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Book of Mormon is true scripture

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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Katzpur said:
Which ones? I hardly know where to start. Seriously, Deut, I could provide a number of links for you to explore, but what good would it do?
Seriously, please start with what I requested, which was not " a number of links ... to explore" but, rather, references to "quite a number of discoveries" rendering my previous quote obsolete.

And please drop the condescending "what good would it do" crap. I respect evidence irrespective of whether or not it supports my position, and your suggestion to the contrary is an entirely baseless ad hominem argument.

Where are these ("quite a number of") peer reviewed geographic, genetic and archaeological discoveries?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Deut. 32.8 said:
Please drop the condescending "what good would it do" crap. I respect evidence irrespective of whether or not it supports my position, and your suggestion to the contrary is an entirely baseless ad hominem argument.
I didn't see my comment as condescending in the slightest. I saw it as a 100% accurate description of your position on my religious beliefs.

Where are these ("quite a number of") peer reviewed geographic, genetic and archaeological discoveries?
Give me 24 hours.

Kathryn
 

The Black Whirlwind

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
You read a heck of a lot into my post, didn't you, Jedi? If I can find some of the old reference material I have on the Popul Vuh, I'll share it will share it with you, because it really was interesting. At least it would be to someone with an open mind. Do you qualify?
yeah, i read your entire post. I never knew such words were so smiliar. It was quite interesting, their mythology and all, and i would be delighted if you could share the references you have on it. Yes, i do qualify as someone with an open mind, thats why i used to change religions so much.:)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
TheJedi said:
yeah, i read your entire post. I never knew such words were so smiliar. It was quite interesting, their mythology and all, and i would be delighted if you could share the references you have on it. Yes, i do qualify as someone with an open mind, thats why i used to change religions so much.:)
Please see the website I directed Deut to. If you have any questions, I'll be happy to respond to them, but I would appreciate your posting them on the forum designed to discuss the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
Deut. 32.8 said:
And please drop the condescending "what good would it do" crap. I respect evidence irrespective of whether or not it supports my position, and your suggestion to the contrary is an entirely baseless ad hominem argument.
I can understand how you think it's condescention, but please understand the following points:

1) As LDS, we often argue with people who don't care what evidence we give them, because it's automatically tainted by the fact that we're offering it. (The Mormons are giving me this evidence, therefore it can't be valid!)

2) Testimony of the Book of Mormon is a matter of faith; I prayed about the Book of Mormon, God told me it was true. He called me to it. That's the first, last and best evidence for the Book of Mormon to most Latter-Day Saints. Despite my interest in BoM archaeology (I've posted less than a tenth of my material on the 'Evidence' thread, and of that, a great deal of it is weaker evidence), I don't expect it to change anyone's heart as completely as a witness from God.

3) We don't believe archaeology makes for a good testimony. If you are convinced by evidence and join our church, and then additional evidence casts the first part into doubt, you may not wait around to discover that the second batch of evidence was faulty, or that there is a new theory that reconciles both, or whatever. Science is constantly being revised, and depending upon it for spiritual strength is dangerous.

Of course, the above is all about changing people's hearts, not minds, and here's where I believe Katzpur may have been too hasty. I think a discussion of archaeology would increase the respect people have for our position, so that even if they don't agree, at least they won't continue to spout blather such as "There's no archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon." I am pleasantly surprised at your willingness to be objective in that regard, and I hope you'll forgive us for any pre-judging; respect and courtesy are rarities in many of these discussions, and it's hard to know how to react.
 
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The Black Whirlwind

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
Please see the website I directed Deut to. If you have any questions, I'll be happy to respond to them, but I would appreciate your posting them on the forum designed to discuss the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Wow, that is a lot of info. I dont have time now to read it all, but it all seems very interesting. thank you for posting it.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
TheJedi said:
Wow, that is a lot of info. I dont have time now to read it all, but it all seems very interesting. thank you for posting it.
And that is only scratching the surface, Jedi. As DeepShadow mentioned, we don't base our belief in the Book of Mormon on archealogical evidence. Sure, if you believe that something is true, and then evidence turns up to support your opinion, it's exciting. But I've never heard of anybody who came to the conclusion that the Book of Mormon is truly an ancient document simply because someone discovered a few artifacts buried in a Guatamalan hillside.

I may have been "too hasty" in my response to Deut (as DeepShadow) said. If I was, I'm sincerely sorry. My first impressions of people are not always accurate. I believed (and he will have to prove me wrong, I'm afraid) that he wanted to do nothing more than pick a fight. I don't have time to fight. I hate to cut and paste huge articles, and links to other sites can be overwhelming, as you undoubtedly found when you went into the one I mentioned. So, I'm just going to give you one very brief example of something that I personally found to be interesting.

The Book of Mormon, as you may or may not know, was translated by Joseph Smith, Jr., then a 23-year old boy with a third-grade education. His background was in farming. He lived in rural New York state in 1830 and had no knowledge of ancient cultures, either American or Middle-eastern. Joseph claimed that the record he translated was written on plates that had the appearance of gold. They were etched with strange characters which resembled Egyptian hieroglyphics and were bound together using metal rings, like a book. They had been stored in a large stone box and buried for centuries in a hillside near his home.

When Joseph described these plates, he immediately became the laughing stock of upstate New York. :biglaugh: Egyptian letters engraved on gold plates and hidden in a stone box! How could anything be so ludicrous? No one had ever heard of such a thing, and so of course it was dismissed as not only far-fetched but as virtually impossible.

Now, jump forward almost 100 years. In 1933, the Plates of Darius I were discovered in a stone box in a palace in Persia. They dated from about the same time as the earliest Book of Mormon plates. Half of the plates were gold and half were silver. They were very similar in appearance to the plates Joseph Smith had described. Since then, a number of other ancient records have been discovered -- all of them written on metal plates, any many deposited in stone boxes. They are on display at museums throughout the world (Chicago, Tehran, Lima, Rome, and Paris). Don't make the mistake of assuming that their content is the same as the content of the plates Joseph Smith translated, because it wasn't. The content, of course, is beside the point. What is significant is that archealogists now know that it was common for ancient people in various parts of the world to record their histories and other important information in this way. Joseph Smith didn't know this, and yet, in spite of all the ridicule, he never changed his story. History has now vindicated his claims in this regard.

Kathryn
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
Alright, I've copied Deut's objections onto the "Evidence?" thread in the LDS section, where I'm providing rebuttals as I find them. I've already got three of them posted and waiting for replies.
 
DeepShadow-- I think it would be better if you posted your rebuttals in this thread, since no debate is allowed in the Individual Religions forums and so Deut won't be able to respond to your rebuttals there.
 
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DeepShadow

White Crow
I was wondering about that...but then why were we invited to take this discussion there? Alright I'm going to bed, and I'll sort this out in the morning.

It's Emu's thread...Emu, would you be adverse to a compromise? A mod moves your thread to "discussion?" Wait, are rebuttals allowed in discussion? I don't know, I'm tired, I'm teaching in the morning (wait, that's only six hours, aw crud) and my brain hurts. I'll be back...sometime....
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Ok, in "discussion" area there is no debate. If you want to debate the evidence, I would continue it here.

Katzpur asked that those who want evidence ask for it in the LDS section of discussion, so that is where I put my thread :D
 

CMIYC

Member
All religions come with a gimmick. Should I worship on Saturday instead of Sunday,

Stay away from blood, get reborn, don’t eat this don’t eat that, don’t have sex-have sex.

Who really cares. Who really cares if one story in the bible is true or not, as long as the message is clear.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
CMIYC said:
Who really cares if one story in the bible is true or not, as long as the message is clear.
I do. For one thing, I believe that the inhabitants of the Levant deserve a real history.
 

CMIYC

Member
Deut. 32.8 said:
I do. For one thing, I believe that the inhabitants of the Levant deserve a real history.
Ok I’ll ask in a different way; if you found out that none of the stories were true, would that change your mind in what you believe in?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
CMIYC said:
Ok I’ll ask in a different way; if you found out that none of the stories were true, would that change your mind in what you believe in?
No, but that is in large part because what I believe is, in large part, the consequence of a realization that that many of the stories are not credible.
 

CMIYC

Member
Deut. 32.8 said:
No, but that is in large part because what I believe is, in large part, the consequence of a realization that that many of the stories are not credible.
But that does not mean they weren’t inspired by god. Take for instance a law book, the law was written before the crime was committed and some were added after the crime was committed, same for the bible.
 

Kowalski

Active Member
Come now, are you telling us that Smith wasn't aware that Moses was handed the Ten Commandments of tablets of stone. He went one better and invented Gold ones !!. Gold was a rare and precious commodity in the ancient. Writing was rarely commited to such material.

K
 
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