I was commenting that the verses URAVIP2ME provided spoke about that time, not agreeing with you.
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Bibles answer to the problem of suffering
- Thread starter Pegg
- Start date
I was commenting that the verses URAVIP2ME provided spoke about that time, not agreeing with you.
What is your favorite commentary on Job?
Some suffering is like precious metal refinement in the fire. The fire is God's Holy Spirit making the one who is paying attention go in the right direction. The problem of suffering began when Man thought He is the one who leads in the right direction. Is not Man thinking Man is the director of fine works what is called Satan in the Bible?
I don't have one. Why?
This suggests one question to me right off the bat: why would God make a creation that is inclined to go in the wrong direction?
It's more interesting?
What is the most difficult part about writing a good story?
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A story is fine. Fictional people don't actually suffer.
Just trying to determine if your deprecatory view is based on anything other than condescension.
Are you suffering?
I agree, but I also believe that what is considered Adam's mistake would also be part of that purpose, if indeed it happened, since God knew well in advance it would take place.
That analogy works if the doctor didn't actually create the patient and the medication the patient is taking. God, however, is in an entirely different league, being omniscient and omnipotent Creator of both the people and circumstances involved.
This just takes us back to my previous point, that the problems didn't start with Adam and Eve, but with the One who designed them in such a way that they would screw up.
In the meantime, however, if God is opting not to rule and protect mankind here and now (which I don't believe is the case), man cannot be blamed for 'trying to do it all on his own'. I mean, in that scenario, atheists really have a case, at least right now, because in effect there is no God. An absentee God is a nonexistent God, in effect. Even if He's believed to finally 'show up' somewhere down the road.
That could be interpreted so many different ways. 'World' in those verses could also mean the age in which they were living at the time.
If it's to be understood that satan is indeed the official ruler of this age we are now living in, the bible also advises us to obey the authorities that have been put in place. Shall we all become loyal, card-carrying Satanists, then?
Nope, I just can't be so quick to dethrone God; I believe He's as fully in charge now as He always has been and always will be. There are plenty of verses in the bible which indicate He's in the details even now; you can find those verses in another thread here.
This reminds me of something else I find intriguing in light of discussions about the problem of evil/suffering.
If indeed suffering/evil is seen as that much of a problem, wouldn't the idea of suffering in even a fictional context be so offensive as to cause people to avoid writing/reading stories depicting that suffering?
Whether fiction or nonfiction, why do movies like The Hunger Games, or The Passion of the Christ, sell big in the box office if suffering is indeed seen as so dreadful? Since suffering is supposed to be a Problem, wouldn't folks be instead boycotting such films?
Evidently, when it comes to evil/suffering, people are finding some redeeming qualities therein, on some level... they pay money to go see it, often with hot, buttery popcorn on the side.
opcorn:So is it because people are sick puppies and like suffering for it's own sake, or because they are intelligent enough to know that hidden in the dirt of suffering is the gem of growth, strength, advancement, enlightenment, triumph; that suffering is a launch-pad towards a better self? And if we mere humans are able to appreciate this, perhaps God isn't so far off-base for having included it into the range of experiences available to us on this plane of existence.
And indeed, if we are eternal beings and this earthly life is only temporary, then, in a way, our experiences carry no more impact than those in a fictional story ... or experiences we might have in a dream. Ultimately, the story or the dream ends, and regardless of how dramatic the experiences within them were, we ourselves walk away without a scratch.
Not guessing about: What the Bible Really Teaches.
What I posted is as close as possible for me to explain what the Bible is really teaching us. The unquoted verses show where I found that information, and if anyone can show differently then why not explain why not instead of just saying it is a guess.
What is the guess about what is found in the what the Bible is really teaching ?
Even if any doubt the Bible as God's Word, that does not mean it isn't.
Even an atheist that adheres to the dogmatic view there is no God, he can not prove there is no God, but just show the exercise of faith in the non-existence of God.
Typical defense for Bible pushers. No one mentioned Atheist but YOU.
GawdAweful
Pseudo-Philosopher
Yes, that's the answer for some.
And that is the reason for others.
Yes. I believe you're right. It's obvious God allows suffering. What's being refuted is that the Bible has the satisfactory answer to the question of 'why'.
GawdAweful
Pseudo-Philosopher
So for those that accept the Biblical version of the Fall and sin entering the world:
Why, before Adam and Eve, were animals designed to die and kill one another if suffering was not part of His plan?
Humans are not the only sentient beings on this planet. Animals seem to have been completely forgotten by their maker. A loving human often puts an animal to sleep out of its misery. Why does God let them die slowly?
God will provide for this kitten.
What makes you think so?
Because I know it! Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His seeing it.
But it falls, just the same. What good is seeing it fall?
-Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger
Why, before Adam and Eve, were animals designed to die and kill one another if suffering was not part of His plan?
Humans are not the only sentient beings on this planet. Animals seem to have been completely forgotten by their maker. A loving human often puts an animal to sleep out of its misery. Why does God let them die slowly?
God will provide for this kitten.
What makes you think so?
Because I know it! Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His seeing it.
But it falls, just the same. What good is seeing it fall?
-Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger
Not forgotten according to Isaiah [ 11 vs 6-9 ] because the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. and the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. and even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. The sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra, and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. They will not do any harm or cause any ruin.......
GawdAweful
Pseudo-Philosopher
What good is that to the pet down the road...and I warn I am being graphic, but it is a true story...that was burned with matches and left to die on the highway in the winter. Great for all the animals in that new earth, but a single innocent animal suffering now or before Adam, is not affected by Isaiah's prediction. It shows even more so how unfair the Bible's creator is.
I propose that if even a SINGLE animal has suffered, the God of the Bible is unjust. He created a world of suffering even before Adam sinned.
Not only was it God's purpose for mankind to enjoy life but man was to care for animal creation.- Genesis 1 v 28
Before Adam sinned what human was around to abuse animals?
God did not burn animals. It is disobedient mankind that does such things.
Disobedient mankind even abuses humankind.- Ecc. 8 vs 9,11
Didn't God Not approve of child sacrifice? -Jeremiah 32 v 35
So, he certainly would not approve of animal torture or burning.
If God would have ended Adam and Eve's life before they had children we simply would not be here.
The passing of time has allowed for us to be born and think who we would like as sovereign above us ?
If everyone on earth lived by the Golden Rule how would animal creation be treated?
If everyone on earth lived by Jesus' new commandment of John [13 vs 34,35] how would animal kind be treated ?
Before Adam sinned what human was around to abuse animals?
God did not burn animals. It is disobedient mankind that does such things.
Disobedient mankind even abuses humankind.- Ecc. 8 vs 9,11
Didn't God Not approve of child sacrifice? -Jeremiah 32 v 35
So, he certainly would not approve of animal torture or burning.
If God would have ended Adam and Eve's life before they had children we simply would not be here.
The passing of time has allowed for us to be born and think who we would like as sovereign above us ?
If everyone on earth lived by the Golden Rule how would animal creation be treated?
If everyone on earth lived by Jesus' new commandment of John [13 vs 34,35] how would animal kind be treated ?
I could ask the same thing of you. When's the last time you contributed anything but snark and condescension here?
If you have a point, make it and defend it. OTOH, if you just stick to heckling, I'll give you the regard befitting a heckler.
So... do you have anything to contribute?