Billy Bragg - Rich Men Earning North of a Million

[ImmortalFlame]

Um, those things are the same with or without a union. The law requires employers with over 50 employees to offer healthcare with or without any union. Similarly there are laws about overtime pay. Furthermore there are other institutions that negotiate for employees besides unions such as professional organizations.

While this may be true (in some states, at least, can't speak for all), most studies I have read indicate a direct correlation between unionization and improvements in all of those areas.

Unions are not only good for workers, they’re good for communities and for democracy: High unionization levels are associated with positive outcomes across multiple indicators of economic, personal, and democratic well-being

In this report, we document the correlation between higher levels of unionization in states and a range of economic, personal, and democratic well-being measures. In the same way unions give workers a voice at work, with a direct impact on wages and working conditions, the data suggest that...

www.epi.org

https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/f46bc621-abb1-4cb9-9523-27029254e47b/union-issue-brief-final-final.pdf

Unions represent a mere 11% of employees and declining. Shrinking union membership indicates that people don't want them.

Or, it could indicate that unions are disincentivised by huge businesses, and the anti-union sentiment that they tend to ferment.

 

[Revoltingest]

Unions (like employers) are self-serving.
Competition & negotiation yield results that could be good or bad.
An example of bad....

How Police Unions Enable and Conceal Abuses of Power

Some labor leaders are pushing to expel police unions if they don’t reform.

www.newyorker.com

Police Unions: Obstacles to Criminal Justice Reform and Police Accountability | Criminal Legal News

Unionized cops are more likely to have
a higher right of abuse complaints.

https://www.congress.gov/116/meeting/house/110815/documents/HMKP-116-JU00-20200617-SD013.pdf

So to be a force for good (instead of bad),
unions must be kept from getting too much
power & unaccountability.

 

[fantome profane]

Unions (like employers) are self-serving.
Competition & negotiation yield results that could be good or bad.
An example of bad....

How Police Unions Enable and Conceal Abuses of Power

Some labor leaders are pushing to expel police unions if they don’t reform.

www.newyorker.com

Police Unions: Obstacles to Criminal Justice Reform and Police Accountability | Criminal Legal News

Unionized cops are more likely to have
a higher right of abuse complaints.

I think the police union is a unique situation. Most unions do not regularly defend their members in for shooting someone.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Unions (like employers) are self-serving.
Competition & negotiation yield results that could be good or bad.
An example of bad....

How Police Unions Enable and Conceal Abuses of Power

Some labor leaders are pushing to expel police unions if they don’t reform.

www.newyorker.com

Police Unions: Obstacles to Criminal Justice Reform and Police Accountability | Criminal Legal News

Unionized cops are more likely to have
a higher right of abuse complaints.

https://www.congress.gov/116/meeting/house/110815/documents/HMKP-116-JU00-20200617-SD013.pdf

So to be a force for good (instead of bad),
unions must be kept from getting too much
power & unaccountability.

Oh, police unions might somehow be even worse than police in general.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think the police union is a unique situation. Most unions do not regularly defend their members in for shooting someone.

They defend members for whatever infractions are common,
eg, theft. And cops do more than just shoot people.
There are also false arrest, assault, perjury, insults, etc.
The point...
Unions are there for themselves, not whom they labor for.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Oh God not Billy Bragg. He’s been a terrible bore for about 30 years, with his adolescent political views and whining lyrics.

I have no time for that guy whatsoever.

What's wrong with his political views? I first heard of him a few days ago, but I looked up his political history and found nothing that differed drastically from mainstream leftist views.

That was just a quick search, though, so I could be missing something.

 

[Yerda]

Oh God not Billy Bragg. He’s been a terrible bore for about 30 years, with his adolescent political views and whining lyrics.

I have no time for that guy whatsoever.

Adolescent? Like join a union?

 

[RestlessSoul]

All power to Billy’s elbow, says I. A man who stayed true to his principles for a lot of decades now, and a half decent songwriter to boot…

 

[exchemist]

Adolescent? Like join a union?

Like the facile crap about “wanna keep the working folk down”. That bears no relation to how most employers function. It’s just an appeal to a sort of thoughtless knee-jerk political tribalism.

 

[Revoltingest]

What's wrong with his political views?

You answered your own question.
See below.

I first heard of him a few days ago, but I looked up his political history and found nothing that differed drastically from mainstream leftist views.

 

[Revoltingest]

Like the facile crap about “wanna keep the working folk down”. That bears no relation to how most employers function. It’s just an appeal to a sort of thoughtless knee-jerk political tribalism.

It's an effective line for people who want to see
themselves as victims of something other than
their own decisions & abilities.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You answered your own question.
See below.

That doesn't really answer the question, no. Maybe from just one perspective, but that's about it.

 

[Revoltingest]

That doesn't really answer the question, no. Maybe from just one perspective, but that's about it.

It was a joke, ie, being on the left is what's wrong with his views.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It was a joke, ie, being on the left is what's wrong.

I see much that I agree with on both the "left" and "right" wings (using quotations because of the region-specific relativity of these descriptors) of British politics, and also much that I disagree with. Currently, I find it much more thoughtful than its American counterpart, although it has had its fair share of hiccups too.

 

[Friend of Mara]

Unions are not a panacea, many of them are quite terrible. Class warfare is a deleterious and pernicious thing. Wealth envy is a bitter evil.

Second only to the actual evil of wealth inequality and poverty people actually face.

 

[Shaul]

Second only to the actual evil of wealth inequality and poverty people actually face.

No, the envy of wealth is far more evil than wealth inequality. Wealth inequality itself is morally neutral, not evil. "I don't want more wealth because it would make my wealth more unequal to others" is something no one ever said. Poverty is a temporal state and a consequence of choices. Poverty isn't a causation, it is a result.

 

[Friend of Mara]

No, the envy of wealth is far more evil than wealth inequality. Wealth inequality itself is morally neutral, not evil. "I don't want more wealth because it would make my wealth more unequal to others" is something no one ever said. Poverty is a temporal state and a consequence of choices. Poverty isn't a causation, it is a result.

Poverty isn't the causation. Its the result of evil acts. The wealth inequality wasn't created by those at the bottom. That is definitive and if you ever want to debate that I'm more than welcome too.


But real people deal with real problems all the time that are intrinsically linked to their economic situation in ways well beyond their control. Some "eww poor people are mad we don't pay them enough" pissing and wining doesn't get to trump people suffering and dying.