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Biggest Problem of Christianity (Vicarious Redemption)

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
Haven't you ever wished we know less about what Jesus did and the plot of his days and more about what he thought and said?

Yes. Even though it is possible he didn't say much at all beyond the humanistic ethics presented in the gospels. Maybe he didn't think much else was important.

Funny you bring up the Buddha and his disciples. Because one of the things our friend @Vouthon likes pointing out is that after their earthly ministries respectively: both Jesus and the Buddha came to be seen as supermundane beings by their followers. More than human, and descended into the world of forms from the higher.
 
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Axe Elf

Prophet
suppose you and I were the disciples of an immensely charismatic person we thought was a savior who suddenly died poorly. I think you and I would probably be grasping for reasons too.

That scenario would be a lot more likely if Jesus hadn't told them what was going to happen ahead of time.

Of course, I suppose one could suggest that they only added that part after the fact, but in that case, the authors of all four gospels would have had to make up most of their accounts of the Last Supper out of whole cloth, an in virtually the same ways in all four accounts.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Always interesting when non-Christians try to pick apart things they do not understand.

You should take some university courses in comparative religious studies. You'd be surprised how often students don't understand their own religion, don't know the facts, etc. Doesn't make a bit of difference whether it's a Hindu not understanding Hinduism or a Jew not understanding Judaism.

Partly, it seems to be a matter of not seeing the forest for the trees.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
Partly, it seems to be a matter of not seeing the forest for the trees.

It's a complex question my friend, rather we ought to take the critical position of scholars toward religions OR 'experiences' of adherents as better advisors in considering a worldview.

I tend to think we should probably consider both.

As a Buddhist with a very traditional flair, I understand well how an adherent of a religion might feel that critical scholarship makes their beliefs too down to earth sometimes.
 
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Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
I will attempt to do you very thorough post justice, but I hope my being a Buddhist doesn't make things too difficult. I consider other religions, but at the same time- I'm very much a man of conscience and an observant Buddhist, faithful to my own worldview with it's ins and outs.

but I think both viewpoints have some basis in truth

Yes, perhaps they do.

It is not any particular act, but it is anything that separates us from God.

Yes, I think this is going more toward the Christian understanding. Your statement I mean. Because for Jews it does seem to be more about the act specifically.

"Everything is permissible (allowable and lawful) for me; but not all things are helpful (good for me to do, expedient and profitable when considered with other things). Everything is lawful for me, but I will not become the slave of anything or be brought under its power." --1 Corinthians 6:12

That's good food for thought, rather it reconciles the differences between Jews and Christians or not :)

but no act is defined as sin except to the extent that it separates you from God.

I'm not sure how much Jews would emphasize this compared to Christians, is always my question. Also, I don't think all Christians emphasize sin to a degree of being a corrupting force- but that's certainly a difference for those that do.

That is the difference I was more getting at. That Christians give sin cosmic implications, and see it very much like a collective force.
 
1. God did not torture Jesus to death, Jews did.
2. Most laws in the torah is for priests, among others sacrificial laws.
3. Through one mans obidience many were made righteous. The idea that someone dies for another mans sins is filed in Isaiah 53 (The Lords suffering servant)
4. It is impossible to break the law after Jesus died.
5. Police officers agree, no one transgress the law of moses. if they do they are mislead. Because Jesus took away the sin of the world through his blood.
6 Love. When speaking of love, christians mean this love God felt. Thats Gods Love for man. Love overshades a lot of sin.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
There are many criticisms I could make of Christianity, but to me the biggest problem is also the central, most fundamental doctrine of Christianity, namely, Christ's supposed substitutionary atonement for the sins of mankind. The idea is that since humankind sinned by rebelling against God, that God must punish humanity for their sins, however, instead of punishing mankind, the story goes that God literally tortures and kills his own innocent son in man's place. This is the probably the most profoundly stupid and immoral doctrine anyone could come up with. Why would God torture and kill an entirely innocent person for the sins of others? Why could he not just forgive the sins of humankind without having to torture and kill his own son (who, paradoxically, also happens to be himself, but that's another issue for another post). I can anticipate that the response is that justice has to be delivered, and someone must receive a punishment, and Jesus willingly chose to take the punishment for mankind. But there is obviously a problem with this, since Jesus receiving man's punishment is not justice at all, in fact, it is simply indiscriminate vengeance on God's part. Basically, Christians are saying that God is so angry that he has to violently punish someone. It doesn't matter who he punishes, as long as someone gets punished. He can't just forgive humankind, he has to vicariously sacrifice himself to himself and punish himself to save humankind from his own indiscriminate anger. How can anyone think this doctrine makes the least bit of sense, from a moral or rational perspective? Do y'all actually think the guy who created the whole universe is this twisted and convoluted?

I can understand how you might think that. But I find it short in understanding.

It appears like you really weren't asking anyting but rather just making your veiwpoint known. (Which I don't have a problem with since we are free will spiritual agents on this earth).

I just don't agree with your viewpoint.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I'm very sympathetic to the notion Jesus saw himself and his role as that of a Jewish reformer. I'm not a scholar though.

Here's a thought for you: Compare and contrast the disciples of Jesus and the Buddha. Not Jesus and the Buddha, but their disciples.

Buddha teaches for nearly 50 years and his disciples love him but manage to memorize a whole lot of his ideas that later get written down.

Jesus teaches for about six months and his disciples love him but later pass on relatively few of his ideas and instead seem to focus much more on his life events.

Haven't you ever wished we know less about what Jesus did and the plot of his days and more about what he thought and said?

Indeed, this is an interesting point to consider.

I think that's the essence of it though: his life was so dramatic, it ultimately took centre stage, with the exception of the communities who composed the sayings gospels of Q and Thomas (for whom his wisdom, or rather his status as the earthly manifestation of divine wisdom, was paramount).

Jesus was the only founder of a major world religion to be executed by torture-death as a criminal, on charges of treason against the world's most powerful empire.

While other religious figures lived interesting lives, none of them have lived one quite so dramatic.

His humiliating, agonising state execution likewise tells us something important: his statements, whatever he was saying, really must have been perceived as a serious threat by the Roman authorities in Judea.

Any interpretation of Jesus' teaching has to account for the fact that he was executed for whatever he went around preaching about. He certainly saw himself in the mould of the Old Testament prophets that had preceded him, with their social messages, as @Buddha Dharma explained. But he obviously must have gone further in some way, to warrant such an extreme death penalty.

My forays into New Testament scholarship have led me to the conclusion that Jesus was convinced God was soon going to act by overthrowing the corrupt world governing powers and inaugurate a perfect Kingdom in which the poor would be raised up, the rich cast down, the outcasts of society vindicated and the powerful humbled.

He taught that his disciples could prepare for this post-apocalyptic paradise by finding God's Kingdom within them in the intermediate time, in the form of cultivating values like learning to love enemies, practising nonviolence in response to provocation, abandoning all earthly possessions, adopting a pure and childlike attitude to life and ministering to the most vulnerable, needy members of society.

In this way, his community would create a mini-version of a way of life which Jesus expected, eventually, to encompass not only all Judea but ultimately the entire world. It was a radically egalitarian vision, as exemplified by the proto-communism of the early church.

He used cryptic, moralistic tales - parables - and pithy, bold sayings to get his points across to the masses. This is the most popular scholarly position - Jesus as an apocalyptic prophet, but not apocalyptic as we think of it today (i.e. less End Times and more a case of a new age in which God rules over the earth in peace and plenty).

Unfortunately, this utopian vision didn't pan out. The Romans were mortified that a man was going around a buffer state province on the far eastern edge of their empire preaching about the coming of a Kingdom, a new social order, that was radically different from life under the rule of the Caesars.

And the Jewish chief priests, clients of the Roman regime, were obviously terrified by his rampage in the Temple, when he effectively imposed an embargo on goods and money entering the sacred precinct and accused the religious leaders of being a den of thieves exploiting the common people and incurring God's judgement.

And so, he was seen as such a significant threat the authorities saw fit to give him the most painful, humiliating death possible - stripped naked and nailed to a stake - so that people got the message: this Kingdom of God thing isnt going to happen. His followers were forced to contend with the fact that their beloved leader, supposedly the herald of a new divine order in the world, had ostensibly failed - reduced to a horrendous death and himself crying out in misery, "why has God forsaken me?"

The only certainty scholars have come up with is that, whatever he taught, Jesus was not perceived as a meek and mild Sunday school "nice-guy". You don't have to brutally execute Sunday school nice-guys to silence them and send a message to their followers. People often mistake nonviolence and pacifism for being "nicey-nicey", which is not the case at all.

Unfortunately for the Romans, Jesus got the last laugh. His death was the act that effectively sealed the fate of their civilization, which 300 years later would be completely dominated and subverted by the Jesus Movement, as it became the state religion of the Empire before it collapsed, having completely vanquished the pagan cults and traditions. In Jesus' lifetime, the Emperor was worshipped as a deity and Jesus was condemned as a criminal. 300 years later, Jesus was the only deity left in town and the divine cult of the emperor was abolished, with anyone still practising it declared a criminal.

The cross, supposed to be the symbol of Jesus' failure and humiliation, was turned by his followers into a thing of awe and power - God's decisive intervention in history to save humankind. It led Jesus to be quickly deified by his followers after his death, as the glorified and eternally pre-existent divine agent of God (a belief attested even in Paul''s earliest letters), whom death had no power over.

This wouldn't have happened if the Romans hadn't decided to "do him in".
 
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Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Ah, now you take shots at me. I think we've gone around enough for today. :)

I don't expect this to mean much to anyone, but I am quite learned on the subject of world religions- though philosophy was my major. Philosophers often do have world religions as a minor.


All except truth of Christianity.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
1. God did not torture Jesus to death, Jews did.

Actually, I think you'll find it was the Romans who tortured Jesus to death.

The Jewish priestly authorities and elders in Jerusalem (whom I presume you are referring to by "Jews") were merely clients and vassals of the occupying imperial regime.

So, in the end, the Romans were in charge of the whole outfit.

Tacitus, the celebrated Roman historian who wrote in A.D. 116 about the persecution of Christians under Nero, explained from his sources how:


"Christ, from whom the name [of the sect of the Christians] had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome"

Notice how he mentions nothing about "the Jews" and this represents an objective, secular witness to what happened.
 
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BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
There are many criticisms I could make of Christianity, but to me the biggest problem is also the central, most fundamental doctrine of Christianity, namely, Christ's supposed substitutionary atonement for the sins of mankind. The idea is that since humankind sinned by rebelling against God, that God must punish humanity for their sins, however, instead of punishing mankind, the story goes that God literally tortures and kills his own innocent son in man's place. This is the probably the most profoundly stupid and immoral doctrine anyone could come up with. Why would God torture and kill an entirely innocent person for the sins of others? Why could he not just forgive the sins of humankind without having to torture and kill his own son (who, paradoxically, also happens to be himself, but that's another issue for another post). I can anticipate that the response is that justice has to be delivered, and someone must receive a punishment, and Jesus willingly chose to take the punishment for mankind. But there is obviously a problem with this, since Jesus receiving man's punishment is not justice at all, in fact, it is simply indiscriminate vengeance on God's part. Basically, Christians are saying that God is so angry that he has to violently punish someone. It doesn't matter who he punishes, as long as someone gets punished. He can't just forgive humankind, he has to vicariously sacrifice himself to himself and punish himself to save humankind from his own indiscriminate anger. How can anyone think this doctrine makes the least bit of sense, from a moral or rational perspective? Do y'all actually think the guy who created the whole universe is this twisted and convoluted?

So, you cheat with a man's wife, and when the man comes to kill you, your best buddy jumps in front of the bullet. Being a good, thoughtful skeptic, you scream at your friend, "How DARE you presume to take my punishment for my sin without asking me?! What hubris to think that for love's sake, you would take a bullet for me?! What the Hell is wrong with you, you fool?!"

You're right! Christianity makes no sense!
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
The Jewish priestly authorities and elders in Jerusalem (whom I presume you are referring to by "Jews") were merely clients and vassals of the occupying imperial regime.

You know, I'm curious what you think. Some scholars argue that the trial narratives are doubtful, or must have been informed by incomplete information because of facts like Barabbas being released mirroring the scapegoat. A more notable detail is that the Sanhedrin is depicted as trying to find cause for Jesus's death, even though they had even that power taken away by the Romans.

I believe the last time the Sanhedrin had that authority during that time period, was under the Hasmoneans prior to the Herodians.

Do you think the trial narratives concerning Jesus found in the gospels are entirely accurate?
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
You know, I'm curious what you think. Some scholars argue that the trial narratives are doubtful, or must have been informed by incomplete information because of facts like Barabbas being released mirroring the scapegoat. A more notable detail is that the Sanhedrin is depicted as trying to find cause for Jesus's death, even though they had even that power taken away by the Romans.

I believe the last time the Sanhedrin had that authority during that time period, was under the Hasmoneans prior to the Herodians.

Do you think the trial narratives concerning Jesus found in the gospels are entirely accurate?

No, I don't think they are entirely accurate, nor would I consider them to be purposefully misleading either. I regard your overview as correct but not for reasons of "incomplete information". The Gospels are actually extremely accurate, in general, when it comes to the social and topographical characteristics of first century Judea and Galilee. So the issues with the trial scenes are anomalies best explained by other extenuating circumstances.

The Roman Empire was an absolutist state and Christians were a loathed sect identified as a "mischievous superstition".

The fact that the early Christians followed a man who had been tried and executed using the most extreme penalty by a Roman prefect, potentially meant that every Christian might be a criminal in the eyes of the government.

As such, the sacred authors of the New Testament had to tread very carefully around the issue of Jesus's trial. If they wrote something too accusatory of the state, then it could have been treated as a treasonous document. So there were significant limitations placed upon them in terms of what they could and couldn't say.

At the same time, the Roman Empire's relations with the Jews had hit rock-bottom by the end of the first century when the New Testament books were composed. The onset of the Roman-Jewish Wars between 66 and 136 CE, beginning with the Great Revolt which led to the destruction of the Temple and ending with the Bar Kokhba uprising which saw Judea itself wiped off the map, were an even greater complication.

In the earliest phase, Christians were classed as a "Jewish sect": which was perfectly natural given that Early Christianity was a mutation within the context of Second Temple Judaism. In Claudius 25, the Roman historian Suetonius (c. AD 69 – c. AD 122) refers to the expulsion of Jews by Claudius between AD 41 to AD 54 (which is also referred to in the New Testament, Acts 18:12):


"Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome."


Most scholars consider 'Chrestus' to be Jesus Christ and the disturbances that precipitated the emperor's decision to expel the Jews from Rome, are thought to have been due to Jewish Christians quarreling with mainstream Jews about Jesus being the Messiah.

By the time of the Jewish wars, it was no longer safe for Christians to be viewed as a superstitious Jewish cult. For reasons of their safety, these communities had to sharply distinguish themselves from Jews - which is why the trial accounts in the canonical gospels were written as they are.

During the last Jewish rebellion, the Bar Kokhba Revolt (132–136 CE) when a Jewish messianic claimant fomented a full-scale war of liberation against the Romans, we know that Christian Jews were heavily persecuted by the rebels because they recognized Jesus as the Messiah and refused to join the war effort against Rome, for which reason other Jews saw them as heretical traitors. We learn something interesting, to this end,


It was the generation following the destruction of the Temple which brought about a final rupture between Jews and Christians .... In the third rebellion against Rome [132-135 A.D.], when the Christians were unable to accept bar Kochba as their Messiah, they declared that their kingdom was of the other world, and withdrew themselves completely from Judaism and everything Jewish. The alienation process was completed. Judaism and Christianity became strangers to each other .... A wall of misunderstanding and hate was erected by the narrow zealotries of the two faiths. [pp. 152, 153, Jews, God and History, Max I. Dimont, A Signet Book, 1962.]

Noted Christian Bible historian, Philip Schaff writes: " (A.D. 132-135). A pseudo-Messiah, Bar-Cochba (son of the stars, Num. 24:17), afterwards called Bar-Cosiba (son of falsehood), put himself at the head of the rebels, and caused all the Christians who would not join him to be most cruelly murdered." – p. 37, History of the Christian Church, Vol. II, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1995 reprint.​

"Cochba [bar Kochba] ... tortured and killed the Christians who refused to aid him against the Roman army." - p. 42, Greek Apologists of the Second Century, Robert M. Grant, The Westminster Press, 1988.


"Another Christian apologist, Justin [Martyr], tells how ... Bar Kochba, the leader of the insurrection, ordered Christians alone to be executed if they would not deny and curse Jesus the Messiah." - Ibid.


"After the war the Jerusalem church, once Jewish, consisted only of Gentiles." - Ibid.​


This was the culmination of a trend we can see beginning around the time the New Testament texts were written.

So the horrible irony is that Christian anti-semitism, which proceeded to seriously impair and damage the lives of so many innocent Jews over the course of the next centuries, began as an attempt by a persecuted sect to protect themselves from slaughter by both the Romans and mainstream Jews of their time.

The accounts of Jesus' trial by the Sanhedrin are key to all of this. The gospel accounts were written in a seriously politically charged and dangerous climate.
 
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ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
There are many criticisms I could make of Christianity, but to me the biggest problem is also the central, most fundamental doctrine of Christianity, namely, Christ's supposed substitutionary atonement for the sins of mankind. The idea is that since humankind sinned by rebelling against God, that God must punish humanity for their sins, however, instead of punishing mankind, the story goes that God literally tortures and kills his own innocent son in man's place. This is the probably the most profoundly stupid and immoral doctrine anyone could come up with. Why would God torture and kill an entirely innocent person for the sins of others? Why could he not just forgive the sins of humankind without having to torture and kill his own son (who, paradoxically, also happens to be himself, but that's another issue for another post). I can anticipate that the response is that justice has to be delivered, and someone must receive a punishment, and Jesus willingly chose to take the punishment for mankind. But there is obviously a problem with this, since Jesus receiving man's punishment is not justice at all, in fact, it is simply indiscriminate vengeance on God's part. Basically, Christians are saying that God is so angry that he has to violently punish someone. It doesn't matter who he punishes, as long as someone gets punished. He can't just forgive humankind, he has to vicariously sacrifice himself to himself and punish himself to save humankind from his own indiscriminate anger. How can anyone think this doctrine makes the least bit of sense, from a moral or rational perspective? Do y'all actually think the guy who created the whole universe is this twisted and convoluted?

This has been a subject I've been harping on for a long time. First off, no one can die/be sacrificed for your salvation. In fact Jesus and John the Baptist both promoted repentance as the path to salvation. And it wasn't the Jewish followers that came up with the concept of Jesus salvific death, but Paul, a Roman citizen by his semi-Jewish Herodian ancestry, who melded the Jewish Jesus movement with pagan Mithraism--the Roman center of which was in his home town of Tarsus.

Jesus being the sacrificial lamb of God was an extension of the Paschal Lamb, which is a further extension of the horrific practices of animal sacrifices in the Temple. Jesus is one of at least three instances of human sacrifice in the Bible, with apparent divine sanction. Abraham, at the mere suggestion of "sacrificing" his son, should have told God to take a hike.

I've had evangelical Christians, one a family member of mine, tell me they would sacrifice their child if God told them to. So this isn't a problem we can write off as being an ancient practice.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
So, you cheat with a man's wife, and when the man comes to kill you, your best buddy jumps in front of the bullet. Being a good, thoughtful skeptic, you scream at your friend, "How DARE you presume to take my punishment for my sin without asking me?! What hubris to think that for love's sake, you would take a bullet for me?! What the Hell is wrong with you, you fool?!"

You're right! Christianity makes no sense!

That's an absurd example. You're comparing actual, physical sacrifice for physical salvation, with physical sacrifice for spiritual salvation. Only we can save ourselves spiritually through repentance, something both Jesus and John the Baptist taught.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There are many criticisms I could make of Christianity, but to me the biggest problem is also the central, most fundamental doctrine of Christianity, namely, Christ's supposed substitutionary atonement for the sins of mankind. The idea is that since humankind sinned by rebelling against God, that God must punish humanity for their sins, however, instead of punishing mankind, the story goes that God literally tortures and kills his own innocent son in man's place. This is the probably the most profoundly stupid and immoral doctrine anyone could come up with. Why would God torture and kill an entirely innocent person for the sins of others? Why could he not just forgive the sins of humankind without having to torture and kill his own son (who, paradoxically, also happens to be himself, but that's another issue for another post). I can anticipate that the response is that justice has to be delivered, and someone must receive a punishment, and Jesus willingly chose to take the punishment for mankind. But there is obviously a problem with this, since Jesus receiving man's punishment is not justice at all, in fact, it is simply indiscriminate vengeance on God's part. Basically, Christians are saying that God is so angry that he has to violently punish someone. It doesn't matter who he punishes, as long as someone gets punished. He can't just forgive humankind, he has to vicariously sacrifice himself to himself and punish himself to save humankind from his own indiscriminate anger. How can anyone think this doctrine makes the least bit of sense, from a moral or rational perspective? Do y'all actually think the guy who created the whole universe is this twisted and convoluted?
death is an interesting topic. What do you believe it is? Btw this story crops up in other cultures that are on the other side of the planet independent of middle eastern culture such as Mayan culture. So if the story crops up in totally different clothing that's interesting stuff and says something about the story. You seem lost in regards to the clothing of the story.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That scenario would be a lot more likely if Jesus hadn't told them what was going to happen ahead of time.

Of course, I suppose one could suggest that they only added that part after the fact, but in that case, the authors of all four gospels would have had to make up most of their accounts of the Last Supper out of whole cloth, an in virtually the same ways in all four accounts.
Actually, if Jesus and his disciples were planning to radically disrupt the Temple premises based on an expected and imminent end-of-world, then too the supper in the night before would assume significance.
 
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