce man-made suffering. But suffering part of life, and it will never completely cease. There will always be death, disease, pain, natural disasters. What we can do is find ways to reduce the pain and compassionately deal with the suffering.

What was the rule of King Solomon renown for?
The account reports: “As for Solomon, he proved to be ruler over all the kingdoms from the River [Euphrates] to the land of the Philistines and to the boundary of Egypt. They were bringing gifts and serving Solomon all the days of his life.” (1Ki 4:21)
During Solomon’s reign there was peace, and “Judah and Israel were many, like the grains of sand that are by the sea for multitude, eating and drinking and rejoicing.” “And Judah and Israel continued to dwell in security, everyone under his own vine and under his own fig tree, from Dan to Beer-sheba, all the days of Solomon.”—1Ki 4:20, 25

This tells us what life can be like when Jehovah is looking after us. If mankind return to him, his words are sure to be fulfilled:
Proverbs 3:25 You will not need to be afraid of any sudden dreadful thing, nor of the storm upon the wicked ones, because it is coming. 26 For Jehovah himself will prove to be, in effect, your confidence, and he will certainly keep your foot against capture'


The suffering we experience in the world is the result of mankind being independent and on their own. We can individually change that situation for ourselves by returning to him.

 

[GawdAweful]

what does PoE mean?

Problem of evil....why and how can an all loving, wise, and powerful god allow evil to exist or how evil even came to be if he has all those qualities.

 

[Pegg]

Just answer ONE question. Is God omnipresent?

Psalms 123:1 To you I have raised my eyes,
O You who are dwelling in the heavens

Psalm 11:4 Jehovah is in his holy temple. Jehovah—in the heavens is his throne. His own eyes behold, his own beaming eyes examine the sons of men

Isaiah 66:1 “This is what Jehovah has said: ‘The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that you people can build for me, and where, then, is the place as a resting-place for me?’”


Based on these scriptures, i would have to say 'no'. God resides in the heavens. So he is not omnipresent.

Just because he knows what you are thinking, does not mean he is inside your head.

 

[Pegg]

Problem of evil....why and how can an all loving, wise, and powerful god allow evil to exist or how evil even came to be if he has all those qualities.

Some people think evil is some kind of living entity....but evil is only an act that brings calamity or suffering to someone. I think the churches have had a problem with the idea too because they think in such terms...they think of evil as a person, an evil entity existing.

Sometimes God has performed an act that has resulted in calamity. And if i throw a rock and hit you in the eye with it, i have also performed an evil act because im a good aim and I hit my target and it hurt you. But it doesnt make me an evil entity.

 

[Pegg]

This is a good reason not to limit one's source of information to just one ancient holy book.

This doesn't quite let God off the hook, though. The entire system as it is was created by Him, and He foreknew -- if not outright foreordained -- that suffering would be a part of the system, whether due to Satan 'ruling' this world or some other reason.

the bible certainly does not support the idea that he 'foreordained' any of the suffering we experience. And the way mankind began life on this planet was anything but bad. they were given a beautiful home with Gods protection and guidance. He likely knew what would happen if they ever abandoned him which is why he warned them to remain loyal to him.....it was only when they left him that their problems began.

but even then, God put a plan in action that would see their offspring saved from the situation they had created for themselves.

I agree that some suffering is due to people letting their ego run away with them. Not all suffering comes from that, however.

I can certainly see how viewing this world as going without our Creator as protective ruler would cause some suffering. Wow! Again, though, whatever state this world is in can be traced back to the primary cause, which would be God. To borrow from that old Billy Joel tune, "we didn't start the fire."

well we didnt start the fire, but our first two parents did. So this problem is a man made problem... God is the only solution. And eventually all of mankind will come to realize that and so will choose to remain close to God and give up this warped sense of freedom they think they currently have.

Well, going by what you had just said previously about us living in "a world without our Creator as a protective ruler", I'm not quite sure we've got a choice in having to "do it all on our own", do we?

there will come a time when we will not have that choice anymore because we will cause so much suffering and damage that God will have to step in so that we dont destroy ourselves completely.

This suggests that those who do love and serve God never suffer. Is this what you're saying? Don't get me wrong -- I do believe there are advantages to having a loving relationship with the Lord and taking that with you when you go through suffering, but it seems you're suggesting that lovers of God never suffer.

problems and suffering are obviously eased somewhat by living according to Godly laws and principles.... but we still have sickness and death and natural disasters and the difficulites of living in a complex world. But the point is that when God is ruling mankind, this world will be changed so that those things do not exist.

I also am inclined to believe that independence from God is an illusion. Our very existence depends on Him, so anything we do from that existence also depends on Him.

our existence is absolutely 100% dependent on him.... the very fact that we live such short lives is evidence to me that we are certainly dependent on God to survive.

Going our own way cuts our lives short.. But when God is our ruler and we submit ourselves to his sovereignty, then life can be lived to the full
as Psalm 37:29 says; The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think the real Biblical response to the problem of suffering can be found in Job. It goes on for quite a while, but here's a sample:

8*“Would you discredit my justice?
****Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9*Do you have an arm like God’s,
****and can your voice thunder like his?
10*Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
****and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11*Unleash the fury of your wrath,
****look at all who are proud and bring them low,
12*look at all who are proud and humble them,
****crush the wicked where they stand.

IOW, "might makes right, so don't question my judgement until you're as powerful as I am."

 

[Storm]

Some people think evil is some kind of living entity....but evil is only an act that brings calamity or suffering to someone. I think the churches have had a problem with the idea too because they think in such terms...they think of evil as a person, an evil entity existing.

Sometimes God has performed an act that has resulted in calamity. And if i throw a rock and hit you in the eye with it, i have also performed an evil act because im a good aim and I hit my target and it hurt you. But it doesnt make me an evil entity.

That doesn't answer my question.

 

[Astravalon]

Psalms 123:1 

To you I have raised my eyes,
O You who are dwelling in the heavens

Psalm 11:4 Jehovah is in his holy temple. Jehovah—in the heavens is his throne. His own eyes behold, his own beaming eyes examine the sons of men

Isaiah 66:1 “This is what Jehovah has said: ‘The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that you people can build for me, and where, then, is the place as a resting-place for me?’”


Based on these scriptures, i would have to say 'no'. God resides in the heavens. So he is not omnipresent.

Psalm 139 seems to say otherwise.

the bible certainly does not support the idea that he 'foreordained' any of the suffering we experience. And the way mankind began life on this planet was anything but bad. they were given a beautiful home with Gods protection and guidance. He likely knew what would happen if they ever abandoned him which is why he warned them to remain loyal to him.....it was only when they left him that their problems began.

but even then, God put a plan in action that would see their offspring saved from the situation they had created for themselves.

He still knowingly designed people in such a way that they would create a less than ideal situation. One who sees Him as The Creator cannot get around that.

well we didnt start the fire, but our first two parents did. So this problem is a man made problem... God is the only solution. And eventually all of mankind will come to realize that and so will choose to remain close to God and give up this warped sense of freedom they think they currently have.

Man is seen as having made the problem. Now, tracing things back a step, who is it who made the people who, in turn, made the problem?

there will come a time when we will not have that choice anymore because we will cause so much suffering and damage that God will have to step in so that we dont destroy ourselves completely.

That doesn't answer my question, though.

I had indicated that, considering your combined views that 1) 'we are living in a world without our Creator as a protective ruler' and 2) we 'try to do it all on our own', that we would actually not have a choice but to do things on our own. So in that paradigm, it's not willful disobedience on our part that we attempt to operate apart from God, but a result of God opting not to rule and protect us. My question is, what other choice would we have in that scenario?

problems and suffering are obviously eased somewhat by living according to Godly laws and principles.... but we still have sickness and death and natural disasters and the difficulites of living in a complex world. But the point is that when God is ruling mankind, this world will be changed so that those things do not exist.

I see what you're saying, and I agree that there is a Paradise-esque dimension in which such turmoils don't exist. However, I don't see the presence of those things in this dimension as indicators that He isn't also currently ruler of this dimension as well. In other words, I think different dimensions can have different features, some which come with challenges, but that in no way has to mean that God isn't also just as much in charge of those dimensions as He is in the more comfortable ones.

I see Him as heading up the Boot Camps as well as the Vacation Resorts.

our existence is absolutely 100% dependent on him.... the very fact that we live such short lives is evidence to me that we are certainly dependent on God to survive.

Going our own way cuts our lives short.. But when God is our ruler and we submit ourselves to his sovereignty, then life can be lived to the full
as Psalm 37:29 says; The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.

In some cases, I suppose going our own way (how that is defined depends on the religious sect) can shorten life, although I hesitate to say that every grey-haired individual would necessarily qualify in Christianity's eyes as role models of righteousness. Proverbs 16:31 says "Gray hair is a crown of splendor; it is attained by a righteous life"; if that's true, then Christians might want to think twice before passing negative judgments on guys like Hugh Hefner.

 

[Awoon]

Psalms 123:1 To you I have raised my eyes,
O You who are dwelling in the heavens

Psalm 11:4 Jehovah is in his holy temple. Jehovah—in the heavens is his throne. His own eyes behold, his own beaming eyes examine the sons of men

Isaiah 66:1 “This is what Jehovah has said: ‘The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that you people can build for me, and where, then, is the place as a resting-place for me?’”


Based on these scriptures, i would have to say 'no'. God resides in the heavens. So he is not omnipresent.

Just because he knows what you are thinking, does not mean he is inside your head.

When did God move to the Heavens? Genesis states the Earth, Sun and Stars are in heaven, but no God.

 

[GawdAweful]

In mainstream Christianity, this is a false dilemma. If there is no suffering in Heaven, then there are two possibilities:

- there is no inherent conflict between lack of suffering and free will.

- there is a conflict, but God doesn't actually care about preserving free will.

Exactly. If God already had a perfect heaven with angels to share love and worship, why create the earth with such potential for disaster.

It's like creating the perfect car, but then also going ahead with the Ford Pinto that will explode on impact. (flashback to the 1970's)

We can only conclude that the Bible's God either lacked the ability to stop himself from creating Adam and Eve (Not all-powerful), lacked the wisdom, or didn't care that it could so easily erupt into thousands of years of untold suffering.

Why not create the earth with individuals, without reproduction, avoiding the whole sin-passing-on-thing, and the need for the eventual, but necessary blood sacrifice and torture of his Son to appease his perfect Justice.

 

[Tarheeler]

According to Scripture death, disease, pain, natural disasters: will definitely end.

Micah [4 v 3,4] tells us the time is coming when people will Not learn war anymore and No one will be afraid or will tremble, but each will have their own vine and fig tree.
Peaceful as Solomon's day was at 1st Kings 4 v 25. Each own property and food because Jesus will have subjects from sea to sea. - Psalm 72 v 8.

Enemy 'death' will also end according to Rev. 21 vs 4,5; 1st Cor. 15 v 26; Isaiah 25 v 8

Disease will No longer exist because: No one will say, "I am sick"- Isaiah 33 v 24

Jesus demonstrated his ability or power over earth's elements when he calmed the stormy sea by the words of his mouth. So that means there will be No more disasters, natural or otherwise.

Remember if Adam had not disobeyed God: then Adam would have remained hale and hearty and passed down to us healthy human perfection of having a sound heart, mind and body living forever in perfect robust health and happiness.
During Jesus' coming 1000-year reign over earth Jesus will undo all the damage father Adam brought upon us.

Yes, in the messianic age and in the World to Come. Not now, and not by man's doing.

Christian theology has no impact on my beliefs.

What was the rule of King Solomon renown for?
The account reports: “As for Solomon, he proved to be ruler over all the kingdoms from the River [Euphrates] to the land of the Philistines and to the boundary of Egypt. They were bringing gifts and serving Solomon all the days of his life.” (1Ki 4:21)
During Solomon’s reign there was peace, and “Judah and Israel were many, like the grains of sand that are by the sea for multitude, eating and drinking and rejoicing.” “And Judah and Israel continued to dwell in security, everyone under his own vine and under his own fig tree, from Dan to Beer-sheba, all the days of Solomon.”—1Ki 4:20, 25

This tells us what life can be like when Jehovah is looking after us. If mankind return to him, his words are sure to be fulfilled:
Proverbs 3:25 You will not need to be afraid of any sudden dreadful thing, nor of the storm upon the wicked ones, because it is coming. 26 For Jehovah himself will prove to be, in effect, your confidence, and he will certainly keep your foot against capture'


The suffering we experience in the world is the result of mankind being independent and on their own. We can individually change that situation for ourselves by returning to him.

None of what you posted states that there will be no suffering in life.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No future suffering according to Isaiah [33 v 24] because the time is coming when: "No resident will say, 'I am sick'".

What kind of suffering is described at Micah 4 vs 3,4 ?

What kind of suffering is described in Isaiah chapter 35 ?

What kind of suffering is described at Revelation 21 vs 4,5 ?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

When did God move to the Heavens? Genesis states the Earth, Sun and Stars are in heaven, but no God.

There are the heavens of outer space.
There is the mid-heavens where the birds fly.
There is the heaven of heavens where God resides.

Genesis is only one book of the Holy Bible.
All 66 books comprising the Holy Bible are from God according to 2nd Timothy 3 vs 16,17

Doesn't 1st kings chapter 8 place God in heaven as his dwelling place ?_______

 

[GawdAweful]

No future suffering according to Isaiah [33 v 24] because the time is coming when: "No resident will say, 'I am sick'".

What kind of suffering is described at Micah 4 vs 3,4 ?

What kind of suffering is described in Isaiah chapter 35 ?

What kind of suffering is described at Revelation 21 vs 4,5 ?

Yes. And that's why we know the NT God could have made paradise right at the beginning. There was no need for the suffering of all because of one man.

 

[Awoon]

There are the heavens of outer space.
There is the mid-heavens where the birds fly.
There is the heaven of heavens where God resides.

Genesis is only one book of the Holy Bible.
All 66 books comprising the Holy Bible are from God according to 2nd Timothy 3 vs 16,17

Doesn't 1st kings chapter 8 place God in heaven as his dwelling place ?_______

God got placed in the heavens by the writers of 1 Kings 8. Funny how you people wanna pick where yer God is or isnt.

Now tell us exactly where is "the heaven of the heavens."

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Exactly. If God already had a perfect heaven with angels to share love and worship, why create the earth with such potential for disaster.
It's like creating the perfect car, but then also going ahead with the Ford Pinto that will explode on impact. (flashback to the 1970's)
We can only conclude that the Bible's God either lacked the ability to stop himself from creating Adam and Eve (Not all-powerful), lacked the wisdom, or didn't care that it could so easily erupt into thousands of years of untold suffering.
Why not create the earth with individuals, without reproduction, avoiding the whole sin-passing-on-thing, and the need for the eventual, but necessary blood sacrifice and torture of his Son to appease his perfect Justice.

Didn't the 'disaster' start with angelic creation?
Satan an angelic cherub started the 'disaster'.
Didn't other angelic creation join Satan in rebelling against their Father and God ?

God as Creator first created the invisible spirit realm
Then branched out, so to speak, in creating a visible material realm.
What is wrong with the earth?
Adam nor Eve were forced to obey Satan.
They chose to have Satan as their god over their Creator.
Satan never challenged God's strength or power.
Rather, Satan challenges all of us that under adverse conditions we would not worship God. Both Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar and so can we. - Job 2 vs 4,5

Let's say God created Adam and Eve without reproduction.
They both disobeyed God. That would have been the end of humankind.
God purposed the earth be inhabited with descendants of Adam and Eve.
- Gen. 1 v 28

God has permitted temporary suffering because in the end he knows all suffering will end. No one will ever be able to point a finger at God saying they did not have a choice.
God forces no one to love and obey him. We choose that of our own free will.