Both fully God and fully man

[LightofTruth]

What's even more absurd is that the one mind of Jesus could ask his other mind questions. And sometimes get answers and other times not.

The truth is much more simple and way more reasonable.

 

[LightofTruth]

It's not necessarily a trinitarian idea that Jesus has both divine and human natures. I am not trinitarian.

As for Jesus being omniscient and not omniscient at the same time. I thought I explained that. Jesus human nature was limited as all humans are. But the Spirit of God is not limited.

I have another question
If Jesus is a Spirit and God that indwelt the body and mind of a man, why would it be necessary that the Spirit of the Father (the Holy Spirit) be given to to Jesus?

The answer seems to be that the Holy Spirit was only given to the man Jesus but not the Spirit God Jesus.

This indicates that the man Jesus needed to be possessed of the Spirit of the Father God rather than being possessed by the Spirit of the Son God. Therefore, the Son God did not possess the man Jesus but was a distinct mind that needed the mind of the Father in order to do anything.

 

[columbus]

Eh...I'm more likely to tell you it's because you don't think and can't get your mind away from all your preconcieved notions of what God can/must do in order to be God.

I nearly stopped reading at the end of this sentence.
Religionists telling me that I don't think and that I don't understand religion, but they do, are really pretty aggravating and a waste of my time talking to.
As a general rule.

....and I won't ever start the conversation with 'God says.' I may start it with 'I believe that God says," but frankly except for personal prayer, everything we have from God came through some person, so saying "God Says" is a bit of a dicey statement to make. First one has to go confirm that He REALLY said 'that,' and that does involve some work and willingness to look foolish, even if only to oneself.

Try telling that to the religionists who commonly do.

There's a myriad ways of saying it. "The Bible says..." is another one. Etc. Etc.

How about instead of explaining this to me, you make your point to Prestor John, InChrist, Shia Muslim, or any of the legion of religionists who do support their opinions with some variation on "God says..."? They're the ones who actually do, instead of me who just objects to people doing it.
Tom

 

[dianaiad]

I nearly stopped reading at the end of this sentence.
Religionists telling me that I don't think and that I don't understand religion, but they do, are really pretty aggravating and a waste of my time talking to.
As a general rule.

Try telling that to the religionists who commonly do.

There's a myriad ways of saying it. "The Bible says..." is another one. Etc. Etc.

How about instead of explaining this to me, you make your point to Prestor John, InChrist, Shia Muslim, or any of the legion of religionists who do support their opinions with some variation on "God says..."? They're the ones who actually do, instead of me who just objects to people doing it.
Tom

Tom, I'm a 'religionist." A theist and a pretty 'true believing' one, at that, As one of those, if I tell you something that goes against your preconceived notions of what 'religiousnists' all do, you can no longer throw out the generalizations of 'religionists all do this or say that..." I am not unique...or even all that rare in my ideas. As well, since you seem to be telling me that 'religionists' don't think past their own indoctrinations, I can certainly reply in kind. I have found that, as you just mentioned when you 'dearly stopped reading at the end of this sentence,' some people genuinely do NOT think past their personal convictions.

And I did mention 'the Bible says,' in my response. Did you miss that?

Tell me: how is it that you can spread your generalizations from 'the religionists who commonly do' to ALL religionists do," but I can't let you know that I run across non-believers and anti-theists who simply do not bother to think things through if the concept being presented MIGHT mess with their world view?

But I'll say this again: "The Bible Says...." means that the version of the Bible being quoted, as interpreted by the reader, says something. That's not the same thing as "God Says....

As to telling anything to 'religionists who commonly do..." Why should I be responsible for what anybody else thinks or says? Are you responsible for everything every non-believer thinks or believes? Remember: my own religious group is pretty far away from being Orthodox...or orthodox (small 'o') It's not even Protestant. We are 'restorationists.' RF gets the hierarchy right with us. That means we disagree with pretty much everybody, and except that I AM a 'religionist,' (theist) you can't hold ME accountable for what any other theist claims.

 

[columbus]

Tom, I'm a 'religionist." A theist and a pretty 'true believing' one, at that, As one of those, if I tell you something that goes against your preconceived notions of what 'religiousnists' all do,

Yes I know you're a Mormon religionist.

So, let me cut to the chase. Lots of Mormons, from CNorman to Prestor John, have told me that I am the problem because I have been married to the same guy for over 25 years(his birthday was yesterday Aug 20). That's just here on RF.

Why don't you put as many posts into telling them that they're wrong as you have me? Why do you keep talking about and to me? When did you last contradict Prestor John?
Tom

 

[dianaiad]

Yes I know you're a Mormon religionist.

So, let me cut to the chase. Lots of Mormons, from CNorman to Prestor John, have told me that I am the problem because I have been married to the same guy for over 25 years(his birthday was yesterday Aug 20). That's just here on RF.

Why don't you put as many posts into telling them that they're wrong as you have me? Why do you keep talking about and to me? When did you last contradict Prestor John?
Tom

I have never seen any posts from either CNormon or Prestor John. You sure they post here, and that they are LDS?

OK, never mind. Found Prestor John...though I've honestly never seen his posts, as I remember.

Unless he's one of the guys arguing for young earth creationism? I honestly don't remember. Forgive me for that.

CNorman doesn't show up on a member search and I sure don't remember discussing anything with him.

I do tend to argue with robocop frequently, though, don't I?

Hmnn.

 

[moorea944]

Below is a quote from Desiring God website which explains how Jesus could be both fully God and fully man. The writer says:

"Jesus is just as fully human as the rest of us, for just as he has all of the essential elements of the Godhead, he has all the essential elements of human nature: a human body, a human soul, a human mind, a human will, and human emotions. His human mind was not replaced by his divine mind. Rather, he has both a human and divine mind."

According to the writer, Jesus has two minds and two wills.

So, what do you think?

Personally, I think it's hogwash.

I like your post. Thank you for that. Just a few comments on that.

One cannot be fully God and fully man at the same time. That just doesnt make sense. It's almost like a Greek God myths of old, like Zeus and Pluto, etc, or whoever. There was two wills, God's will and Jesus's will. Jesus always did his father's will. Never what he wanted to do. Because Jesus came in his father's name.

Plus, the Godhead is explained in 1 Cor 11v3, every simple to understand. "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." I look at these verses and think, how can you put a trinitarian God into that.

And that writter who says that Jesus has two minds and two wills? Ugghhhh.........

But anyhow, thanks for the post!!

 

[74x12]

The body that was created has a brain that can think. It can grow and learn. On the other hand, the Spirit was not created and knows everything. It does not need to grow or learn anything.

The Trinitarian idea is that the mind of the Spirit indwelt a man who needed to grow and learn. Therefore, Jesus had two minds. One which began knowing nothing and another that knew everything.

The conclusion is that Jesus could sometimes be God and other times be man.

For example, he might say something like, "I don't have all the answers, I'm just a man". And others times he could say, "I know everything and have all the answers because I am God". And because Jesus is only one person, HE (singular person) knows everything, and HE (singular person) has limited knowledge.

Now how could any reasonable person believe such nonsense?

Well that's not really an argument. "how could any reasonable person believe such nonsense?" is an arbitrary question. I don't think it's relevant.

As for me, I am perfectly satisfied in believing what I do. I have no doubt about it at all.

The Trinitarian claim is that Jesus is still both God and man. Now, suppose you were speaking to Jesus and asked him when he is going to return. He could either say that he does not know or that he does know. It would all depend on which mind he was speaking from.
Why not ask to speak to God when asking Jesus that question? I would ask: "You are omniscient God, so tell me when are you going to return?", "Let me ask the God, not the man".

Then he might say, "It's not for you to know, and neither is it for me to know" (even though HE does know)

Jesus spoke by the mind of God --as you call it-- through the gift of prophecy. He wasn't switching minds back and forth like some kind of alter ego. All the prophets were filled with the holy Spirit and so were able to speak the messages God gave them.

But, Jesus had a greater gift of prophecy than previous prophets. Because as John the baptist points out the Spirit was given to Jesus without measure. (John 3:34) Basically, Jesus had all the gifts of the previous prophets and without any limit.

I have another question
If Jesus is a Spirit and God that indwelt the body and mind of a man, why would it be necessary that the Spirit of the Father (the Holy Spirit) be given to to Jesus?

The answer seems to be that the Holy Spirit was only given to the man Jesus but not the Spirit God Jesus.

This indicates that the man Jesus needed to be possessed of the Spirit of the Father God rather than being possessed by the Spirit of the Son God. Therefore, the Son God did not possess the man Jesus but was a distinct mind that needed the mind of the Father in order to do anything.

When the holy Spirit descended like a dove on Jesus it was to anoint Him so He could be the "Messiah" which means anointed one. God is omnipresent and can send His Spirit out. This is not an issue.

As for your confusion about the Spirit of the Father vs. the Spirit of the Son. That doesn't really make sense. God is only one and one Spirit. There are no separate spirits for Father and Son. So that's all unnecessary confusion brought on by the trinity doctrine.

BTW, not even trinitarians believe the Father and Son have separate Spirits. They believe they are "distinct" persons but one in "essence". I don't believe even that. I believe God is one person, one essence and was simply manifesting Himself in different ways.

So to make it more easily understood; God sent His Spirit to indwell a human body at birth. Then, once He was baptized; God sent His Spirit again to anoint Him for the ministry He was going to do. Same Spirit, but omnipresent. Sent two times.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Well that's not really an argument. "how could any reasonable person believe such nonsense?" is an arbitrary question. I don't think it's relevant.

As for me, I am perfectly satisfied in believing what I do. I have no doubt about it at all.

Jesus spoke by the mind of God --as you call it-- through the gift of prophecy. He wasn't switching minds back and forth like some kind of alter ego. All the prophets were filled with the holy Spirit and so were able to speak the messages God gave them.

But, Jesus had a greater gift of prophecy than previous prophets. Because as John the baptist points out the Spirit was given to Jesus without measure. (John 3:34) Basically, Jesus had all the gifts of the previous prophets and without any limit.

When the holy Spirit descended like a dove on Jesus it was to anoint Him so He could be the "Messiah" which means anointed one. God is omnipresent and can send His Spirit out. This is not an issue.

As for your confusion about the Spirit of the Father vs. the Spirit of the Son. That doesn't really make sense. God is only one and one Spirit. There are no separate spirits for Father and Son. So that's all unnecessary confusion brought on by the trinity doctrine.

BTW, not even trinitarians believe the Father and Son have separate Spirits. They believe they are "distinct" persons but one in "essence". I don't believe even that. I believe God is one person, one essence and was simply manifesting Himself in different ways.

So to make it more easily understood; God sent His Spirit to indwell a human body at birth. Then, once He was baptized; God sent His Spirit again to anoint Him for the ministry He was going to do. Same Spirit, but omnipresent. Sent two times.

So when Jesus prayed to the Father, he was praying to himself? If Jesus was just a manifestation of the Father then that must be true. But does it make sense that he would prau to himself?

 

[74x12]

So when Jesus prayed to the Father, he was praying to himself? If Jesus was just a manifestation of the Father then that must be true. But does it make sense that he would prau to himself?

Yes, indeed. He had to live by faith like the rest of us. He is the Savior of humanity. It behooved Him to be made like His brethren in all respects. Even tempted like us. He is the "second Adam" and the promised seed of Abraham.

This is why Jesus took on human form and this is why He took all power in heaven and earth in human form. To save humanity through the power He had promised to Himself. So, to put it simply. God in times past promised all power in heaven and earth to a human being. This human being would be the Savior of all humanity. However, God made this promise; knowing that He Himself would come in human form to take the power and by doing so; redeem all those who believed in Him through that power.

Because Jesus is given all power in heaven and in earth only after the crucifixion through the resurrection. So that He can save humanity and reconcile them to the Father.

Hebrews 2:16-18
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

So, now Jesus sits on the right hand waiting until all of humanities enemies are put under His human feet. He does this for us, by becoming Human; He makes our enemies His enemies. And so they will be defeated for us.

Once Jesus mission is accomplished and He has redeemed a spiritual nation who is the Bride of Christ and He has washed them in His own blood and cleansed away all guilt. And this nation is perfect in every way. Then He will present them unto the Father as a redeemed and worthy people and He will be at their head as the "Son of man" and "head of the body".

This will mean that the whole body and head of the body will be the temple of God forever. A fitting abode and place able to give rest to the Father. Because God is love and God rests in His love as it is written in Zephaniah 3:17.

So this was the purpose of creation and redemption. To make God a fitting resting place which is His holy nation and is also called the new Jerusalem.

Because no physical temple could ever give rest to this God. Even the heavens of the heavens cannot contain Him. But this new Jerusalem will satisfy His desire to love and so He will rest. Which is the 7th day that is coming. The true Sabbath of God. And so God wants people to join in His rest. Which is joy unspeakable and full of glory as it is written.

 

[74x12]

So when Jesus prayed to the Father, he was praying to himself? If Jesus was just a manifestation of the Father then that must be true. But does it make sense that he would prau to himself?

It should come at no surprise. After all, in Romans 8:26 we see the holy Spirit prays for us (whoever has the holy Spirit that is) with groanings that cannot be uttered. So God constantly prays to Himself in countless people filled with the holy Spirit. And it's no surprise that Jesus therefore is God and yet prayed to God.

 

[sojourner]

The moment "God" becomes anything other than "God" he, ceases to be a "God".

God didn't become something other than God. Jesus is fully God and fully human.

Jesus didn't exist. I'm not proposing anything on part of a fictional character.

How could you be so sure, when the majority of biblical experts and scholars think otherwise?

Its not about being an expert, its about simple logic, following the Christian definition of God which is " God to be transcendent (wholly independent of, and removed from, the material universe) " there are other definitions as well but, this seems to be the most befitting of a God and creator of all things.

In the Xtian definition, God is also imminent. Who died and gave you the authority to decide what definition is "most fitting?"

 

[sojourner]

Uhmn....I'm not a Trinitarian. I don't have any issues with Jesus praying to His Father, with Them being entirely separate Beings. That does not, in our view, mean that Jesus is NOT fully God. It makes sense to us. Whether it does to you is, well, (shrug)

Wait... God and Jesus "entirely separate?" How do you reconcile that with "The Father and I are One?"

 

[sojourner]

A man cannot be God for the simple reason that
There is only ONE GOD and there cannot be another

THE LORD JESUS Christ is not God because His Father alone is the true God. Another biblical evidence proving that the Lord Jesus Christ is not God is His explicit pronouncement that He is a Man because the Bible clearly tells us that God is not Man and Man is not God.


GOD IS NOT MAN AND MAN IS NOT GOD

The Lord God Himself explicitly said that He is not Man:

“I will not execute the fierceness of My anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim. FOR I AM GOD, AND NOT MAN, The Holy One in your midst; And I will not come with terror.” (Hoseah 11:9 NKJV, emphasis mine)

The Lord God also said that Man is not God:

“Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyre, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Because thy heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet THOU ART MAN, AND NOT GOD, though thou didst set thy heart as the heart of God.” (Ezekiel 28:2 ASV, emphasis mine)

God is not Man because God is spirit:

“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24 NKJV)

A spirit has no flesh and bones:

“And He said to them, ‘Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES as you see I have.” (Luke 24:38-39 NKJV)

The Lord God is a spirit, thus, He does not have flesh and bones. While man is not a spirit because man does have flesh and bones:

“And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” (Genesis 6:3 NKJV)

Thus, God is not man because God is a spirit, He does not have flesh and bones, while man is not a spirit, he does have flesh and bones.

This biblical truth makes the belief that Jesus Christ is true God and true man an absurdity. If Christ is true God (a true God does not have flesh and bones) and also true man (a man does have flesh and bones), this makes Christ a true spirit and not a true spirit, does not have flesh and bones and does have flesh and bones. God cannot be the author of this absurdity because “God is not the author of confusion” (I Cor. 14:33 NKJV).

This is the truth written in the Holy Scriptures: God is not Man and Man is not God.


CHRIST SAID HE IS A MAN

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself explicitly said that He is a Man:

“I AM A MAN who has told you the truth which I heard from God, but you are trying to kill me. Abraham did nothing like that.” (John 8:40 NCV, emphasis mine)

When Jesus said that He is a man it is like saying that He is not God because it is written in the Bible that God is not Man and Man is not God. What further proves that Jesus is a Man and not God? Luke 24:36-39 reads:

“Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, ‘Peace to you.’ But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” (Luke 24:36-39 NKJV)

When the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to the disciples after His resurrection, the disciples taught they had seen a spirit. However, the Lord Jesus said to them, “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, FOR A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES AS YOU SEE I HAVE.”

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself said that God is a spirit, and He showed that He is not a spirit. Jesus Himself said that a “spirit does not have flesh and bones,” and He showed that He does have flesh and bones. Thus, in stating that He is a man and showing that He is not a spirit but rather does having flesh and bones is also an admission that He is not God.


THE BIBLE CLEARLY TEACHES
THAT JESUS CHRIST IS A MAN

The Old Testament prophecy regarding Christ says that He is a man:

“He is despised and rejected by men, A MAN of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.” (Isaiah 53:3 NKJV, emphasis mine)

God Himself said that Jesus Christ is a man:

“I still did not know that he was the one, but God, who sent me to baptize with water, had said to me, 'You will see the Spirit come down and stay on A MAN; he is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'” (John 1:33 TEV, emphasis mine)


THE LORD JESUS CHRIST REMAINS A MAN
EVEN HE IS NOW IN HEAVEN

The Bible explicitly said that Jesus is the one sitting at the right hand of God:

“If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.” (Colossians 3:1 NKJV)

And the Holy Scriptures clearly teaches that the one sitting at the right hand of God is a man:

“Let Your hand be upon the man of Your right hand, Upon the son of man whom You made strong for Yourself.” (Psalms 80:17 NKJV)

The reason why the apostles taught that the Lord Jesus Christ is a man even He is already in heaven:

“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (I Timothy 2:5, NIV)

“People of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man. God clearly showed this to you by the miracles, wonders, and signs he did through Jesus. You all know this, because it happened right here among you.” (Acts 2:22 NCV)

Even on His Second Coming, the Lord Jesus Christ remains man in state of being:

“Because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” (Acts 17:31 NKJV)


CONCLUSION

There are hundreds of verses in the Bible that says that Jesus Christ is a man. Remember the biblical fact that God is not Man and Man is not God. Thus, the fact that the Bible explicitly pronounced that Jesus is a man is equivalent of saying that He is not God.

Christ’s statements in Luke 24:39 is also tacitly teaching us that He is not God. Remember that prior to this event, The Lord Jesus Christ had earlier instructed the disciples about the nature of God. He taught them that God is a spirit (cf. John 4:24). The apostles mistook Him for a spirit which is tantamount to falsely thinking of Christ as having the same nature as God or being God Himself. But, Jesus immediately corrected their wrong conclusion concerning His nature. He emphasized to them that He is not a spirit (Luke 24:39), which is equivalent to saying that He is not God in His state of being.

Jesus’ statement in John 8:40 and Luke 24:39 serve as His didactical teaching to anyone who would think of Him as God. The clarification He made to those who thought of Him as a spirit is a reminder to anyone who would mistakenly think of Him as God. Whenever someone has a question regarding the true nature of Jesus Christ, he should be reminded simply about Jesus’ own statements in Luke 24:39 and His acknowledgment of His nature in John 8:40 wherein He emphatically declared “I am a man.”

...aaaaand then there's John 1.
There's the resurrection problem.
There's Thomas' exclamation.

 

[sojourner]

My question concerns the Trinitarian idea that Jesus has two minds and two wills. So, how can Jesus be both omniscient and not omniscient at the same time?

Except that's not the Trinitarian idea. "Let the SAME mind be in you that was also in Christ Jesus." I don't think this is a dualistic argument.

 

[sojourner]

It's not necessarily a trinitarian idea that Jesus has both divine and human natures.

It is, actually.

 

[Deeje]

According to the website, Jesus could have a mind that recognized his Father as his God, and another mind that recognized himself to be God?
Two minds within one person in conflict with themselves rather than one mind seeking to do the will of God.

LOL...these days they would hospitalize him and treat him for multiple personality disorder....

 

[dianaiad]

Wait... God and Jesus "entirely separate?" How do you reconcile that with "The Father and I are One?"

The same way one reconciles this:

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

So...He says that "the Father and I are One." And then He explains what that means. Evidently it doesn't mean what you think it means. Unless you think that the entire human race is of 'one substance' with Deity? Or can be? Or something?

Certainly viewing it the way I do allows me to reconcile all the verses in the NT that talk about being 'one' with the Father...as well as all the verses which have Jesus having conversations with His Father, and at the end of His life, asking God the Father why He (the Father) had 'forsaken' Him (Jesus).

To us, it's no problem at all. It only becomes one with Trinitarians and Modalists. Oh, and Modalists who think they are really Trinitarians.

 

[sojourner]

The same way one reconciles this:

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

So...He says that "the Father and I are One." And then He explains what that means. Evidently it doesn't mean what you think it means. Unless you think that the entire human race is of 'one substance' with Deity? Or can be? Or something?

Certainly viewing it the way I do allows me to reconcile all the verses in the NT that talk about being 'one' with the Father...as well as all the verses which have Jesus having conversations with His Father, and at the end of His life, asking God the Father why He (the Father) had 'forsaken' Him (Jesus).

To us, it's no problem at all. It only becomes one with Trinitarians and Modalists. Oh, and Modalists who think they are really Trinitarians.

None of that sounds entirely separate, though. It sounds like there is great unity.

 

[LightofTruth]

Except that's not the Trinitarian idea. "Let the SAME mind be in you that was also in Christ Jesus." I don't think this is a dualistic argument.

It depends on which Trinitarian idea you're talking about. There are many.