Black Pope

[Alceste]

A woman pope?
They can't even be priests and you think there could be a woman pope?

Ha, It'll never, ever, ever happen.

I read a pretty persuasive argument that there has been a female pope. In the most extreme days of European patriarchy, it was not uncommon for women to "pass" as men and enter the clergy (or other professions). Where better to protect your true gender than a community of celibates?

I read a letter to the editor from a cross-dressing woman during as recently as the gold rush in BC (1860) strongly advocating that all single ladies looking for a quick buck grab themselves a suit and look for work on Vancouver Island.

Realistically, any woman with a significant allotment of brains during the dark ages was probably trying to figure out a way to pass for a man.

 

[Thana]

I read a pretty persuasive argument that there has been a female pope. In the most extreme days of European patriarchy, it was not uncommon for women to "pass" as men and enter the clergy (or other professions). Where better to protect your true gender than a community of celibates?

I read a letter to the editor from a cross-dressing woman during as recently as the gold rush in BC (1860) strongly advocating that all single ladies looking for a quick buck grab themselves a suit and look for work on Vancouver Island.

Realistically, any woman with a significant allotment of brains during the dark ages was probably trying to figure out a way to pass for a man.

Actually, I'm pretty sure they checked your special place in front of all the Cardinals before you officially became Pope.. So I highly doubt it.

 

[fantome profane]

As I understand it, when you decide to be a priest or a nun, you get your "virginity" back, regardless of whatever you got up to before.

Does it hurt?

 

[Shiranui117]

You never know, I mean somebody probably said the same thing about a black president in the late 1700's to the early 1800's.

With social liberalism on the rise, it wouldn't surprise me. Not only is society changing, but a lot of religion is too.

Being elected Pope is not the same thing as being elected President. The Church is not a democracy founded by men. What the masses say does not go. The Church is beholden to only three Persons: The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Shiranui117]

Trying to assume that political concepts should extend into the religious sphere is gravely mistaken. I suppose this misunderstanding is a product of Church and state being mixed together in America for so long.

 

[Sees]

Trying to assume that political concepts should extend into the religious sphere is gravely mistaken. I suppose this misunderstanding is a product of Church and state being mixed together in America for so long.

Not that it should.... That it has and still lingers. You think God really wanted women to shush up in church and for there to only be male clergy?

Obviously slavery was just a cultural thing and wasn't really dear to God's heart right? Yet women being second class, impure people still is?

Any intelligent religious group or organization should be able to see it for what it is. Are we sleep walking through the 21st century?

 

[EtuMalku]

There already was a Black Pope

 

[Shiranui117]

Not that it should.... That it has and still lingers. You think God really wanted women to shush up in church and for there to only be male clergy?

Obviously slavery was just a cultural thing and wasn't really dear to God's heart right? Yet women being second class, impure people still is?

Any intelligent religious group or organization should be able to see it for what it is. Are we sleep walking through the 21st century?

Did you miss where I said that women:

-can and do preach in church instead of the clergy
-can be on parish councils (just as important to the parish life, if not more so, than being a clergyman),
-lead religious education (this is actually predominantly done by women rather than by men in my experience),
-lead Bible studies and a number of other groups in the parish
-be influential spiritual mothers and leaders (come on, the copious amounts of female Saints and mystics like St. Hildegard von Bingen, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Therese of Lisieux and dozens of others should be enough proof of this)
-found, organize and lead Catholic movements and organizations, like Catherine Doherty, and St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, the first American Saint in the Roman Catholic Church

Women are nowhere near being "impure and second class" in the Church. Especially when the most revered mere mortal human in the Church is a woman.

 

[Sees]

Did you miss where I said that women:

-can and do preach in church instead of the clergy
-can be on parish councils (just as important to the parish life, if not more so, than being a clergyman),
-lead religious education (this is actually predominantly done by women rather than by men in my experience),
-lead Bible studies and a number of other groups in the parish
-be influential spiritual mothers and leaders (come on, the copious amounts of female Saints and mystics like St. Hildegard von Bingen, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Therese of Lisieux and dozens of others should be enough proof of this)
-found, organize and lead Catholic movements and organizations, like Catherine Doherty, and St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, the first American Saint in the Roman Catholic Church

Women are nowhere near being "impure and second class" in the Church. Especially when the most revered mere mortal human in the Church is a woman.

Pffft...all the work, what about the cool jobs with the glory and power?

 

[Alceste]

Actually, I'm pretty sure they checked your special place in front of all the Cardinals before you officially became Pope.. So I highly doubt it.

Seriously???? You have to show your junk to the cardinals to be pope? That's an odd test for an institution that has never been surprised by accidentally appointing a female pope, isn't it?

 

[Shiranui117]

Pffft...all the work, what about the cool jobs with the glory and power?

You don't need a job title to have glory and influence. The ability of women to perform the sacramental and liturgical duties of the clergy has no influence on these things.

 

[Sees]

You don't need a job title to have glory and influence. The ability of women to perform the sacramental and liturgical duties of the clergy has no influence on these things.

Thanks for replies so far.

Do you think allowing official Priestesses would be a bad thing? Regardless of how much women can achieve in other roles with the church, isn't withholding the highest titles and positions still a way of treating them as impure and second-class?

Seems like saying you can be an amazing mother, seamstress, secretary, housewife....but you can't be a CEO, Senator, etc.

 

[Shiranui117]

Thanks for replies so far.

Do you think allowing official Priestesses would be a bad thing?

I don't think it's a matter of "good" or "bad." I'm more looking at the realm of possibility. If it is even possible for women to become priestesses, it might be worth considering in the Church in a big way--especially since the women seem to be better than the men at keeping the Faith a lot of the time.

But again, the better question to ask--is it even possible? The Fathers disagree, and they look to the Gospels:

Christ could have chosen women to go out and teach with the Twelve. He could have given the keys of binding and loosing sins to women. He certainly had some excellent candidates--including His own Mother, who had been deemed worthy by the Father to bear God the Son in her womb! Not to mention Mary Magdalene and the myrrh-bearing women who were the first witnesses of Christ's Resurrection--and therefore chronologically the first in line to proclaim the Gospel to all the world.

But we don't see women being ordained anywhere in the Bible. We see mention of the Deaconess Phoebe in the Epistle to the Romans, but that's it.

If Christ willed that women should be ordained to the priesthood and the episcopacy, why didn't He start the ball rolling Himself? The fact that He didn't is very telling in the eyes of the Church. And this observation was being made as early as the 3rd century.

Regardless of how much women can achieve in other roles with the church, isn't withholding the highest titles and positions still a way of treating them as impure and second-class?

Seems like saying you can be an amazing mother, seamstress, secretary, housewife....but you can't be a CEO, Senator, etc.

Impure? Not at all. I've never seen any indication that women are thought of as being impure or second-class.

The point of becoming a priest or bishop isn't to exert power and influence--it's to teach, administer the sacraments, care for the unity and mission of the Church, and defend the Faith. Of those four, only the second is exclusive to the higher orders of the clergy. Any layperson can teach, care for the Church and defend the Faith--in many cases over the years, you might even say they've done a better job of it than the priests and bishops!

 

[sojourner]

When the Church has a female pope -- now that will be a church-changer.

 

[Alceste]

When the Church has a female pope -- now that will be a church-changer.

Yeah, they'll start having qualified doctors in to the papal junk inspection to make sure they're never fooled by a prosthetic again.

 

[iamsharky789]

When the Church has a female pope -- now that will be a church-changer.

Do you think that will happen in the next 100 years? I think it won't in that time but within 500 years. Maybe the church won't be here then though? I don't think a lot will change in the church if it happens. Maybe there may be a large schism that will be foes.

 

[yoda89]

When the Church has a female pope -- now that will be a church-changer.

I'm sure a lot of the nuns know what's actually happening. I do not doubt quite a few of them hold some pretty significant unspoken power. However, currently the Catholic Church is outspokenly a huge male fraternity. Those within the fraternity choose who the pope will be. Its worked so far with the art filled halls, gold encrusted temples and own private countries. They all have the same mentality. "Why rock the boat?"