Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
I think that is a lot of tap dancing to maintain an iron age belief set.
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Both fully God and fully man
- Thread starter LightofTruth
- Start date
I think that is a lot of tap dancing to maintain an iron age belief set.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
Uhmn....I'm not a Trinitarian. I don't have any issues with Jesus praying to His Father, with Them being entirely separate Beings. That does not, in our view, mean that Jesus is NOT fully God. It makes sense to us. Whether it does to you is, well, (shrug)
And that's perfectly fine, i am not trying to change your mind or anything, just simply stating the "problems" i see with that particular belief.
Don't most of the Old Testament prophets start out by saying, God says or Thus Says the Lord? Its just a little confusing how that would be dicey if that is indeed what those who speak for him say. Like 1 Peter 4:11
Just a thought.
74x12
Well-Known Member
The writer is correct. Although I believe His soul is the soul of God. But other than that yes, He had a human body, mind and will. Otherwise He wouldn't need to pray "not my will but thine be done".
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Why do you think so? Jesus had one mind, one will, by the way. There are no scriptural contraindications.
David J
Member
We can't establish that Jesus ever existed, if he was divine, and what he thought.
That's a triple magnitude problem.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
Oh, well, true; 'thus sayeth the Lord" is a key phrase. It means "I got this straight from God; my own opinions don't count." That's when I was taught to go to God in prayer (and more than a little study) to confirm that it's revelation, not personal opinion.
When someone says 'God says....' rather than 'thus sayeth the Lord" he generally points to a bit of scripture, or quotes another prophet. Either way, what we are getting is God's word third hand. That's when we REALLY need to confirm the truth for ourselves.
Prophets are allowed to have personal opinions, too. It's up to US to figure out which is what, but for US, "Thus sayeth the Lord" (or something that means 'God Himself told me") means something different from 'It says right here in the Bible...." or "God says, RIGHT HERE IN THE BIBLE,"
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Asiatic, and Nestorian,
[g-d||man]
Two natures in one person, Jesus, not the same nature
[g-d||man]
Two natures in one person, Jesus, not the same nature
I was taught that Jesus was both God and man, but I was never taught that he was fully both. So according to my teaching, I don't know.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
First we need to define what it means to be fully man and what it means to be fully God.
For example, we might say the God is omniscient and man is not. So Jesus would be both omniscient and not omniscient at the same time.
He could say that only God knows something and at the same time be the God who does know that something.
Could you explain how this works. How can one person be both omniscient and not omniscient at the same time?
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
The reason they say he is both fully God and fully man is because they need to explain the Scripture.
For example, things are said and spoke of/by Jesus that can only be applied to being fully man. And things are spoke of/by Jesus that can only be applied to being fully God.
So Jesus would be both omnipresent and not omnipresent at the same time.he would be both omniscient and not omniscient at the same time...etc
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
They can't even figure out his name, they think it's Yehoshua
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Some churches are 'jesus name' only churches, though.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
A man cannot be God for the simple reason that
There is only ONE GOD and there cannot be another
THE LORD JESUS Christ is not God because His Father alone is the true God. Another biblical evidence proving that the Lord Jesus Christ is not God is His explicit pronouncement that He is a Man because the Bible clearly tells us that God is not Man and Man is not God.
GOD IS NOT MAN AND MAN IS NOT GOD
The Lord God Himself explicitly said that He is not Man:
“I will not execute the fierceness of My anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim. FOR I AM GOD, AND NOT MAN, The Holy One in your midst; And I will not come with terror.” (Hoseah 11:9 NKJV, emphasis mine)
The Lord God also said that Man is not God:
“Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyre, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Because thy heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet THOU ART MAN, AND NOT GOD, though thou didst set thy heart as the heart of God.” (Ezekiel 28:2 ASV, emphasis mine)
God is not Man because God is spirit:
“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24 NKJV)
A spirit has no flesh and bones:
“And He said to them, ‘Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES as you see I have.” (Luke 24:38-39 NKJV)
The Lord God is a spirit, thus, He does not have flesh and bones. While man is not a spirit because man does have flesh and bones:
“And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” (Genesis 6:3 NKJV)
Thus, God is not man because God is a spirit, He does not have flesh and bones, while man is not a spirit, he does have flesh and bones.
This biblical truth makes the belief that Jesus Christ is true God and true man an absurdity. If Christ is true God (a true God does not have flesh and bones) and also true man (a man does have flesh and bones), this makes Christ a true spirit and not a true spirit, does not have flesh and bones and does have flesh and bones. God cannot be the author of this absurdity because “God is not the author of confusion” (I Cor. 14:33 NKJV).
This is the truth written in the Holy Scriptures: God is not Man and Man is not God.
CHRIST SAID HE IS A MAN
The Lord Jesus Christ Himself explicitly said that He is a Man:
“I AM A MAN who has told you the truth which I heard from God, but you are trying to kill me. Abraham did nothing like that.” (John 8:40 NCV, emphasis mine)
When Jesus said that He is a man it is like saying that He is not God because it is written in the Bible that God is not Man and Man is not God. What further proves that Jesus is a Man and not God? Luke 24:36-39 reads:
“Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, ‘Peace to you.’ But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” (Luke 24:36-39 NKJV)
When the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to the disciples after His resurrection, the disciples taught they had seen a spirit. However, the Lord Jesus said to them, “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, FOR A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES AS YOU SEE I HAVE.”
The Lord Jesus Christ Himself said that God is a spirit, and He showed that He is not a spirit. Jesus Himself said that a “spirit does not have flesh and bones,” and He showed that He does have flesh and bones. Thus, in stating that He is a man and showing that He is not a spirit but rather does having flesh and bones is also an admission that He is not God.
THE BIBLE CLEARLY TEACHES
THAT JESUS CHRIST IS A MAN
The Old Testament prophecy regarding Christ says that He is a man:
“He is despised and rejected by men, A MAN of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.” (Isaiah 53:3 NKJV, emphasis mine)
God Himself said that Jesus Christ is a man:
“I still did not know that he was the one, but God, who sent me to baptize with water, had said to me, 'You will see the Spirit come down and stay on A MAN; he is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'” (John 1:33 TEV, emphasis mine)
THE LORD JESUS CHRIST REMAINS A MAN
EVEN HE IS NOW IN HEAVEN
The Bible explicitly said that Jesus is the one sitting at the right hand of God:
“If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.” (Colossians 3:1 NKJV)
And the Holy Scriptures clearly teaches that the one sitting at the right hand of God is a man:
“Let Your hand be upon the man of Your right hand, Upon the son of man whom You made strong for Yourself.” (Psalms 80:17 NKJV)
The reason why the apostles taught that the Lord Jesus Christ is a man even He is already in heaven:
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (I Timothy 2:5, NIV)
“People of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man. God clearly showed this to you by the miracles, wonders, and signs he did through Jesus. You all know this, because it happened right here among you.” (Acts 2:22 NCV)
Even on His Second Coming, the Lord Jesus Christ remains man in state of being:
“Because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” (Acts 17:31 NKJV)
CONCLUSION
There are hundreds of verses in the Bible that says that Jesus Christ is a man. Remember the biblical fact that God is not Man and Man is not God. Thus, the fact that the Bible explicitly pronounced that Jesus is a man is equivalent of saying that He is not God.
Christ’s statements in Luke 24:39 is also tacitly teaching us that He is not God. Remember that prior to this event, The Lord Jesus Christ had earlier instructed the disciples about the nature of God. He taught them that God is a spirit (cf. John 4:24). The apostles mistook Him for a spirit which is tantamount to falsely thinking of Christ as having the same nature as God or being God Himself. But, Jesus immediately corrected their wrong conclusion concerning His nature. He emphasized to them that He is not a spirit (Luke 24:39), which is equivalent to saying that He is not God in His state of being.
Jesus’ statement in John 8:40 and Luke 24:39 serve as His didactical teaching to anyone who would think of Him as God. The clarification He made to those who thought of Him as a spirit is a reminder to anyone who would mistakenly think of Him as God. Whenever someone has a question regarding the true nature of Jesus Christ, he should be reminded simply about Jesus’ own statements in Luke 24:39 and His acknowledgment of His nature in John 8:40 wherein He emphatically declared “I am a man.”
74x12
Well-Known Member
You have two natures. Jesus always existed as God and is the same yesterday, today and forever(Hebrews 13:5); but the human body of Jesus is created. As we read in Hebrews 10:5.
So in other words God indwelled a human body He created for Himself. The body is created; the Spirit of Jesus is not created.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
My question concerns the Trinitarian idea that Jesus has two minds and two wills. So, how can Jesus be both omniscient and not omniscient at the same time?
74x12
Well-Known Member
It's not necessarily a trinitarian idea that Jesus has both divine and human natures. I am not trinitarian.
As for Jesus being omniscient and not omniscient at the same time. I thought I explained that. Jesus human nature was limited as all humans are. But the Spirit of God is not limited.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
The body that was created has a brain that can think. It can grow and learn. On the other hand, the Spirit was not created and knows everything. It does not need to grow or learn anything.
The Trinitarian idea is that the mind of the Spirit indwelt a man who needed to grow and learn. Therefore, Jesus had two minds. One which began knowing nothing and another that knew everything.
The conclusion is that Jesus could sometimes be God and other times be man.
For example, he might say something like, "I don't have all the answers, I'm just a man". And others times he could say, "I know everything and have all the answers because I am God". And because Jesus is only one person, HE (singular person) knows everything, and HE (singular person) has limited knowledge.
Now how could any reasonable person believe such nonsense?
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
The Trinitarian claim is that Jesus is still both God and man. Now, suppose you were speaking to Jesus and asked him when he is going to return. He could either say that he does not know or that he does know. It would all depend on which mind he was speaking from.
Why not ask to speak to God when asking Jesus that question? I would ask: "You are omniscient God, so tell me when are you going to return?", "Let me ask the God, not the man".
Then he might say, "It's not for you to know, and neither is it for me to know" (even though HE does know)