"Bikini or Headscarf": An interesting article via CNN and O Magazine

[*Anne*]

...as a man, it would break my heart seeing my daughter thinking she should cover herself.

*nods* Oh, I agree in that if my daughter did it because she thought she should cover herself out of shame, or for some other negative reason, then I'd be ticked. I wouldn't stand for it, honestly.

I don't get that from this particular story though. I suppose it all depends on whether a woman has a choice and how she looks at the practice to begin with. It really doesn't matter how the rest of us view the wearing of a headscarf. If little Aliya creates some sweet, romantic perception of the Hijab, I don't think it will hurt her at all.

Now, if her father tells her God will not be pleased unless she covers her hair, or men will prey upon her unless she dresses in a potato sack, then yeah...that's very wrong, and that will hurt her. Based on what little we know of him via the article, he does not sound like someone who would do that fortunately.

I'd love to hear more about their marriage, especially since the mother doesn't sound like she converted to Islam.

 

[TashaN]

Pretty depressing stuff, seeing a young girl covering herself because of passive social pressure.
O save me Larry Flynt.

 

[TashaN]

I loved the article.

 

[truthseeker123]

Thanks, Alice.

I was always a little rebellious, even against my own rebellious culture. Like you, I've rejected certain fads. I've embraced only what appeals and makes sense to me, not what appeals to my peers.

I ran across this article unexpectedly while prowling CNN for health stuff. I thought it was a lucky find, as it contained a few issues we've already discussed here on RF:

1) The freedom enjoyed by those who wear the headscarf.

2) This little girl is allowed to choose the headscarf because she lives in a country that encourages freedom of religion and expression.

3) She is part of an interfaith marriage where her parents have decided to raise her with influences from both Mom and Dad, and she is free to choose her own path.

thanks anne , but i think there is on half a story here i dont belive she choose islam without any influence from her father , its a nice story - but you reall dont know the full story do you just what soemone has wrote -it could be true but i doubt it very much - all non muslism know how they recruit unbelives - lies and force as far as i have seen - to me there is more to this story

 

[blackout]

There are lots of things to wear or not to wear.

There are many ways to choose to look/appear.

My oldest daughter was the first in our house to color her hair...
blue.
I learned how to do it for her,
because I could not afford a salon.

Not long after, I did my own hair purple.

Less than a year later my son and my second youngest daughter wanted theirs done.
At the time red... and pink. Later my son went aqua.

We are very diverse. :yes:

Then my youngest was all excited about having her hair colored too.
She wanted 3 colors. That was more work for me.
Eventually we did just orange. Then later cherry bomb red.

Somewhere in the midst of this
my oldest decided to try platnum blonde in with her naturally black hair.
Then finally went back totally to her naturally black color.

I must admit, after all the work of streaking that platnum
I was not entirely happy.
After one last experement with red,
she difinitively decided she just wanted to go back to her
lovely natural black.
You can't even see the difference between the black die
and her own hair.
That's how black her natural color is.

Anyway, I did 'allow' her, to have 'plain' black hair again,
even though the rest of the family
difinitively prefers colorful hair.
(on account of what SHE herself started, and later rejected)

I wonder if anyone will write an article about how tolerant I am?

Oh AND none of the other kids at their school had colored hair.
Mine were the new kids to boot. Came in midyear.
I think it may be that since then (a year later)
two others have joined in the religion of colored hair,
possibly at the inspiration of my own children,
who dared to be different first.

Mine are children who dare to do their own thing
in the face of being even the ONLY ones.
(is that article coming?)

Maybe one day, one of my daughters, or my son...
will come home with a pretty colorful scarf...
and want to wear it....

*can picture son in a scarf*
*chuckles to self*


(surely THEN we will make it into readers digest)

 

[Caladan]

*nods* Oh, I agree in that if my daughter did it because she thought she should cover herself out of shame, or for some other negative reason, then I'd be ticked. I wouldn't stand for it, honestly.

I don't get that from this particular story though. I suppose it all depends on whether a woman has a choice and how she looks at the practice to begin with. It really doesn't matter how the rest of us view the wearing of a headscarf. If little Aliya creates some sweet, romantic perception of the Hijab, I don't think it will hurt her at all.

Now, if her father tells her God will not be pleased unless she covers her hair, or men will prey upon her unless she dresses in a potato sack, then yeah...that's very wrong, and that will hurt her. Based on what little we know of him via the article, he does not sound like someone who would do that fortunately.

I'd love to hear more about their marriage, especially since the mother doesn't sound like she converted to Islam.

Yes her mother's marriage might be an interesting story. however a little girl doesn't just decide to cover herself because of sweetness alone, obviously she is young and perhaps romantically impressioned, but to me, that doesn't take from the tragedy of a young girl deciding to take such measures, she is too young to understand the concept of religious modesty, she is too young to fully understand sexuality and religious toning down of the female sexuality, and she has not yet developed her own female sexuality and matured into it, it just seems wrong to begin exploring it from such a starting point.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Yes her mother's marriage might be an interesting story. however a little girl doesn't just decide to cover herself because of sweetness alone, obviously she is young and perhaps romantically impressioned, but to me, that doesn't take from the tragedy of a young girl deciding to take such measures, she is too young to understand the concept of religious modesty, she is too young to fully understand sexuality and religious toning down of the female sexuality, and she has not yet developed her own female sexuality and matured to it, it just seems wrong to begin exploring it from such a starting point.

It's not how I started. It's not how my daughter started. We dressed radically differently. But between my daughter and Aliya, their wonder at the world around them are remarkably similar.

If Aliya wanted to wear an elephant costume every day, or dye her hair purple (UV, you go girl), or wear a bikini, or wear a hijab, it's her choice. I don't wish to get in the way of her explorations into her body image or cultural identity.

One of my friends from high school is a fashion designer for the various coverings worn in places like Oman (her personal favorite). She makes these veils look FABULOUS. And my girlfriend is rather like me in her own personal style and outlook - although she's taller and a much better graphic artist than I. LOL

I've also seen various African head coverings that are exquisite with long colorful dresses worn by the women. Do they show any skin? Nope, but they're sexually powerful. :yes:

Aliya is very young, as you've stated, but I take heart in her self-confidence. Don't let this break your heart, my dear. A young girl is happy. I find that reason to celebrate.

 

[Caladan]

You know that I always value your opinion Heather, also in this case. so I'm going to have to ask you to appreciate my take as well.

It's not how I started. It's not how my daughter started. We dressed radically differently. But between my daughter and Aliya, their wonder at the world around them are remarkably similar.

I fully realize there is an element of child-like wonder and romanticism around this, and this to me is perhaps one of the greatest misconceptions about the near orient (and perhaps the entire orient), romanticism and not realism.

If Aliya wanted to wear an elephant costume every day, or dye her hair purple (UV, you go girl), or wear a bikini, or wear a hijab, it's her choice. I don't wish to get in the way of her explorations into her body image or cultural identity.

Well this is a thread, and we are talking things out, I'm not her parent, and I'm not going to be the one who would prevent her from it, so I'm not getting in her way, I'm simply openly stating my understaning.

One of my friends from high school is a fashion designer for the various coverings worn in places like Oman (her personal favorite). She makes these veils look FABULOUS. And my girlfriend is rather like me in her own personal style and outlook - although she's taller and a much better graphic artist than I. LOL

I've also seen various African head coverings that are exquisite with long colorful dresses worn by the women. Do they show any skin? Nope, but they're sexually powerful. :yes:

I have no issue with appreciating the power behind such garments, which I'm sure that you would agree with me that at the end of the day is sexual power, the supposed modest dressing is used to empower the female sexuality by many women, because nature will always find a way.
also, I have personal experience with traditional dressings, not only in my own society, but even in my family, my North African grandmother often wears a traditional head covering, and I am glad that the next generations in our North African family have completely abandoned the practice.

Aliya is very young, as you've stated, but I take heart in her self-confidence. Don't let this break your heart, my dear. A young girl is happy. I find that reason to celebrate.

I'm being honest here. perhaps we are taking this to dramatic places, but I simply put myself in the shoes of a father who would want to see his daughter grow without such practices.

 

[*Anne*]

Yes her mother's marriage might be an interesting story. however a little girl doesn't just decide to cover herself because of sweetness alone,

We don't know that. It's possible she just thinks the Hijab is pretty, or that she wants to proudly display a symbol of her father's culture, a man she loves very much. I went through similar phases as a child.

If her dad agreed to not push Islam on her, and to let her make up her own mind as she grows, then I'll bet he isn't shaping her mind about religion and sexuality with the Hijab. Naturally, I don't know this for sure, but it's a bet I'm comfortable with.

 

[*Anne*]

also, I have personal experience with traditional dressings, not only in my own society, but even in my family, my North African grandmother often wears a traditional head covering, and I am glad that the next generations in our North African family have completely abandoned the practice.

I'm glad you mentioned this, as I was going to bring up the thought that your experiences, and thus your perceptions, may be very different from ours.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You know that I always value your opinion Heather, also in this case. so I'm going to have to ask you to appreciate my take as well.



I fully realize there is an element of child-like wonder and romanticism around this, and this to me is perhaps one of the greatest misconceptions about the near orient (and perhaps the entire orient), romanticism and not realism.

*nods* I see. Point taken.

Well this is a thread, and we are talking things out, I'm not her parent, and I'm not going to be the one who would prevent her from it, so I'm not getting in her way, I'm simply openly stating my understaning.


I have no issue with appreciating the power behind such garments, which I'm sure that you would agree with me that at the end of the day is sexual power, the supposed modest dressing is used to empower the female sexuality by many women, because nature will always find a way.
also, I have personal experience with traditional dressings, not only in my own society, but even in my family, my North African grandmother often wears a traditional head covering, and I am glad that the next generations in our North African family have completely abandoned the practice.

I have no doubt that personal experience is influential here, as we all bring that into our perspectives. In principle, I - like you - stand by freedom of choice for women. Granted, it never is that simple, and there must be discussions like what we're having now in order to fully understand how to implement our ideals instead of continuing to talk about the why we must have the freedom for women.

Otherwise, it simply becomes an abstract utopian orgy of "perfect-world-blah-blah-blahs", and we never move past square one. I like being practical, getting my hands dirty, and doing something about it. Part of that is identifying obstacles.

I'm being honest here. perhaps we are taking this to dramatic places, but I simply put myself in the shoes of a father who would want to see his daughter grow without such practices.

You have no argument from me. I'm glad you're speaking up. :hug:

 

[Caladan]

I have no doubt that personal experience is influential here, as we all bring that into our perspectives. In principle, I - like you - stand by freedom of choice for women. Granted, it never is that simple, and there must be discussions like what we're having now in order to fully understand how to implement our ideals instead of continuing to talk about the why we must have the freedom for women.

I agree. and I think discussions like this are what we need. what better chance than discussing such topics with people of the relevant parties.

 

[Rakhel]

Living in New York City, I swear, I have seen it all. Everything from spiked purple mohawks to beautifully colored hajibs. This worn not only among the adults, but the kids as well. Some as young as 10 or younger(kids are looking older these days).

I will say that a lot of what I see is parental influence but not all. I am surrounded by a mostly secular, yet somewhat traditional, society. They left their home countries to come here due to, from what I can tell, a lack of tolerance. So some will not force their cultural beliefs on their kids. Some will allow their children the freedom to make a decision on what they will and will not wear.

Albeit, there are times I cringe at the sight of something some teenager is wearing because I am too modest to wear something like that(daisy dukes, a bikini top, and pink spiked heels, for example).But who am I to say their parents are wrong for allowing freedom of expression.

I remember walking into a Chabad center one day to talk to the rabbi. a 4 yrold little girl came running by with a kippah on her head. I could almost hear her thoughts on the matter. "Daddy wears one, I wanna wear one too." And maybe that is all it is with this little girl. Someone she cares about is wearing a hajib and she decided she wants to wear one too. Either out of curiosity or admiration. Then maybe decided she likes to look and what it represents to her. It may not have anything to with cultural purity or modesty. It is all about what it means to her. Who are you to say she is wrong.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Living in New York City, I swear, I have seen it all. Everything from spiked purple mohawks to beautifully colored hajibs. This worn not only among the adults, but the kids as well. Some as young as 10 or younger(kids are looking older these days).

I will say that a lot of what I see is parental influence but not all. I am surrounded by a mostly secular, yet somewhat traditional, society. They left their home countries to come here due to, from what I can tell, a lack of tolerance. So some will not force their cultural beliefs on their kids. Some will allow their children the freedom to make a decision on what they will and will not wear.

Albeit, there are times I cringe at the sight of something some teenager is wearing because I am too modest to wear something like that(daisy dukes, a bikini top, and pink spiked heels, for example).But who am I to say their parents are wrong for allowing freedom of expression.

I remember walking into a Chabad center one day to talk to the rabbi. a 4 yrold little girl came running by with a kippah on her head. I could almost hear her thoughts on the matter. "Daddy wears one, I wanna wear one too." And maybe that is all it is with this little girl. Someone she cares about is wearing a hajib and she decided she wants to wear one too. Either out of curiosity or admiration. Then maybe decided she likes to look and what it represents to her. It may not have anything to with cultural purity or modesty. It is all about what it means to her. Who are you to say she is wrong.

Sorry to go a bit off-topic. I'm just so enamored with the fact you live in NYC. :bow:

I was in Manhattan for about a year back in '95-'96, 34th Street, between 9th and 10th Avenue. Could look out my window and see.....well....a brick wall (LOL), but if you looked out the front of the building you could see Madison Square Garden. Some of the best times of my life were spent there in New York. I always disagreed with people who say that they love to visit but wouldn't want to live there - I LOVED living there.

Anyhoo, back to your response - I see what you're saying.

 

[Rakhel]

Considering I moved here from Arkansas, it is definitely an eye-opener. I thought I was open minded before I moved here. I have learned a lot.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Considering I moved here from Arkansas, it is definitely an eye-opener. I thought I was open minded before I moved here. I have learned a lot.

I moved there from southern Illinois. I here ya. :yes:

I'm back where I started from, but you're right. NYC is the best kind of culture shock you could ask for. Glad to see you doing well there....you instantly have street cred wherever you go now.

"I fought in WWII."
"So what? I live in New York."

 

[Caladan]

Who are you to say she is wrong.

1.Who are you talking about.
2. She's too young to be held to be 'in the wrong'. further more we aren't really discussing about wrong or right, we are discussing far more bigger issues, which include sexuality, religious modesty, passive social pressure, etc.
3. I hope you're not implying that people should keep their opinions to themselves.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm back where I started from, but you're right. NYC is the best kind of culture shock you could ask for. Glad to see you doing well there....you instantly have street cred wherever you go now.

That is, until you start using terms like "street cred."

 

[Rakhel]

1.Who are you talking about.
2. She's too young to be held to be 'in the wrong'. further more we aren't really discussing about wrong or right, we are discussing far more bigger issues, which include sexuality, religious modesty, passive social pressure, etc.
3. I hope you're not implying that people should keep their opinions to themselves.

caladan
Your "bigger picture" is not her "bigger picture." Yes, your "bigger picture" is sexual oppression and religious modesty and whatever else you think it is. Hers, however, is not Hers is: "I like it." "It makes me feel comfortable." "I don't look like everyone else. Cool!!" Besides, this maybe just a phase for her.
And, no, I am not saying you or anyone else should keep your opinions to yourself. I just happen to be expressing my own.
Problems?

 

[Caladan]

Problems?

My only problem is that you imply other people are in the wrong for expressing their take. Problem?