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Book of Mormon vs. DNA

DeepShadow

White Crow
Please provide support.

I've done so already, and you claimed you couldn't understand genetics. Maybe this is the wrong thread for you?

As I said, what you don't have is any genetic connection between Indians and Semites. Ergo, no Lammanites etc.

For someone who doesn't undersand genetics, you draw some pretty strong conclusions. Haplogroup X is especially strong among Semites.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
The above, in bold, is is the conclusion of a peer-reviewed geneticist. So far, the only rebuttals have been Melissa's begging the question and Autodidact saying she doesn't understand genetics.

Is this really so hard to understand, Autodidact? We have here a peer-reviewed geneticist saying there's a gentic link between Europe/Asia Minor and the original settlers of the Americas. Do you get that part?
Can you cite the study please? Are you pasting from a website? If so, could you cite it please? Thank you.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I've done so already, and you claimed you couldn't understand genetics. Maybe this is the wrong thread for you?
I'm sorry, you cited a scientific journal article? I missed it. What was it? I need to learn about the specific claim. Thank you.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Simon Southerton:

I was surprised to read last year an apologetic claim that 7% of the DNA collected from indigenous peoples of the Western Hemisphere matched DNA collected from North Africa and the Middle East.6 The lineage in question, the X lineage, was claimed to be “different from similar DNA in Northeast Asia.” The claims were no doubt well intended but they were incorrect. Amerindian X lineages occur at a frequency of about 1.6% across the New World. The lineage is distantly related to X lineages found in Asians as well as X and the related lineage N which occur in the Middle East and Europe.

In order for the X lineage to be considered possible evidence of Lamanite DNA, apologists need to explain away the following facts:

  • Amerindian DNA lineages belonging to the X family are at least as diverse as the lineages belonging to the A, B, C, and D lineage families, meaning they have been present in the New World for about as long.7

  • The X lineage occurs at a frequency of 8 percent in Canadian tribes and 3 percent in tribes from the United States. To date, the X lineage has not been found in Central or South America, where the three major New World civilizations are located.8 The vast majority of apologists consider Mesoamerica to be the only plausible setting for the Book of Mormon narrative because of the Book of Mormon’s description of major populations living in complex and literate cultures.

  • There is evidence that X-lineage DNA has been isolated from ancient remains that pre-date the Jaredite and Lehite time period by thousands of years.9

  • Amerindian X lineages are distantly related to X lineages found in Europe, North Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. They are estimated to have separated from these populations over 30,000 years ago—no later than 17,600 years ago.10 The fact that Asian X lineages directly ancestral to American Indian X lineages have not been found is not evidence that they were brought into the Americas by non-Asian people. Deeper sampling of Siberian populations is likely to shed more light on this lineage’s Asian ancestry.
Is this the X lineage you're referring to?
 

Melissa G

Non Veritas Verba Amanda
Posted by Deep Shadow: " For someone who doesn't undersand genetics, you draw some pretty strong conclusions. Haplogroup X is especially strong among Semites."

And this does not prove anything at all regarding your lost tribes, as there very existence is totally and utterly unprovable outside the BOM.
Melissa G
__________________
 

Troublemane

Well-Known Member
I don't know enough about the research to make a conclusion. The Native Americans aren't 100% the decendants of the Lamanites. There are many people that have come to the America's throughout history. Those genetics would all come into the mix.

I just thought of something. Maybe the Lamanites were reduced to just a few hundred people and then many Asiatic people migrated to the Americas after or eve before the Lamanites then they intemixed and the Asiatic DNA was more dominant than the Lamanite DNA.

I can't really add anything pro or con (by the rules since I am not LDS) however< I can say that I have seen a lot of evidence that there was ancient trading between Mesopotamia and Central/South American peoples as far back as 1,000 BCE, and earlier. And while the current mainstream science view is that the majority of native american people came to North America 20,000 years ago by crossing the Beiring Strait in the last ice age, I think its very possible to imagine an intermixing of some mesopotamian people with native americans. I was raised in the midwest, near Cahokia Mounds (big earth mound same size as the pyramid of Giza), and have always speculated a connection with the middle east.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Posted by Deep Shadow: " For someone who doesn't undersand genetics, you draw some pretty strong conclusions. Haplogroup X is especially strong among Semites."

And this does not prove anything at all regarding your lost tribes, as there very existence is totally and utterly unprovable outside the BOM.
Melissa G
__________________

In all fairness, Melissa, that's what he's trying to do. Deep's contention is that the DNA evidence supports the hypothesis that the BoM people existed. They didn't, and the evidence is all to the contrary, but his post is relevant.
 

Melissa G

Non Veritas Verba Amanda
In all fairness, what he's saying could apply to any group of semetics, he hasn't, isn't and cannot prove an iota of evidence for lost tribes by the names the BOM gives them.

Melissa G
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
In all fairness, what he's saying could apply to any group of semetics, he hasn't, isn't and cannot prove an iota of evidence for lost tribes by the names the BOM gives them.

Melissa G

Well, that's true. There is no archeological evidence of the people described in the BoM. I get what you're saying--it wouldn't matter if there were some DNA evidence, if it doesn't match up and isn't supported by the archeological evidence, and vice versa. Like every once in a while a Mormon will say that such and such a people have a legend that could be interpreted as consistent with the BoM, but those people never ALSO have archeology that indicates that they could possibly be those people, so it doesn't matter.
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
I can't really add anything pro or con (by the rules since I am not LDS) however< I can say that I have seen a lot of evidence that there was ancient trading between Mesopotamia and Central/South American peoples as far back as 1,000 BCE, and earlier. And while the current mainstream science view is that the majority of native american people came to North America 20,000 years ago by crossing the Beiring Strait in the last ice age, I think its very possible to imagine an intermixing of some mesopotamian people with native americans. I was raised in the midwest, near Cahokia Mounds (big earth mound same size as the pyramid of Giza), and have always speculated a connection with the middle east.

Well I've come to the conclusion that there isn't enough information in the Book of Mormon to determine it's accuracy with archeological evidence. It's not that the Book of Mormon is wrong. It's just that it doesn't provide enough detailed information ragarding the history of those people. Maybe the reason we haven't found any evidence of the Book of Mormon people is because what was decribed in the Book of Mormon happened in a small area and has since been destroyed, flooded, or not yet discovered. We just don't know. There's not enough information available in the Book of Mormon to corroborate it with anything currently known about the Ancient American cultures.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Well I've come to the conclusion that there isn't enough information in the Book of Mormon to determine it's accuracy with archeological evidence. It's not that the Book of Mormon is wrong. It's just that it doesn't provide enough detailed information ragarding the history of those people. Maybe the reason we haven't found any evidence of the Book of Mormon people is because what was decribed in the Book of Mormon happened in a small area and has since been destroyed, flooded, or not yet discovered. We just don't know. There's not enough information available in the Book of Mormon to corroborate it with anything currently known about the Ancient American cultures.

But it is a very long book, and has a lot of info. It actually does seem to say that the people in it occupied a large area of land, that they numbered in the millions, that they used smelted metals, grew wheat, herded cattle, had wheels, horses, spears, shields, used metal currency, built houses, often of cement, and mostly that they had tremendous battles with thousands of casualties, battles which would have left skeletons, armor, shields, chariots, arrows, spears and much more, and none of which has ever been found.

I mean, what do you think the BoM says about the history of America?
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
But it is a very long book, and has a lot of info. It actually does seem to say that the people in it occupied a large area of land, that they numbered in the millions, that they used smelted metals, grew wheat, herded cattle, had wheels, horses, spears, shields, used metal currency, built houses, often of cement, and mostly that they had tremendous battles with thousands of casualties, battles which would have left skeletons, armor, shields, chariots, arrows, spears and much more, and none of which has ever been found.

Yes it is a fairly long book, but how much of that is a detailed record of the conditions back then? Most of it details the religious interactions of the people. It's not meant to be a historical textbook. It's meant to be a religious book. So basically what I'm saying it we cannot rely on the Book of Mormon to go along with archeological evidence because there isn't enough information. Now if the sealed portion was revealed maybe we would have some more information and might find some connections.

It would be if I wrote a summary of the western events from 1000AD to 2000AD. Then I further summarized it to a few hundred pages. Obviouly I would need some sort of focus to determine what important parts I would highlight. In the case of the Book of Mormon it was religious. If you read my summary it would only give a general basic idea about the actual history. But it probably couldn't be relied upon as accurate except for that which was my focus. Now if you have someone translate that summary into a language that might not have words for some things I am describing. The peple reading that summary wouldn't have enough information to verify much of what I wrote. Especially if they were reading it over one thousand years later. Obviously this isn't a perfect example.

I mean, what do you think the BoM says about the history of America?

Personally I don't think it says much about the overall history of the Ancient Americas. It does speak of the history of a few roups of people tha came to the Ancient Americas. But it says very little of how these groups fit in with the overall history of the Ancient Americas.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
This deal where we look at a long, specific, detailed book, and then squinch up our eyes and claim to have no idea what it says or meant. First of all it's clearly an avoidance technique. When it came out, LDS leadership knew exactly what it means. (principal ancestors, etc., Hill Cumorah, whole land from sea to sea,...) That all turned out to be wrong, so now suddenly, instead of just admitting that it's wrong, we don't know what it says. It's too vague!

But it's not vague. In fact it's specific about a number of things. It describes, among other things, great battles between tens of thousands of soldiers using metal weaponry leaving tens of thousands of casualties. Such battles would leave archeological evidence. The evidence is not there. Ergo the battles didn't happen. It describes animals, including entire herds. No archeological evidence of any such animals having been here at the time. It describes entire ways of life of thousands of people, agricultural, herding people, with specific crops and specific herds--none of which have been found. It describes a metallurgy that has not been found. It's not a small thing we're looking for. Besides the furnaces, forges, etc., there would be geological evidence from the runoff--which hasn't been found.

And it describes a middle-eastern ancestry that we now know is not the case. Whether you dig up a small haplogroup from a tiny percentage of people that you can't account for or not, we all agree now that the American Indians descended not from some mythical Lammanites, but from Siberian immigrants. The BoM says they descended from ANE immigrants. They didn't.

Second, if your book is so vague and confusing that you can't tell what it says, than it's useless for anything, especially your immortal salvation!

Third, apparently your interpretation of the book differs significantly from the founder of your religion. In 1833 Joseph Smith wrote to Rochester, New York, newspaper editor N. C. Saxton that "[t]he Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our western Tribes of Indians ... By it we learn that our western tribes of Indians are descendants from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the land of America is a promised land unto them, and unto it all the tribes of Israel will come."
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
This deal where we look at a long, specific, detailed book, and then squinch up our eyes and claim to have no idea what it says or meant. First of all it's clearly an avoidance technique. When it came out, LDS leadership knew exactly what it means. (principal ancestors, etc., Hill Cumorah, whole land from sea to sea,...) That all turned out to be wrong, so now suddenly, instead of just admitting that it's wrong, we don't know what it says. It's too vague!

An avoidance technique? What am I avoiding? I'm simply saying there isn't enough information present to make a conclusion. There are many things early church leadership said that I don't agree with. Does what time period a person comes from make them a greater authority than people from a different one?

But it's not vague. In fact it's specific about a number of things. It describes, among other things, great battles between tens of thousands of soldiers using metal weaponry leaving tens of thousands of casualties. Such battles would leave archeological evidence. The evidence is not there. Ergo the battles didn't happen. It describes animals, including entire herds. No archeological evidence of any such animals having been here at the time. It describes entire ways of life of thousands of people, agricultural, herding people, with specific crops and specific herds--none of which have been found. It describes a metallurgy that has not been found. It's not a small thing we're looking for. Besides the furnaces, forges, etc., there would be geological evidence from the runoff--which hasn't been found.

And how do you know that is exactly what our modern words are describing. What proof do you have? Show me evidence from the Book of Mormon that they had huge furnaces leaving behind huge amounts of evidence. On the other hand have we excavated every part of America in a search for these great battles? I haven't seen any archeological excavations here in my part of Idaho. Maybe the battles happened here. Again, there isn't enough information to know specifically what the Book of Mormon is mentioning.

And it describes a middle-eastern ancestry that we now know is not the case. Whether you dig up a small haplogroup from a tiny percentage of people that you can't account for or not, we all agree now that the American Indians descended not from some mythical Lammanites, but from Siberian immigrants. The BoM says they descended from ANE immigrants. They didn't.

It describes a middle-eastern ancestry for a group of people. I'm pretty sure it doesn't say in the Book of Mormon that Naphites/Lamanites were the ONLY people here in the Americas. Again the Book of Mormon probably wouldn't mention other groups that aren't relevent to the religious interaction of God and the Nephite/Lamanites.

Second, if your book is so vague and confusing that you can't tell what it says, than it's useless for anything, especially your immortal salvation!

I never said we can't tell what it says. I can read it quite clearly. But if I'm not wearing my glasses I have to hold it a little closer to get the words to be clear. What I did say is that it can't be used as a complete definative description of acient American history. It goes into quite some detail and clarity about the religious interactions of those people. Thus I would definatly rely on it for my eternal salvation but I wouldn't use it as a history text book.

Third, apparently your interpretation of the book differs significantly from the founder of your religion. In 1833 Joseph Smith wrote to Rochester, New York, newspaper editor N. C. Saxton that "[t]he Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our western Tribes of Indians ... By it we learn that our western tribes of Indians are descendants from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the land of America is a promised land unto them, and unto it all the tribes of Israel will come."

Joseph Smith said many things that my opinion differs with. I have that right as a human being and child of God. Or does uniting with a particular religion mean I must aboslutly agree with religious leaders (whos opinons differ among themselves) of that church regarldess of my own opinions?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I would say that what you, and many other Mormons, are avoiding, is reality.
Here's what I mean by avoidance:
1. "The Book of Mormon says that x, y, z happened."
2. The evidence indicates that neither x,y, nor z happened.
3. "We don't know what the BoM says."
Hmm, funny how you knew what it said, until it turned out to be wrong. Rather than admit it's wrong, now suddenly you don't know what it says. That's where the time period comes in, it's the order of events that is so suspicious.

It not our modern words, it's the words in the BoM. It describes metallurgy, metal implements. Such metal implements don't happen in isolation. To get them, you need mining, smelting and forging. All of those things are large and create extensive evidence, both archeological and geological. Same with the crops. It's not just that we can't find the crops, it's that these things represent an entire way of life, with ploughs, threshers, mills, grain storage and I don't know what all. Ovens? Etc. So we don't find any evidence of any of it. And so on and so forth. No chariots, no wheels whatsoever, no roads for them to drive on, no axles, no nothing.

I could buy your argument if you were talking about a small settlement (although think of the small Greenland settlement--we've found a lot of archeological evidence from that.) But you're talking about literally millions of people. For example, in a single battle, 230,000 soldiers are killed on one side. What percentage of the total population of men, women and children on both sides might that be? 10% would be astronomical. That would be 2 million people. So at one point, two million people grow wheat, drive chariots, raise horses, use spears, trade in metal currency, they have a big war and a huge battle, and no one has ever found a trace of it? That's just ridiculous.

the National Geographic Society has stated "Archaeologists and other scholars have long probed the hemisphere's past and the society does not know of anything found so far that has substantiated the Book of Mormon.
(wiki)

No one said a complete or definitive history, although what's the point of founding your religion on a book that's not definitive? What I said is, it purports to be a history. A history of a population of millions of people who lived and died here without leaving a trace. Meanwhile, we do have huge collections of artifacts, records, skeletons, etc. etc. from the people who did actually live here, in every corner of the continent, and they don't bear any resemblance to these mythical people.

Idaho? It's been extensively excavated for the last century. We know every major Indian tribe there, from the Bannock to the Shoshone. Heck, May is Idaho Archeology month. Go on a dig and see if you can find any evidence of Lammanites. Yes, in effect we've excavated representative locations in every single part of the Americas, and never found anything to support anything in the BoM. Ever. Period.

You can always tell anti-science from science. In science, we find out more and more. With anti-science, knowledge mysteriously retreats; we know less and less until we know nothing. That is because anti-science has to reject all discoveries inconsistent with its assumptions. So according to Mormon apologists, we've gotten to the point where we don't know who lived here, when, or how they lived. But of course, in reality, we do. And what we know is, the BoM was wrong.

So Smith "translates" the book with God's assistance, but has no idea what it is? He thinks it's a history, but he's mistaken? He really had no business founding a religion then, did he? I mean, the man had no idea what he was doing.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I would say that what you, and many other Mormons, are avoiding, is reality.
Here's what I mean by avoidance:
1. "The Book of Mormon says that x, y, z happened."
2. The evidence indicates that neither x,y, nor z happened.
3. "We don't know what the BoM says."
Hmm, funny how you knew what it said, until it turned out to be wrong. Rather than admit it's wrong, now suddenly you don't know what it says. That's where the time period comes in, it's the order of events that is so suspicious.

It not our modern words, it's the words in the BoM. It describes metallurgy, metal implements. Such metal implements don't happen in isolation. To get them, you need mining, smelting and forging. All of those things are large and create extensive evidence, both archeological and geological. Same with the crops. It's not just that we can't find the crops, it's that these things represent an entire way of life, with ploughs, threshers, mills, grain storage and I don't know what all. Ovens? Etc. So we don't find any evidence of any of it. And so on and so forth. No chariots, no wheels whatsoever, no roads for them to drive on, no axles, no nothing.

I could buy your argument if you were talking about a small settlement (although think of the small Greenland settlement--we've found a lot of archeological evidence from that.) But you're talking about literally millions of people. For example, in a single battle, 230,000 soldiers are killed on one side. What percentage of the total population of men, women and children on both sides might that be? 10% would be astronomical. That would be 2 million people. So at one point, two million people grow wheat, drive chariots, raise horses, use spears, trade in metal currency, they have a big war and a huge battle, and no one has ever found a trace of it? That's just ridiculous.

(wiki)

No one said a complete or definitive history, although what's the point of founding your religion on a book that's not definitive? What I said is, it purports to be a history. A history of a population of millions of people who lived and died here without leaving a trace. Meanwhile, we do have huge collections of artifacts, records, skeletons, etc. etc. from the people who did actually live here, in every corner of the continent, and they don't bear any resemblance to these mythical people.

Idaho? It's been extensively excavated for the last century. We know every major Indian tribe there, from the Bannock to the Shoshone. Heck, May is Idaho Archeology month. Go on a dig and see if you can find any evidence of Lammanites. Yes, in effect we've excavated representative locations in every single part of the Americas, and never found anything to support anything in the BoM. Ever. Period.

You can always tell anti-science from science. In science, we find out more and more. With anti-science, knowledge mysteriously retreats; we know less and less until we know nothing. That is because anti-science has to reject all discoveries inconsistent with its assumptions. So according to Mormon apologists, we've gotten to the point where we don't know who lived here, when, or how they lived. But of course, in reality, we do. And what we know is, the BoM was wrong.

So Smith "translates" the book with God's assistance, but has no idea what it is? He thinks it's a history, but he's mistaken? He really had no business founding a religion then, did he? I mean, the man had no idea what he was doing.

Try this one on for size my fellow atheist if you have an hour to spare. I found it quite interesting.....

YouTube - The Lost Book of Abraham (Full Video)
 

tomspug

Absorbant
It's not meant to be a historical textbook. It's meant to be a religious book.
And there you have it. The difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

The Bible wasn't written to start a religion. It was written to detail history.

The Book of Mormon, on the other hand, WAS written to start a religion, which is why none of its history is verifiable.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
And there you have it. The difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

The Bible wasn't written to start a religion. It was written to detail history.

The Book of Mormon, on the other hand, WAS written to start a religion, which is why none of its history is verifiable.

Well, there are a few million Christian who would disagree with you.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
The Book of Mormon doesn't rise or fall with evidence of real events. It rises and falls with the truth or the lie that Jesus is the Christ. It's purpose is to testify of Christ and to provide truths to those who would access its mythology. Whether the events actually happened or not is irrelevant to this purpose.
 
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