Book of Mormon

[Watchmen]

We've? Now you're own isolated experience translates into 11 million Mormons? Hmmm. Hey, okay. Of that's how you see it.

"We've" translates to those you're talking to on this Forum. How do you explain we've never heard what you're talking about in church?

Oh - you can't.

I'll respond to the rest of your drivel later.

 

[Katzpur]

Perhaps I've brought up some controversial points. Maybe I've pointed out some things that many Mormons don't want pointed out. But full-blown dishonesty?? I truly don't think I have done that.

I have a few questions for you. I would appreciate your responses.

1. What is your purpose for posting here? Is it or is it not to "expose the truth" about Mormonism?

2. How many actual LDS worship services have you attended in your lifetime? How many complete books written by living LDS General Authorities have you read from cover to cover?

3. Do you believe that anything short of "full-blown dishonesty" is somehow justifiable? Do you think God turns a blind eye to distortions, half-truths, quotations taken out of context, etc. as long as these are spoken in the interest of saving souls?

Kolob is in your standard work of holy writ, not mine. I;v really only quoted LDs sources.

Have any of us denied the belief in Kolob?

 

[Katzpur]

The Doctrine Today Whether the conception of Jesus physically took place can be categorized as a disputed doctrine. Modern Mormons either take the position of, "it's possible, I don't know", deny that it was taught, and/or deny the possibility of anything other than a genuine virgin birth. The majority of Mormons vaguely believe that Heavenly Father somehow used his physical strength to develop the unborn child, and never underwent sexual intercourse of any kind with Mary.

How on earth can you claim to know what the majority of Mormons vaguely believe? Seriously, this is something you can't possibly know. The official doctrine of the Church is and always has been that Jesus Christ was born of a virgiin. What is it about this that you don't understand? A woman who has had sexual intercourse is not a virgin. I thought all adults knew that. Apparently there's one who doesn't.

 

[painted wolf]

Oh, but I am! I was getting so sick and tired of all the discussion on the Church's support of Proposition 8, I was wondering if we were ever going to have a good old-fashioned Bash-the-Mormons mud fest again. I can't tell you how thrilled I am that you've breathed new life into the forum.

And here I thought the Prop 8 thing was giving you a break from the run of the mill. :foryou:

wa:do

 

[Katzpur]

And here I thought the Prop 8 thing was giving you a break from the run of the mill. :foryou:

wa:do

Are you kidding? I stopped posting on those after about the first three days. I stopped reading them after the first couple of weeks.

 

[painted wolf]

Are you kidding? I stopped posting on those after about the first three days. I stopped reading them after the first couple of weeks.

:hug:
I can't really blame you there... the issue is a nasty one. Fortunately there are a lot of us who know not to put ourselves in every pair of LDS shoes.

wa:do

 

[Katzpur]

:hug: I can't really blame you there... the issue is a nasty one. Fortunately there are a lot of us who know not to put ourselves in every pair of LDS shoes.

I'd like to frubal you again, but I can't. Will you take a raincheck?

 

[painted wolf]

I'd like to frubal you again, but I can't. Will you take a raincheck?

you betcha.

wa:do

 

[MissMe]

Just going to throw this in here to get some answers.

Ephesians 2: 8-9 KJV

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Isn't it a belief of Latter Day Saints that it is through our works that we achieve salvation?

Insight would be appreciated.

 

[Sunstone]

Oh, but I am! I was getting so sick and tired of all the discussion on the Church's support of Proposition 8, I was wondering if we were ever going to have a good old-fashioned Bash-the-Mormons mud fest again. I can't tell you how thrilled I am that you've breathed new life into the forum.

I would just like to take a moment to point out the clear relationship between Mormon missionaries and unsightly dandruff in teenage prom queens. Not that I'm one to spread scurrilous rumors.

 

[Watchmen]

Just going to throw this in here to get some answers.

Ephesians 2: 8-9 KJV

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Isn't it a belief of Latter Day Saints that it is through our works that we achieve salvation?

Insight would be appreciated.

And isn't there a scripture that says "faith without works is dead..."

How do you reconcile the two?

 

[Katzpur]

Just going to throw this in here to get some answers.

Ephesians 2: 8-9 KJV

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Isn't it a belief of Latter Day Saints that it is through our works that we achieve salvation?

Insight would be appreciated.

We believe that we are saved through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The first principle of the gospel is faith in Him and in His promise of salvation. It is through Him alone that we have the assurance that we can be reconciled to our Father in Heaven.

Ephesians 2 explains how great our Savior's love is. He was under no obligation to take upon Himself our sins, to suffer and to die so that we might live. It was a gift given to us out of his great love for us. On the other hand, while we ARE saved by grace, and while that grace is a gift, nowhere in the Bible does it say that this is a gift to be given indiscriminately. A number of scriptures indicate that it is a gift offered only to those whom the Savior chooses. According to Hebrews 5:9, Jesus Christ, being perfect, “became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” Or as Christ Himself put it, it is “he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven” who will ultimately be saved (Matthew 7:21).

We must have faith in Christ. That's the first step, and it's impossible to proceed to the second (repentence) without having taken the first. What does it mean, though, to have faith in Christ? It is our belief that a person can't truly have faith in Christ unless he is faithful to Christ. I think that's what James meant when he said, “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:20-24)

I guess you could say that we believe we are saved by faith in Christ -- but it must be a living faith, as evidenced by our obedience to him.

 

[madcap]

This thread has gone in an entirely different direction than I expected it to when I started reading it.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

My wiki reference was supposed to be linked to send people to the mormonwiki place to see what it says about the conception of Jesus (see mormonwikidotorg/Conception_of_Jesus, replace "dot" for "."). It's fixed now (see my website -- I'm not allowed to post URLs yet).

Well initially it sent me to an anti-mormon website supposedly quoting something from the MormonWiki. I will re-check it and see where it leads me.....

I don't mean to be flip, but if you don't see that in the multiple quotes, then you need to have a talk with mommy and daddy about the birds and bees. I mean: "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, pages 546-47).

OK, as I said, your original link sent me to an antimormon website, I looked where I could on the MormonWiki (which like the normal wiki is huge!)and only found that ONE quote that I showed you. I was saying you cant see in the quote I showed you anything about God actually have sex with Mary. I didnt see any of these so called mentioned multiple quotes, but now you have sorted out the link...i will go look.

You tell me, how do you think a mortal father begets a mortal baby? Whatever way earthly daddy's do that, well, it seems that's how Heavenly Father (an immortal daddy) made Jesus. The rest of the quotes support this again and again.

Ok so now you are saying the word begat means he had sex....Ok....I will go with this, well in that case, you are stating in other posts that the Bible (I take it you trust that book) says that Jesus was begat by the Holy Spirit. Does that mean that other Christian denominations teach that the Holy Spirit actually had sex with Mary??

I'm not talking about the heavenly realms as a literal spirit baby of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. I am talking about in the flesh. As Joseph F. Smith taught, "Now we are told in Scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father."

Whatever you are talking about, I am pretty sure the literal bit comes in whether it be spiritual or in the flesh.

That's pretty clear. The quotes are there for you to read in the article.

As I said - I will go and have a re-read now you have changed the link

This is an ongoing problem when dealing with Mormons. You demand to see what you've already seen -- but if you don't like it, you demand to see it stated in a specific way in which it does not appear.

But I havent seen it because YOU directed me to the wrong place!!

But if you read the many quotes I provided, and simply add 2 + 2, then you get your answer, which is very plain. If you choose not to want to do that addition, then don't. But just because I don't have a quote from Gordon B. Hinckley declaring -- "HEY everyone, welcome to the conference!! Did you all know that Heavenly father had sex with Mary!?? -- doesn't mean this is not the thrust (pardon the expression, no pun intended) of all of the quotes I have given to you. It's there if you want to see it.

We dont want in in exact words at all. The problem is you will always disagree with the Mormon beliefs/doctrines - whatever you want to dig up, therefore whatever we say or believe you will disagree with and say we are asking for exact references. We are not. My Mum said the other day, you can give the same sentence to two people, one will interpret it one way, one will intepret it another.

If you said to a child, a baby is made when mommy and daddy have sex....there is a very good chance that they will think whenever mommy and daddy have sex, a baby is made, now as adults we know that this is not true. I know of one story a lady gave brith while she was on the toilet (she amazingly didnt realise it was contractions!) and ever since then her little boy thought that when he went to the toilet a baby would come out. Now I know these are pretty silly examples, but all I am tyring to show is perceptions. Take the Trinity for example, you would say it shows that there is One God and Jesus is the Son of God as many Christians or people who say they are Christians would say they believe. HOWEVER, if you look at the doctrine, it actually says that Jesus IS God in the flesh. But if you were to ask people they would say he is the Son of God. It makes me laugh the amount of Christians who have never even heard of the Trinity! Funny considering its the one believe which is the centre of the belief! Yet your having a go at people because they have never heard of Kolob, which isnt an important belief, just as I was told original sin isnt an important belief for protestants.

Saying, "you just need to look in the right places" is an understatement. But you're right, the material is indeed accessible if you know where/how to look. But I'm not sure how trustworthy any organization is that forces people to "look in the right places" or else they won't really get the truth. Hmmm.

Not at all - its not like these "places" are hidden away and in dark places, but I apologise for the bad use of words. All I meant was if you want to know, you can look on the internet and you find out. Not all Mormons will know EVERYTHING about the beliefs and doctrines. One of the great things about the LDS faith is they believe in continuous learning. I am sure if you asked people of other faiths there would be things they would not be sure on......Look at the muslims, some wear the hijab, some do not. Some Christians find it OK to spank their children because it is in the Bible, others do not, does this mean that all Christians are abusive parents - no it doesnt!!!!

I should also point out that other Christians believe that the Holy Spirit IS God therefore they to also believe that Jesus was begat from God.

I am curious why you are so interested in the Mormons, why not Muslims or Catholics or any other religion you dont agree with.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Ok, I have searched MormonWiki high and low and can find no such quotes that you mention. Can you please provide me with a link which takes me to the actual mormonwiki page that you say has these quotes....and not to your own site as the link originally did! Thankyou

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Here is an explanation of the discrepancy between Brigham Young saying that Jesus was not begotten of the Holy Ghost....again makes perfect sense to me!

Was Jesus Begotten of the Holy Ghost

 

[rabanes]

Sorry, but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, that's what I'm going to call it.

Agreed. But I don't quack, have feathers, or waddle. Sorry.

I was getting so sick and tired of all the discussion on the Church's support of Proposition 8, I was wondering if we were ever going to have a good old-fashioned Bash-the-Mormons mud fest again. I can't tell you how thrilled I am that you've breathed new life into the forum.

Well, I am not here to bash Mormons. I was actually, if you notice, responding to someone wels who had posted material by me here. And then I only got into it because of some inaccurate responses I saw from Mormons. I have no interest in bashing, mudslinging, or anything else you might be thrilled over.

Thanks, but if your posts are any indication of the accuracy of the information in your book, I'll pass. Why would I have to read your book to find out what I believe when I could just go to church instead?

Oh, well, the issue is not me telling you what you believe, the issue you you telling others what you believe accurately and not hiding the truth. That seems to be the problem among Mormons. I have no doubt you know what you believe, you know what the BOM and D&C say, and you know what is taught at your church. Although, TBH, you might not know a few things about your own Church's history since your LDS leaders insist on its historians writing only "faith promoting" histories that conceal information which might damage your faith. You could probably benefit from my books there.

That's right. You don't have to understand anything to have an opinion on it. As I once heard it put, "People are always down on those things they're not up on."

I'm sorry???? You're making no sense here. You implied that the only people who anyone could go to for correct information on a certain topic (e.g., a religion like Mormonism) was to go to someone INSIDE/PART OF that group, organization, or religion.

I pointed out the serious logical flaw in your thinking by asserting that one does not have be part of that religion, embrace that political view, or hold a certain perspective to understand or know a religion, political view, or perspective.

Your list of examples says it all. Racism, Anti-Semitism, hate crimes, neo-Nazis and Mormons. What great company we're in.

Friend, you are showing another trait I have seen among Mormons -- i.e., kind of a persecution complex paranoia. Whatever parallel you are drawing here with these groups is all in your own head. I happen to work a lot in the area of racism/hate crimes and those fine people at those organizations sprang to mind. That's as far as it goes.

I wonder if that was intentional.

NO.

The fact is, while a person may have a superficial knowledge of the teachings of a religion other than your own, it is impossible to have the same, in-depth understanding that those who embrace it as true do.

You've just x'd out the professional legitimacy of scores of journalists, researchers, scholars, academics, etc. who claim to be experts in various fields of study -- noone of which they themselves are a part of - from crime, to religion, to political bodies, to certain social-economic groups, to any number of fields. Now, they all have a "superficial" knowledge. Ah well. Then, there's not much to say.

And when you consistently try to present other people's beliefs in an unfavorable light, ignoring what the adherents of the faith actually tell you, that speaks volumes about you.

I didn't ignore anyone. In fact, I stated very plainly, with regard to the Virgin Mary + Heavenly Father = Jesus (via a sexual union), " Now, if you personally want to say you reject such an idea. That's fine by me." That's not ignoring anyone. I also gave a link to a mormonwiki article that stated: "

Whether the conception of Jesus physically took place can be categorized as a disputed doctrine. Modern Mormons either take the position of, "it's possible, I don't know", deny that it was taught, and/or deny the possibility of anything other than a genuine virgin birth. The majority of Mormons vaguely believe that Heavenly Father somehow used his physical strength to develop the unborn child, and never underwent sexual intercourse of any kind with Mary.
​

That's not ignoring, that's giving a broad path of beliefs concerning this issue.

Oh, and BTW, I find it HIGHLY coincidental that SUDDENLY the mormonwiki article I linked here and referred to called, The Conception of Jesus -- has sudden;y disappeared and it now only gives 404 - NOT FOUND. Now, goodness, what could have happened? It was just there less than 24 hours ago, but then this thread happens and bang!!! Gone. Hmmmm. Anyone want to take credit? Fortunately, that article is saved and it will be going up as is on my website in the near future, with an explanation of how, when, and possibly why it disappeared.

RA

 

[rabanes]

Don't tell me what I mean. I meant exactly what I said ["godlike"]. We believe that God has given each and every one of us the potential to be like Him. Furthermore, Jesus gave us a commandment to "be perfect... as your Father in Heaven is perfect."

Here we have it again. Mormons seeking to spin softly what they believe in order to make it more palatable to non-Mormon readers. Here;s what your church -- it's leaders and your prophets/apostles teach.

Mormonism embraces full, complete, godhood for those who remain faithful and reach the Celestial Kingdom. It's becoming a full-blown God! You know it, and I know it. Argue with your leaders if they are inaccurate and don't correctly state what YOU believe:

"Here then is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God the same as all Gods have done before you"
(Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, JOD 6:4; quoted in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith).

"As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become."
(fifth LDS President Lorenzo Snow)

"No prophet of record gave more complete and forceful explanations of the doctrine that men may become Gods than did the American Prophet."
(LDS Seventy Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages)

"The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like Himself"
(Brigham Young, JOD 3:93).

"That exaltation which the saints of all ages have so devoutly sought is godhood itself."
(LDS apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 566-567).
​

These types of statements are too numerous to list in a book-length response. That's Mormonism.

If you believe that Jesus commanded us to do something beyond the realm of possibility or that God is incapable of doing anything He wants with us, that's your problem.

That verse (Matthew 5:48) IN CONTEXT, doesn't mean to become a God. Sorry. :no: The Greek word translated as "perfect" -- teleios -- means completeness, or wholeness. It signifies that the thing being spoken of has reached a point where nothing that belongs to its essence is lost or left out. In other words, just as God is all that he can be, Christ wants us to reach our full potential and be everything that we were created to be.

God wants us to be teleios -- perfect, complete, not lacking, fully all that we were meant to be. This does NOT mean perfect in any sense of absolute perfection, or godhood. This is a Mormon assumption that Mormons bring into the text--an assumption based on their preconceived belief in human deification (i.e., progression to full godhood).

You know as well as I do that Mormons believe humans are of the same "GOD" species as God. We are, according to Mormonism, gods in embryo who merely need to progress on to full godhood as all gods have done before us.

You're quite a mind reader, aren't you. You know my "actual hope" and yet you've never even met me. I hope to become, by the grace of God, like Him. This does not mean that I will ever stop worshipping Him. On the contrary, I will worship Him with a fuller understanding of His majesty than I have now.

Right, just as I said, you hope to be a god. So why are you complaining. And I never said anything about you stopping your worship of him. Read the words of your own leaders (see above).

No kidding! We truly are the same species as God. He created us in His image, after His likeness. Last I knew, kittens grow up to be cats, puppies grow up to be dogs, and children of God grow up to be gods.

Well, you just said you believe exactly what I stated you believe. So, I'm sorry -- What are you arguing with?

That's more or less correct, with one qualification: You make it sound so automatic. God exalts those who have demonstrated their faithfulness. It's not just a matter of people just "becoming gods and goddesses" as a matter of course.

I never intended to make it sound any other way than the way you just noted it. Thank you. Yes, I agree, it is indeed, "those who have demonstrated their faithfulness." Yes, it does take a LOT of work.

Again, if you want to have any kind of dialogue with the Latter-day Saints on this forum, you might want to knock it off with the accusations.

I didn't see any accusation in the quotation you responded to here.

We can't possibly cover everything in a two or three posts, so how about dispensing with the put-downs and sarcasm and asking us questions if you don't believe we've covered everything as completely as we could.

It's a deal. I have found that there is a HUGE amount, almost insurmountable, TBH, of distrust between evangelicals and Mormons. It's very very negative. Kind of like Israel and the Palestinians. There is almost no possibility of talking because so much water has gone under the bridge. I offer some quotes from my book Inside Today's Mormonism (also titled Becoming Gods) as a way of showing my views (SEE PART 2 THAT FOLLOWS).

And I hope that those who are unfamiliar with Mormonism will recognize that if they really want to understand Mormonism, they will get a lot more accurate information by asking a Mormon than by asking an anti-Mormon.

I'm sorry, that is not necessarily true. Mormons are renowned for NOT discussing key aspects of their beliefs/doctrines and history with outsiders so as to not make their church appear odd and/or negative in any way. This has caused a great deal of confusion, especially with regard to Mormon history, certain aspects of which is routinely covered by the LDS Church and LDS historians in an effort to only produce "faith promoting" histories.

And again, I reject the label "anti-Mormon." I am a religion journalist who deals with all kinds of religions, including Mormonism. See ABANES.COM.

RA

 

[rabanes]

PART 2

"I have sought to heed the wise words of your current prophet (c. 2004), Gordon B. Hinckley: 'We must work harder to build mutual respect, an attitude of forbearance, with tolerance for another regardless of the doctrines and philosophies which we may espouse. Concerning these you and I may disagree. But we can do so with respect and civility.'"
-- Richard Abanes, Inside Today's Mormonism, p. 18



"[M]y sincere hope is that all of us will be able to live up to the admirable sentiments expressed in 2001 by Mormon apostle M. Russell Ballard. . . . . 'sometimes we will have to agree to disagree with you, but we can do so without being disagreeable.'"
-- Richard Abanes, Inside Today's Mormonism, p. 18



"The key to successful and peaceful interaction, as [Neal Maxwell] rightly observed, is good will."
-- Richard Abanes, Inside Today's Mormonism, p. 19



"Evangelicals can no longer view each other as foes. Neither group can afford to maintain animosity for the other."
-- Richard Abanes, Inside Today's Mormonism, p. 19



"It cannot be denied that this same Joseph Smith somehow produced a quite remarkable book, the Book of Mormon--which in many ways not only points to Jesus Christ, but also exhorts the world to live righteously before God.
-- Richard Abanes, Inside Today's Mormonism, p. 49



"Mormonism preaches a personal God who knows our needs, hears our prayers, and guides our steps. Mormons also see God as 'merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abundant in goodness.' The LDS manual Gospel Principles adds: 'God is perfect. . . .He is a God of love, mercy, charity, truth, power, faith, knowledge, and judgment.' Obviously, Mormons share with evangelicals a number of key observations about God."
-- Richard Abanes, Inside Today's Mormonism, p. 108



"Mormons believe that Christ was fully divine and look exclusively to him as the one in whom forgiveness for sins may be obtained. Mormons also believe that good works done in Jesus' name are only possible by God's grace, which equips, strengthens, and empowers them for such acts."
-- Richard Abanes, Inside Today's Mormonism, p. 178



"Having made all of the above clear, it would be negligent of me not to mention that a legitimate argument can indeed be made for calling Latter-day Saints 'Christian'"
-- Richard Abanes, Inside Today's Mormonism, p. 265



"Are we trying to minister to Mormons with integrity? Are we attempting to truly evangelize (spread the good news) to them. . . .or just anger them, hurt them, or bully them theologically? Are we really trying to listen to what a Mormon might be saying--to the point of even learning something from that person? . . . Do we see every Mormon as an individual person . . . or have they all just become a part of the impersonal enemy we so easily label 'The Mormons'?"
-- Richard Abanes, Inside Today's Mormonism, p. 280



"Mormons and mainstream Christians will certainly remain divided for some time -- perhaps always -- over many important issues. But this does not mean we need to aggravate the situation by mocking each other, demeaning each other's beliefs, or being unnecessarily antagonistic while interacting with each other"
-- Richard Abanes, Inside Today's Mormonism, p. 280



"[Daniel] Peterson [BYU professor], whom I consider a personal friend, has also given the following advice, which, I believe, demonstrates a keen understanding of the current state of LDS-evangelical interaction and how we need to take it to the next level:

[Some] take this as just, 'it's a competition you can score points.' You know, you can 'win on this' -- gratify your ego by defeating somebody on that point or something. That's not what it's really about. Resist that temptation. These issues are vastly important. Intrinsically. Not just because you're on one team or another.
​

-- Richard Abanes, Inside Today's Mormonism, p. 280



"It also must be admitted that both Mormons and evangelicals have been far to ready to attribute the worst of motives to each other. This, too, must end, as several LDS leaders have recently stated [quotes by Mormons M. Russell Ballard, Marvin J. Ashton]. . . .Is there any reason why both Mormons and evangelicals cannot live up to such wise counsel?"
-- Richard Abanes, Inside Today's Mormonism, p. 281

 

[rabanes]

1. What is your purpose for posting here? Is it or is it not to "expose the truth" about Mormonism? 2. How many actual LDS worship services have you attended in your lifetime? How many complete books written by living LDS General Authorities have you read from cover to cover? 3. Do you believe that anything short of "full-blown dishonesty" is somehow justifiable? Do you think God turns a blind eye to distortions, half-truths, quotations taken out of context, etc. as long as these are spoken in the interest of saving souls?

1. Someone referred to me in the OP. That landed me here. I posted because I found a few things said by Mormons that were not altogether clear and/or inaccurate. This is also a religious debate forum, no?

2A. Just a couple, but we've covered this issue before about needing to be part of a church/organization to understand it.

2B. Too many to count. Huge library, plus CD-roms, the works. I am a professioanl journalist, my friend, not some "anti-Momron" street preacher printing up pamphlets in his basement and tying on a pair of holy undergarments on to a pole in preparation for protesting outside the SLC temple.

3. Total honesty is paramount. The needs never justifies the means. But that is something I have found Mormons, especially LDS leaders and the Church in general, has not adopted as a guide for certain aspects of conduct, public relations, and interaction with others.

The official doctrine of the Church is and always has been that Jesus Christ was born of a virgiin. What is it about this that you don't understand? A woman who has had sexual intercourse is not a virgin. I thought all adults knew that. Apparently there's one who doesn't.

I'm thrilled you've asked this. You define "virgin" differently that early LDS leaders.

Early LDS leaders RE-DEFINED "virgin" to mean a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a MORTAL man. For example, LDS apostle Erastus Snow explained: "Christ was born of the Virgin Mary. . . . [T]he record teaches us that he was begotten by the power God, and not of man, and that she had no intercourse with mortal man in the flesh until after she gave birth to the Savior. . . ."

Interesting qualifier, don't you think? Especially in light of the LDS belief that Heavenly Father is not a "mortal man." He is an immortal man. Hence, Mary was still a technical "virgin" after intercourse with Heavenly Father -- an immortal man, as opposed to a mortal man.

This teaching is reflected plainly in the words of LDS apostle Bruce McConkie in the mid-20th century. He said Christ "was Begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 547).

There you go. Pretty clear. The key word is "immortal" --i.e., immortal father & immortal man vs. mortal father & mortal man.

Mary's intercourse with an immortal man (Heavenly Father) did not mean she was no longer a "virgin" in classic Mormon teachings. She remained a "virgin" until she had sex with Joseph, a mortal man. Interesting, huh?

This whole thing has never been repudiated or discussed or clarified by today's LDS leadership. It's been relegated to the "let's don't talk about this issue like we used to" pile.

RA