sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Oh, He could break them but then He would not be righteous. If He were not righteous He would not be fit to judge man.
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Biggest Problem of Christianity (Vicarious Redemption)
- Thread starter Rational Agnostic
- Start date
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Well sin certainly seems to be a contention. One would think that would apply uniformly to the point that you would think man was really not the first to sin nor was even made pure from the start of it all considering Genesis and the account of the fall of the Angels from the perspective of Christianity.
Anyways just even having laws suggest disobedience by which laws are necessitated and subsequently implemented.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Man clearly needs laws. God must be just in His handling of the law. Love comes through grace. His greatest attribute is that He is a just God or He would not be a proper judge of man nor would He be righteous. God is not to be seen through a narrow lens.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
This is your view, not the view of God. Sin is the violation of law. Where there is no law there is no sin.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Even when I was a Christian I wondered what exactly you needed to be saved from. Christianity was never clear about that and kept blaming the act of sin.
The only thing is they make sin sound like it's some sort of communicable or inherited disease that can be spread like it's in somebody's genetics or something.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
The Law came because of the disobedience of man.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
So how do you explain the angels? The devil in context of Christianity. If they have no free will, than they can't sin right?
So how did they fall?
Axe Elf
Prophet
I don't understand why people always see death as a "punishment." We're all going to die, same as every other creature on Earth. Nobody ever screams how unjust God must be for putting all the squirrels to death. The sacrifice of Jesus (God becoming man and abandoning his human nature to death) allows some of us to abandon our human nature to death and take on the nature of God for eternity.
Now, don't ask me for all the metaphysical mechanics of how this transference of divine nature works--I don't know--but the point is that it's not about avoiding punishment, it's about escaping mortality. Without the sacrifice of Jesus, we would all simply die and cease to exist. Because of the sacrifice, some of us will survive. The only thing being tortured is an explanation that turns this into a bad thing, and God into a monster for providing the escape hatch.
Now, don't ask me for all the metaphysical mechanics of how this transference of divine nature works--I don't know--but the point is that it's not about avoiding punishment, it's about escaping mortality. Without the sacrifice of Jesus, we would all simply die and cease to exist. Because of the sacrifice, some of us will survive. The only thing being tortured is an explanation that turns this into a bad thing, and God into a monster for providing the escape hatch.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Man doesnt need laws from another. I am man so are you. I see no need for spirituals outside myself; thousands of people agree with me.
Justice does not show love. The act of punishment by definition is negative (someone hurting another in relation to whats best from the hurter not the one hurt.) It is a form of anger even if that word is uncomfortable. For years the christian god was negative in how he handles sinners. He is a reflection of man-you and I-not god.
Once you take out punishment y9u have love left. Love shows by example. Love teaches. Love engages. Love does not hit. No human sacrifice (roman barbarics), but plain parent in which ghe fhild is Taught to follow tbe parent out of love npt obligation.
I see no love in justice. Seeing love through a negative lens got many people killed by the death penalty. It got people beheaded and others thrown by lions.
It got people sacrificed.
Where is the justice of love through the death rather than life of another. Usr only humans to answer sobI get the idea without religious filters.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
Excellent question.
Our own secular courts would never claim to "love" either the plaintiff nor the defendant. Can you imagine how we'd think of the courts if they started off by stating that they "loved" both sides? In order to be justice in the first place, it has to be as impartial as possible.
Think also about how many times people "in love" forgive even the worst trespasses against themselves by their intended lover. In love is just about the worst place to be if trying to discern "justice."
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
Well obviously the Trinity is also a major problem for you. Let me tell you how I think about this. The Trinity is a community of three fully divine individuals or persons. One of them has a body (Not important, just thought I'd throw it in there). And the Son of God is not the Father. While the Trinity's members are coequal, they are not the same person. Therefore, when Jesus died, the Father separated him from himself on your's and my behalf. But three days later God raised him from the dead. If Jesus had not been resurrected then one could claim that God was cruel and that vicarious redemption mattered nothing but that's not how the story goes. Jesus wins in the end.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
You're confused. This little fantasy of yours as to how man should be differs diametrically from how we are. Even without God, man has made his own laws. Outside of religion, orderly society must have order. Order is law. How else would you know which side of the street to drive on?
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
... Yes!
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
It would really seem to be simply a higher ordering of our energy. We moved from a lower form, elements, to a more complex ordered form, man. Why would moving past this form into a more ordered energy state not be the next step. Nothing too metaphysical about this.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Well then. I fail to see love without justice. Love isn't just all ice cream and syrup.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Multiple erroneous conclusions. A) God is both just and merciful B) Disobedience has a stated consequence C) Justice requires that the consequence be applied. D) if it isn´t God is a liar and unjust. E) Mercy requires empathy and compassion on those who by free will choose to disobey, and every generation since has been disobedient. Their free will has been compromised F) The original great disobedience was chosen by one who was perfect, in that there was no previous environment of disobedience, no culture saturated by disobedience, no reason by external and internal forces to disobey. G)If that original perfect prototype had chosen wisely, every subsequent human would have his/hers advantage of nothing but cool reason with no extraneous influences to exercising pure free will. H) Recognizing that humanity was handicapped, and recognizing that justice and itś penalty had to be served to be just J) Once again a perfect human chose the path of grappling with the choice to disobey, the task was exponentially more difficult because disobedience was inculcated in all humanity. K) Never disobeying he earned the right to by proxy substitute his life for sinful humanity, ensuring they representatively were perfect L) He earned the right to, by proxy, take the consequences all of humanityś committed disobedience upon himself, which is death. He got what they deserved, they got what He deserved. M) God is perfectly just. perfectly merciful. The penalty was exacted with God experiencing great pain, and failure at catastrophic cost could have occured. Mercy was served by giving those who choose, what Christ deserves, life not death, He being a perfect proxy for both....................There ya go
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
You dont need to insult me to have a full conversation.
Reread my post. I said man doesnt need laws (spiritual) from an outside party. It comes from us individually.
I am man. So are you. No one has the upperhand.
How can I benefit from your god when your god seperates you from "man"?
Who are you if not man?
We dont need others to define our spirituality. Politics are not included.
Reread my post. I said man doesnt need laws (spiritual) from an outside party. It comes from us individually.
I am man. So are you. No one has the upperhand.
How can I benefit from your god when your god seperates you from "man"?
Who are you if not man?
We dont need others to define our spirituality. Politics are not included.
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I see love as: teaching, example, learning, communication, expression, being one. There is no need for "justice" in a enviornment of love.
I see no benefit from justice. I see it from life.
Give me an example of how a negative action is the same as a positive one.
Well according to science free will is an illusion so we can't sin anyway.
As far as God as some angry father figure no, I don't believe that guy exists. In fact, it would be mere stupidity to assume that whatever it actually it is it needs to be limited to our silly ideas. Such a thing may not even exist as a being per Se, but as something much more nebulous... It may be completely unthinking and unaware. Whatever it is, it created everything regardless of how we perceive it. Good, bad, whatever...