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Bill Gates: "Private Sector [Research and Development] is in General Inept"

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
So let see if I have it right "mandatory" spending is not a "budgeted" item, it does not require Congressional approval; whereas "discretionary" is spending that has to be approved by Congress.
No. Mandatory means that the USSC has held that certain kinds of federal spending are promises by the government to provide certain goods and services directly to citizens, and MUST be made regardless of budget situation, as they are a contractual promise of the government. Congress and the President can do very little to affect this in the short term. For the most part mandatory spending comes from the trust funds, such as social security and medicare, for which there are specific taxes generating funds to pay for these goods and services.

Discretionary spending means that the court has ruled that spending on these items are cuttable, including such things as national defense and many other programs, as they are not viewed as contractual promises to the people, and Congress can approve whatever budget and appropriations bills it wants (it usually largely or completely rejects the President's proposed budget, and builds its own), and the Administration can change some of that. These "federal funds" come from the income (individual and corporate) and a number of other taxes and fees and are also referred to as "general revenues."

All revenue and spending for both kinds is "on budget." The Bush/Cheney promise that the Gulf War was going to be "off budget" was nonsense that they should have been called on from the word go--I remember that some did, but in the aftermath of 9-11, very few people seemed to be interested. The SS and Medicate and other trust fund taxes for the most part have resulted in surpluses that are meant to cover future spending...but of course, Congress has repeatedly raided--"borrowed"--from these funds over the years, and for the most part has not paid it back. On the other hand, in most years, Congress spends more on the rest of the programs than it takes in in taxes. THAT is where most of the deficit spending--and therefore the debt--comes from.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
Gets kind of tiring reading the same tired comment over and over and over.


No, not everyone pays federal income tax , only those that work. Of those, 45% get back all they paid in(not counting FICA taxes) and in some instance more than they paid in. Also there is a percentage that get a federal tax refund even if they do not work.
Everyone pays taxes. And no, people don't get all their taxes back. Let's use an example.

$10 per hour job times 40 hours/week = $400 = $1600 per month = $19,200 per year

20% income tax on $19,200 = $3840 per year

Do you really think people are getting a check for $4000 back after filing taxes?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
So, you have decided to change the subject since you can't argue with the facts. Very typical for those that use opinion vice facts for their argument. Remember I was answering your statement "
I'm not changing the subject, but addressing it, and offering a rebuttal. The wealthiest 20% control most of the wealth, so why wouldn't they be paying more overall in taxes, especially when the middle class is in decline?
Now I provided you with the answer to that question. But since it seems to fly in opposition to your "opinion"(?) you have decided to attempt to take the discussion in a different direction. I'm not playing.
All I stated is that the number given is suspicious because everyone who has "normal" employment (meaning taxes are taken out in the normal way rather than something like under the table), they pay taxes, and they pay federal taxes on their income. And unless they are really poor, then may get a small chunk back as a return for over-estimations on what they owed. It's not like the government is saying "here, take this money," they are more like a cashier saying "sorry, I scanned the same item twice and here's your money back."
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Everyone pays taxes. And no, people don't get all their taxes back. Let's use an example.

$10 per hour job times 40 hours/week = $400 = $1600 per month = $19,200 per year

20% income tax on $19,200 = $3840 per year

Do you really think people are getting a check for $4000 back after filing taxes?
again either you failed to read the article I provided or you did and find that you are mistaken and try a old ploy. Look a squirrel
here it is again http://www.marketwatch.com/story/45-of-americans-pay-no-federal-income-tax-2016-02-24
 

esmith

Veteran Member
I'm not changing the subject, but addressing it, and offering a rebuttal. The wealthiest 20% control most of the wealth, so why wouldn't they be paying more overall in taxes, especially when the middle class is in decline?

All I stated is that the number given is suspicious because everyone who has "normal" employment (meaning taxes are taken out in the normal way rather than something like under the table), they pay taxes, and they pay federal taxes on their income. And unless they are really poor, then may get a small chunk back as a return for over-estimations on what they owed. It's not like the government is saying "here, take this money," they are more like a cashier saying "sorry, I scanned the same item twice and here's your money back."
did you even read the article http://www.marketwatch.com/story/45-of-americans-pay-no-federal-income-tax-2016-02-24

more data http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/mode...ome-tax/tax-units-zero-or-negative-income-tax
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Yes, I read them. Are to address my point that of course the top $20 percent are going to be paying a higher overall percentage of the taxes coming in because they themselves control a disproportionate amount of wealth. It's also an issue that our tax code doesn't really address the difference between millionaire and billionaire, so you end up with the lower end up this tax paying group paying a disproportionate amount compared to those who are far wealthier.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
again either you failed to read the article I provided or you did and find that you are mistaken and try a old ploy. Look a squirrel
here it is again http://www.marketwatch.com/story/45-of-americans-pay-no-federal-income-tax-2016-02-24
Some people make too little money as to be burdened with additional out-of-pocket reasons. A good way to alleviate this is to raise the minimum wage.

Raising the minimum wage (democratic policy) will benefit America in these ways.

-More tax revenue
-Less public assistance
-Less crime
-Boost in the economy
-More jobs

There are other benefits, but you get the point. Republicans don't like that policy because they have a capitalistic mindset. Profit is #1. So of course they don't want to lose some profits paying people more money. Additionally, when republicans tell you that the reason companies move overseas is to avoid taxes, they're lying. The main reason is to exploit low wages (which saves a lot more money than taxes). Remember, profit is the #1 rule
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Some people make too little money as to be burdened with additional out-of-pocket reasons. A good way to alleviate this is to raise the minimum wage.

Raising the minimum wage (democratic policy) will benefit America in these ways.

-More tax revenue
-Less public assistance
-Less crime
-Boost in the economy
-More jobs

There are other benefits, but you get the point. Republicans don't like that policy because they have a capitalistic mindset. Profit is #1. So of course they don't want to lose some profits paying people more money. Additionally, when republicans tell you that the reason companies move overseas is to avoid taxes, they're lying. The main reason is to exploit low wages (which saves a lot more money than taxes). Remember, profit is the #1 rule
Oh look a squirrel
 
This is not quite accurate.
While Bush (2001-2009) signed a bill which lowered marginal rates slightly, there were other changes which offset this.
Tax revenue actually increased under Bush.

From.....
http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/total_chart_gallery

We find the net effect of all changes in the tax code....
total_chart_total_revenue.png


One might argue that the increase is due to economic growth,
but the revenue gains exceed this for most years (01-09).
Ref....
http://www.multpl.com/us-gdp-growth-rate/table/by-year

Too few people realize that tax rates are only part of the story about how much we pay.
There are many other factors, eg, what is deductable, audit practices.
More people should be in business.....then they'd know.
To us fans of small government, Bush was a disaster.
Sorry I'm not following how those data demonstrate that tax revenue went up during the Bush years due to changing what is deductible and audit practices etc., rather than economic growth etc. Can you explain or provide a link that does?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Sorry I'm not following how those data demonstrate that tax revenue went up during the Bush years due to changing what is deductible and audit practices etc., rather than economic growth etc. Can you explain or provide a link that does?
I don't have a link stating my claim.....just the links I offer as evidence.
We see that revenue increased more than economic growth.
What else would explain this in a time of lower tax rates?

I became aware of Bush's mitigating the tax rate cuts way back when
they arrived. My CPA & I discovered that other changes (eg, more
aggressive audits) came along for the ride. This explains the revenue
increases during his reign.
Oddly in these days of higher tax rates, the IRS no longer audits me.
(I've read that they've lost manpower.)
 
I don't have a link stating my claim.....just the links I offer as evidence.
We see that revenue increased more than economic growth.
What else would explain this in a time of lower tax rates?
Lots of things? I don't think you can simply compare tax revenue and YoY GDP growth qualitatively in those years, and draw definitive conclusions. Tax revenue was flat from 2001 - 2003 for example even though GDP was growing; in 2008 GDP contracted by less than 1% and yet tax revenue fell by ~45%, back to 2001 levels.

Tax revenue as a % of GDP seems more pertinent and I do not see a consistent trend upward during the Bush years:
Federal_individual_income_tax_receipts_2000-2009.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_tax_cuts

For some reason, it seems taxes as a % of GDP went down during Bush's first term from a historical peak to a historical low. Is that because Bush instructed the IRS to conduct fewer audits on Revoltingest and allow more deductions during those years? I don't know. After the second round of Bush tax cuts were passed in 2003, taxes as a % of GDP increased - but one could argue that was simply regressing to the historical average after a historical lowpoint. At the same time, GDP was growing at nearly 6.5% for three straight years. Given our progressive system of taxation, one might expect tax revenue (without increasing tax rates) to grow somewhat faster than that (and to plummet faster than GDP shrinks - as it did in 2008). So it's unclear (to me at least) that the factors which lead to increasing tax revenue in dollar terms can be considered a tax hike. When I look at Bush's 8 years what seems evident is that he cut tax rates. The increasing tax revenues appear to be driven by GDP going up, and taxes as a % of GDP fluctuating both up and down.

I became aware of Bush's mitigating the tax rate cuts way back when
they arrived. My CPA & I discovered that other changes (eg, more
aggressive audits) came along for the ride. This explains the revenue
increases during his reign.
Oddly in these days of higher tax rates, the IRS no longer audits me.
(I've read that they've lost manpower.)
Maybe but, that's your personal experience, it may not accurately reflect the overall trend.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Lots of things? I don't think you can simply compare tax revenue and YoY GDP growth qualitatively in those years, and draw definitive conclusions. Tax revenue was flat from 2001 - 2003 for example even though GDP was growing; in 2008 GDP contracted by less than 1% and yet tax revenue fell by ~45%, back to 2001 levels.

Tax revenue as a % of GDP seems more pertinent and I do not see a consistent trend upward during the Bush years:
Federal_individual_income_tax_receipts_2000-2009.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_tax_cuts

For some reason, it seems taxes as a % of GDP went down during Bush's first term from a historical peak to a historical low. Is that because Bush instructed the IRS to conduct fewer audits on Revoltingest and allow more deductions during those years? I don't know. After the second round of Bush tax cuts were passed in 2003, taxes as a % of GDP increased - but one could argue that was simply regressing to the historical average after a historical lowpoint. At the same time, GDP was growing at nearly 6.5% for three straight years. Given our progressive system of taxation, one might expect tax revenue (without increasing tax rates) to grow somewhat faster than that (and to plummet faster than GDP shrinks - as it did in 2008). So it's unclear (to me at least) that the factors which lead to increasing tax revenue in dollar terms can be considered a tax hike. When I look at Bush's 8 years what seems evident is that he cut tax rates. The increasing tax revenues appear to be driven by GDP going up, and taxes as a % of GDP fluctuating both up and down.

Maybe but, that's your personal experience, it may not accurately reflect the overall trend.
I notice that your chart is for individuals.
Perhaps the discrepancy between your analysis & what I see is due to my looking at total revenue, which would include other (corporate) income taxes.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
As I stated, you can't whine about the debt yet be in support of more defense spending. Republicans will lie all day long about how the defense is broken, old, outdated, needing money, not ready, weak, etc. All lies. Republicans need to convince people to give more government welfare to the MIC.

According to various Military source I follow the following is only the tip of the iceberg. The military is hurting for items to meet their commitments including the all important aspect of training
http://www.military.com/daily-news/...cannibalized-parts.html?ESRC=navy-a_160601.nl
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
According to various Military source I follow the following is only the tip of the iceberg. The military is hurting for items to meet their commitments including the all important aspect of training
http://www.military.com/daily-news/...cannibalized-parts.html?ESRC=navy-a_160601.nl
And you blame Obama? Democrats would have the attitude that the military is underpaid and we need to cut a destroyer or 2 from the budget to increase their pay. Republicans would be against that.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
And you blame Obama? Democrats would have the attitude that the military is underpaid and we need to cut a destroyer or 2 from the budget to increase their pay. Republicans would be against that.
I really don't have a clue how to answer your above statement that would remain within the forum rules, so I'll just go with this.:
Guess you really don't have a clue about the military do you. Suggest you stick to your political world and forget about the military.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
I really don't have a clue how to answer your above statement that would remain within the forum rules, so I'll just go with this.:
Guess you really don't have a clue about the military do you. Suggest you stick to your political world and forget about the military.
I know plenty. I'm sorry that you think the military is overpaid, the reality is that they are not. My point stands
 

esmith

Veteran Member
I know plenty. I'm sorry that you think the military is overpaid, the reality is that they are not. My point stands
But you comment "we need to cut a destroyer or 2 from the budget" shows that you, to be blunt, know squat about what requirements are needed within the military.
Don't know where you got the stupid idea that I think the military is overpaid; as a retired member of the military I know that they are underpaid
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
But you comment "we need to cut a destroyer or 2 from the budget" shows that you, to be blunt, know squat about what requirements are needed within the military.
Don't know where you got the stupid idea that I think the military is overpaid; as a retired member of the military I know that they are underpaid
So you're telling me we need more destroyers and cutting any from the budget would be a bad thing? Next you're going to tell me that Obama has decimated the military. RW propaganda is powerful. A lot of corporations in the military industry spend a lot of money buying representatives in congress, they need their government welfare.
 
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