Birthright Exceptions To The 14th Amendment Is Fundamentally Un-American

[Neo-Logic]

James Madison it's hard to say. I'm always amused when people say comments like that since the individual's are obviously not able to defend themselves on the issue. James Madison didn't even believe in having a Bill of Rights and was all for a federal government with no checks and balances like that. He argued in his writings to Jefferson (his mentor) that he thought the fed government would never get too powerful. Of course that is all depending on one's definition of "too powerful."

Guessing original intent does have problems, especially if one uses their supposed intents as a premise for their argument. But we can get a general sense of their understanding and the spirit in which they crafted the constitution through their letters, personal memoirs, and official essays like the Federalist Papers. It's not so hard if we try and read between the lines.

The U.S. Supreme Court case from 1941 with the Chinese man proved other wise. In the 14th amendment it mentions nothing about an individual's parents status. When the Chinese man's parents went back to China the Supreme Court said he could stay since he was a citizen since he was born here. His parents had nothing to do with him.

Oh gosh, there's something I find absolutely hilarious every time I read you write "the case from 1941 with the Chinese man".

On a serious note ... I know this is a contentious topic, but maybe if you ratchet down the attitude a bit and approach your rebuttals with more tact or less hostility or discussions of your intelligence, people will take your posts seriously. I know I would.

 

[Neo-Logic]

Doesn't the child have to be 21, or something, to get his or her parents citizenship? I remember Colbert doing a segment on it.

Sure does! 21's that magical age for all the cool adult rights, like alcohol, strip clubs, car rentals, and bringing your illegal parents who forded the Rio Grande at midnight to bring your little ungrateful fetus self into the land of the free all so you can 'anchor' them to the promise land 21 years later -- assuming you're not too busy boozing it up in a strip joint on your 21st birthday.

 

[Neo-Logic]

The 14th amendment is not as simple as you think.

Are you talking to me? :help:

 

[Rakhel]

Little pinky said something about the 14th amendment being simple. It isn't. The rights of citizenship is only one part of it and if you read the one site with all the annotations, you will see how "simple" it is.

 

[Kathryn]

Guessing original intent does have problems, especially if one uses their supposed intents as a premise for their argument. But we can get a general sense of their understanding and the spirit in which they crafted the constitution through their letters, personal memoirs, and official essays like the Federalist Papers. It's not so hard if we try and read between the lines.



Oh gosh, there's something I find absolutely hilarious every time I read you write "the case from 1941 with the Chinese man".

On a serious note ... I know this is a contentious topic, but maybe if you ratchet down the attitude a bit and approach your rebuttals with more tact or less hostility or discussions of your intelligence, people will take your posts seriously. I know I would.

Amen to all of the above.

 

[bybee]

Certain politicians and the extreme right-wing are proposing to amend the 14th Amendment to make exceptions to deny birthright citizenships to the children of illegal immigrants. The apparent irony is that they promote this idea as something American and patriotic. This couldn't be further from the truth.

The fact is that any serious discussions of denying birthright citizenship to anyone born in American territories is fundamentally un-American, in so far as the American spirit that is embodied in the tenor and rhetorics of the Constitution is concerned.

Our Constitution is vague and ambiguous on many matters. However, it is unequivocally clear on at least the one fundamental American ideal: that the sins of the father shall not pass onto the son -- or the idea of individual responsibility and individual guilt in crime and punishment.

The clearest indication of this exists in Article 3 of the Constitution which states "The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

The treason clause states, without reservation or ambiguity, that punishment shall not work the corruption of blood -- that is to say the guilt of father shall not pass onto the successive generations -- and that punishment is limited to the 'life of the person'.

Yet, the denial of a general birthright citizenship to the children born in America because of the crime of their parent's illegal actions is exactly that -- corruption of blood.

It really is as simple as that; guilt in America is individualistic.

Sooooo, you believe that the founding fathers wished to reward illegal activity?

 

[Kathryn]

I'd just like to add something - when I stated that there is a huge difference between tourists who come here and have a baby early and illegal immigrants who crowd 100 to an un airconditioned 18 wheeler or walk 30 miles across the desert wearing flip-flops, I did not mean that derisively.

This is honestly how so many of these illegal immigrants DO get here. I didn't say it to make fun of them. I said it to showcase the difference between a "tourist" and an illegal immigrant. One has no intention of staying here past their vacation schedule, and the other has literally risked their life to move here permanently. One probably flew here on a plane and is staying at a hotel, eating out, and driving a rental car, and the other is hot, thirsty, scared, and literally in imminent danger during their trek to get here.

I just couldn't believe the comparison of a pregnant, illegal alien to a tourist. I was showcasing the disparity between the two examples - not making fun of illegal immigrants.

I have been to the Texas/Mexico border and literally seen immigrants running across the scrubby, hot, dusty landscape in 100 degree heat - wearing flip flops by the way, and carrying all their earthly belongings in a plastic shopping bag - ducking behind a bush when they realized they had been seen. I think their plight is pitiful, and I want to HELP them gain LEGAL and documented entry into the United States. If for some reason they can't be cleared to be here - they probably shouldn't be here.

But the process needs to be eased.

By the way, Little Pinky, your kneejerk assumption that my statement about so many immigrants come here across the desert wearing flipflops or packed into an 18 wheeler is based in PREJUDICE is judgmental and prejudiced itself. What I said was accurate and unfortunately TRUE. Sometimes the truth is inconvenient and politically incorrect.

I live in an area whose population is approximately 20-25 percent here illegally. So yes - I know a lot of immigrants, legal and otherwise. What you don't know is that nearly every Saturday, my husband and I go to a local Mexican restaurant, where we are usually the only "gringos" there. We are also usually the only people speaking English. We are friends with a couple whose sister owns the restaurant. We're pretty sure she and nearly all the workers there are not here legally. Anyway, we often meet the Hispanic couple there who are our friends and eat lunch together. We discuss this topic of illegal immigration with them often, and they know our views. They also know that if any family member of theirs needs money we will find them work, even if it's cleaning our house or yard or working side by side with us on some sort of project. They know we will pay them well. When we moved, we gave their families all sorts of furniture, clothing, and household goods. We went up to the restaurant and asked them if anyone in their family needed anything, and a group of them came out to the house and took nearly everything that we were going to give away.

My husband has found legal work for nearly every family member of theirs who could get a work visa or resident card. He also contracted the sister to cater large events at his company - he could do that in spite of her illegal status because she wasn't
hired as an employee. The family members who are legally here bank with me. I know they are also managing accounts for members of their family who are not here legally. I often sit down with them and give them advice on US banking, which is a new experience for them.

This family has made it clear to all their extended family and friends that my husband and I can be trusted to help them in any way that we can, and that we are sensitive to their challenges and "on their side." Nearly every time we go up to the restaurant, we receive an invitation to a wedding, a quincinero, a graduation or some local event in the Hispanic community. Heck, I even STARTED UP the first Hispanic Lions Club chapter in East Texas, and one of the main goals of this chapter is to provide outreach and help to local Hispanic families, many of whom are here illegally.

I also volunteer my time to lead financial workshops for the local Literacy Council's English classes - which are made up of nearly all Hispanic people, some of whom are definitely not here legally. My personal goal is to help them get on their feet within our society - I feel that if they can do that, they can pursue their legal status more easily.

So don't throw charges of discrimination and insensitivity at me when you clearly do not know what the hell you are talking about. Your assumptions are way off target.

 

[Rakhel]

A small joke my college Spanish instructor told us. (She is not Hispanic but her husband is)

My husband once said. I don't know why they call us wetbacks. They should have called us wet-ankles We didn't swim across the Rio Grande, we walked where it was only ankle deep.

 

[LittlePinky82]

Sigh. I guess I am going to have to wade through a sea of sarcasm in search of some actual ISSUE to discuss with you. Honestly, your dripping sarcasm is really tiresome - and detracts from what could be some real discussion points. I'm not going to continue to interact with you if this is going to be your perpetual style. Of course - you may not care, and that's OK too. I'll base my decision on your next responses if you choose to make any. If they're as sarcastic as the last few, I'm not going to stoop to that level.

A little bit is fine - but when nearly every sentence is vitriolic, the impact is lessened and the tone becomes, well, simply inflammatory and sophomoric.

I'm not going to do anything but sarcasm if it's something that is worthy of it it. And I honestly don't care. You just are hypocritical. You talk about not demonizing you while going a head and doing it to other people. Please don't tell other people how to post. That's insulting and pathetic. If you can't deal with it oh well. Not my problem. I'd rather be sarcastic than disgusting.

 

[LittlePinky82]

I think they would likewise be proud that their experiment in pluralism has held up this well and is able to withstand even these stupid-little-blips without much of a hiccup, as I predict will be the case with this nonsense discussion by the extreme right.

Lol people are aware that they weren't around for the 14th amendment right?

 

[LittlePinky82]

Guessing original intent does have problems, especially if one uses their supposed intents as a premise for their argument. But we can get a general sense of their understanding and the spirit in which they crafted the constitution through their letters, personal memoirs, and official essays like the Federalist Papers. It's not so hard if we try and read between the lines.

And especially if they weren't around when the amendment was created and when they were around they didn't have any sort of immigration policy. If you stepped foot on U.S. soil that was it.

Oh gosh, there's something I find absolutely hilarious every time I read you write "the case from 1941 with the Chinese man".

Your point?

On a serious note ... I know this is a contentious topic, but maybe if you ratchet down the attitude a bit and approach your rebuttals with more tact or less hostility or discussions of your intelligence, people will take your posts seriously. I know I would.

I really don't care. I'm going to post how I post. If people don't like it they can deal with it or get a hobby.

 

[LittlePinky82]

I'd just like to add something - when I stated that there is a huge difference between tourists who come here and have a baby early and illegal immigrants who crowd 100 to an un airconditioned 18 wheeler or walk 30 miles across the desert wearing flip-flops, I did not mean that derisively.

You were still degrading and demonizing to people and stereotyping.

This is honestly how so many of these illegal immigrants DO get here. I didn't say it to make fun of them. I said it to showcase the difference between a "tourist" and an illegal immigrant. One has no intention of staying here past their vacation schedule, and the other has literally risked their life to move here permanently. One probably flew here on a plane and is staying at a hotel, eating out, and driving a rental car, and the other is hot, thirsty, scared, and literally in imminent danger during their trek to get here.

How do you know? Yes you are making fun of them. You don't know every individual who comes here and what their life is about etc. And you're still happy to stereotype people.

I just couldn't believe the comparison of a pregnant, illegal alien to a tourist. I was showcasing the disparity between the two examples - not making fun of illegal immigrants.

No you're doing something worse than making fun of them. You're demonizing them. Fellow human beings. I remember there was a Senate case I think earlier this year or late last yr. It was on CSPAN and I watched it live so I don't remember what it was called. This woman came here to the U.S. when she was young because in her home country this guy killed her whole family. She somehow survived and was sent here for refugee. People did her papers, since she was a young child, and she went through her whole life being here. She is now a gay married woman with two children and is very involved in her community. It turned out she was here illegally all this time because people messed up her papers. Now she was being threatened on being sent back to her home country. The guy who killed her family was making threats against her. You'd want to send her back?

And I was listening to a liberal radio show not too long ago and a woman called in saying she knew a Chinese couple where the woman was a legal citizen and the man just never became one for some reason. They were both very involved in their communities and the wife was a professor. She got a job offer on the East coast (they lived in California). The man went back to China for a visit because they still had some property there and needed to take care of things and they weren't letting him back into the country. So now their lives are all messed up.

I have been to the Texas/Mexico border and literally seen immigrants running across the scrubby, hot, dusty landscape in 100 degree heat - wearing flip flops by the way, and carrying all their earthly belongings in a plastic shopping bag - ducking behind a bush when they realized they had been seen. I think their plight is pitiful, and I want to HELP them gain LEGAL and documented entry into the United States. If for some reason they can't be cleared to be here - they probably shouldn't be here.

Yeah because you know every immigrant in this country. Right?

But the process needs to be eased.

By the way, Little Pinky, your kneejerk assumption that my statement about so many immigrants come here across the desert wearing flipflops or packed into an 18 wheeler is based in PREJUDICE is judgmental and prejudiced itself. What I said was accurate and unfortunately TRUE. Sometimes the truth is inconvenient and politically incorrect.

Lol oh please. It's YOUR words. Not mine. If you're saying that what do you expect people to react? What about immigrants from other countries? You do know not everyone is from Mexico or comes across that border right? And sometimes your "truth" is nothing more than stereotypes or out right racism.

I live in an area whose population is approximately 20-25 percent here illegally. So yes - I know a lot of immigrants, legal and otherwise. What you don't know is that nearly every Saturday, my husband and I go to a local Mexican restaurant, where we are usually the only "gringos" there. We are also usually the only people speaking English. We are friends with a couple whose sister owns the restaurant. We're pretty sure she and nearly all the workers there are not here legally. Anyway, we often meet the Hispanic couple there who are our friends and eat lunch together. We discuss this topic of illegal immigration with them often, and they know our views. They also know that if any family member of theirs needs money we will find them work, even if it's cleaning our house or yard or working side by side with us on some sort of project. They know we will pay them well. When we moved, we gave their families all sorts of furniture, clothing, and household goods. We went up to the restaurant and asked them if anyone in their family needed anything, and a group of them came out to the house and took nearly everything that we were going to give away.

And? That means what to me? You still post disgusting comments about immigrants and stereotypes while claiming to be friends with them. I seriously hope you don't speak to them with the mouth you use here.

My husband has found legal work for nearly every family member of theirs who could get a work visa or resident card. He also contracted the sister to cater large events at his company - he could do that in spite of her illegal status because she wasn't
hired as an employee. The family members who are legally here bank with me. I know they are also managing accounts for members of their family who are not here legally. I often sit down with them and give them advice on US banking, which is a new experience for them.

What? Do you want the Nobel peace prize? You still have disgusting comments.

This family has made it clear to all their extended family and friends that my husband and I can be trusted to help them in any way that we can, and that we are sensitive to their challenges and "on their side." Nearly every time we go up to the restaurant, we receive an invitation to a wedding, a quincinero, a graduation or some local event in the Hispanic community. Heck, I even STARTED UP the first Hispanic Lions Club chapter in East Texas, and one of the main goals of this chapter is to provide outreach and help to local Hispanic families, many of whom are here illegally.

While still making disgusting and stereotypical comments about them. Some friend you are. With friends like that who needs enemies?

I also volunteer my time to lead financial workshops for the local Literacy Council's English classes - which are made up of nearly all Hispanic people, some of whom are definitely not here legally. My personal goal is to help them get on their feet within our society - I feel that if they can do that, they can pursue their legal status more easily.

While still wanting to deport them.

So don't throw charges of discrimination and insensitivity at me when you clearly do not know what the hell you are talking about. Your assumptions are way off target.

Going by your own words here. Maybe you should be telling yourself that and changing your stereotyping and demonizing of immigrants who don't come here as you want them to. Sorry but not everyone lives according to your wishes.

 

[LittlePinky82]

Sooooo, you believe that the founding fathers wished to reward illegal activity?

Back in the day of the founders you know what immigration was? Stepping foot on the land and you were a citizen. Period. There was no immigration policy. And don't forget all the killing of the Natives at the time. So guess what? Those immigrants were the undocumented immigrants.

 

[Kathryn]

You were still degrading and demonizing to people and stereotyping.

How do you know? Yes you are making fun of them. You don't know every individual who comes here and what their life is about etc. And you're still happy to stereotype people.

No you're doing something worse than making fun of them. You're demonizing them. Fellow human beings. I remember there was a Senate case I think earlier this year or late last yr. It was on CSPAN and I watched it live so I don't remember what it was called. This woman came here to the U.S. when she was young because in her home country this guy killed her whole family. She somehow survived and was sent here for refugee. People did her papers, since she was a young child, and she went through her whole life being here. She is now a gay married woman with two children and is very involved in her community. It turned out she was here illegally all this time because people messed up her papers. Now she was being threatened on being sent back to her home country. The guy who killed her family was making threats against her. You'd want to send her back?

And I was listening to a liberal radio show not too long ago and a woman called in saying she knew a Chinese couple where the woman was a legal citizen and the man just never became one for some reason. They were both very involved in their communities and the wife was a professor. She got a job offer on the East coast (they lived in California). The man went back to China for a visit because they still had some property there and needed to take care of things and they weren't letting him back into the country. So now their lives are all messed up.

Yeah because you know every immigrant in this country. Right?

Lol oh please. It's YOUR words. Not mine. If you're saying that what do you expect people to react? What about immigrants from other countries? You do know not everyone is from Mexico or comes across that border right? And sometimes your "truth" is nothing more than stereotypes or out right racism.

And? That means what to me? You still post disgusting comments about immigrants and stereotypes while claiming to be friends with them. I seriously hope you don't speak to them with the mouth you use here.

What? Do you want the Nobel peace prize? You still have disgusting comments.

While still making disgusting and stereotypical comments about them. Some friend you are. With friends like that who needs enemies?

While still wanting to deport them.

Going by your own words here. Maybe you should be telling yourself that and changing your stereotyping and demonizing of immigrants who don't come here as you want them to. Sorry but not everyone lives according to your wishes.

I have NEVER said I wanted to deport people who have moved here illegally and who are willing and able to work and live here within the rest of the law. In fact, I have stated REPEATEDLY that I would like to see those people's path to citizenship expadited and made a lot easier and a lot CHEAPER.

You are not only out of line, you are flat out wrong. You apparently can't read through your own kneejerk, biased perspective.

But I should have gone with my first hunch, which was to write off even responding to you. It's pointless. You, apparently, are insane.

Or maybe your little signature avatar simply says it all.

 

[Mister_T]

So are you saying that their employers have hordes of illegal immigrants on their payroll and that's how they are paying income taxes?

Yes, this is not uncommon. For example you can't work at an established business like McDonalds for cash only and you can't cash business-issued checks --that have a complete list of all the deductions taken out of your check for the pay period-- issued to your "name," like many of the illegal immigrants here who work construction do.

If so - yes, it's different here, because in northeast Texas, most employers make a definite effort NOT to hire illegal aliens.

Yeah that's different than here and I'd say that's certainly not the norm for the country.

I would still say to you that those illegal aliens who are employed illegally in your area are at great risk of losing all the "benefits" of their illegal employment. All it would take is one raid for them to be off the payroll, their fake social security numbers inactivated, and the complete and sudden loss of all the future benefits (not to mention current ones) that they have been working so hard for.

Often times there are no "benefits" other than a steady paycheck for a hard days work. Also, their SS numbers are not fake, but often borrowed from either one of their family members or friends who were willing to let them use it. And they all go to work each day, knowing that INS could bust their company and haul them off to jail for deportation. I could go off on a long, angry rant about INS that raid the bus stops for people taking the bus to work, and ID checkpoints that cops set up at the parks on the days they know people are going to be barbecuing...all the while never-ever setting up any such raid or check-point at all the gang infested neighborhoods and drug houses, but I'm trying to keep my blood pressure down today.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The 14 amendment in so far as it relates to citizenship of people born in the USA. is also respecting reciprocal international law, and the laws of a majority of other nations.
To deny a child citizenship can deny them citizen status in any country... they could be stateless.
Not all countries give citizenship to children of expats. And if the child has parents from more than one country it can be very complex indeed.

 

[LittlePinky82]

I have NEVER said I wanted to deport people who have moved here illegally and who are willing and able to work and live here within the rest of the law. In fact, I have stated REPEATEDLY that I would like to see those people's path to citizenship expadited and made a lot easier and a lot CHEAPER.

You are not only out of line, you are flat out wrong. You apparently can't read through your own kneejerk, biased perspective.

But I should have gone with my first hunch, which was to write off even responding to you. It's pointless. You, apparently, are insane.

Or maybe your little signature avatar simply says it all.

Oh I see. So because of my avatar that must mean that right? Wow you're on a roll with personal attacks! And I can read and comprehend everything you say just fine.

 

[Kathryn]

Pinky, listen, I'm really trying to help you here. You seem pretty bright - but you're lambastic style stymies what could be meaningful debate and dialogue.

If you would tone down your sarcasm and inflammatory approach, maybe we could discuss things civilly - and (get this) possibly learn to understand the other's perspective better.

It's a novel idea, but...it could work!

 

[Darkness]

Sure does! 21's that magical age for all the cool adult rights, like alcohol, strip clubs, car rentals, and bringing your illegal parents who forded the Rio Grande at midnight to bring your little ungrateful fetus self into the land of the free all so you can 'anchor' them to the promise land 21 years later -- assuming you're not too busy boozing it up in a strip joint on your 21st birthday.

We have to worry about the worst kind - TERRORIST ANCHOR BABIES! :cover:

 

[LittlePinky82]

Pinky, listen, I'm really trying to help you here. You seem pretty bright - but you're lambastic style stymies what could be meaningful debate and dialogue.

If you would tone down your sarcasm and inflammatory approach, maybe we could discuss things civilly - and (get this) possibly learn to understand the other's perspective better.

It's a novel idea, but...it could work!

You mean inflammatory like what you've said about immigrants coming across the southern border? Like that? Oh and don't forget your insulting comments about me you were more than happy to make. You first.