• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Both VP candidates have authoritarian leanings :(

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Walz's response of "fire in a theater" is evasive AND factually incorrect.
No, it's neither. You need to explain how and why.

He danced around questions of free speech, correct?
Clearly not. He's providing an example of a reasonable way in which we do limit speech. He wasn't given a chance to explain his position on free speech in a specific way because it wasn't his question, nor his time.

I find it odd that you think this one remark is just as indicative of authoritarian tendencies as being unable to acknowledge the legitimate result of a democratic election. Feels like pretty obvious reaching to use this to say he "wants to limit free speech in order to limit "hate speech"", especially considering he said nothing of the sort.

What do you think "shouting fire in a crowded theatre" refers to?
 
Last edited:

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I see how limiting free speech is authoritarian, but how is questioning an election result authoritarian?
There's a difference between "questioning an election result" and "outright stating the election was rigged/false/undemocratic" without any kind of evidence and contrary to all available evidence, telling millions of people this, and then taking steps to try and overturn a democratic election with a false slate of electors and never admitting - regardless of all facts - that you lost.

Wouldn't it be authoritarian to prevent people from questioning the result of an election?
Which is more authoritarian: the person who acknowledges the legitimate results of a democratic election, or the person who - regardless of how much evidence shows to the contrary - asserts that the popular vote of a democratic election is false and should be overturned in their favour and draws up fake electors and organises a mass protest against the election being ratified?

See, when you actually look at what people actually do and what actually occurred, the framing of "questioning the election result" is an incredibly obvious manipulation.

A man deliberately and knowingly shouted "fire" in a crowded theatre when they knew there was no fire. The resulting panic resulted in several people being trampled to death, dozens of severe injuries and significant damage to the building.
"Well, what's wrong with letting people know there's a fire?"
 
Last edited:

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I see how limiting free speech is authoritarian, but how is questioning an election result authoritarian?
Wouldn't it be authoritarian to prevent people from questioning the result of an election?

Are you categorizing all of trumps actions concerning the 2020 election as "questioning an election result" ? For example, when 60 judges from across the country declare that the election was fair, were trump's actions still just "questioning"?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I see how limiting free speech is authoritarian, but how is questioning an election result authoritarian?
Wouldn't it be authoritarian to prevent people from questioning the result of an election?
What matters is the motive & surrounding pattern
of behavior in "questioning" (actually challenging)
an election. Vance repeats the lie that the election
was stolen, & has no criticism of Trump's many efforts
to overturn it. So Vance's tacit & not-so-tacit support
for Trump's treasonous attempt to over-throw the
government are indeed authoritarian.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Can you rephrase his "reasonable way to limit speech" ? I suspect I will disagree as to its reasonableness.
I suspect allowing you to respond selectively to what I write allows you too much wiggle-room to evade the actual point, which I clearly laid out and you omitted from this quote.

Respond to my whole argument, or don't bother.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I suspect allowing you to respond selectively to what I write allows you too much wiggle-room to evade the actual point, which I clearly laid out and you omitted from this quote.

Respond to my whole argument, or don't bother.
You continue to act as though you think you're the boss :)
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
Here's the exchange I was referring to, concerning free speech:

Which doesn't have your OP's words used by Walz (you actually put them in quotes) though, does it?

Do you think your use of quoted words that couldn't be found although you said they were actual "moments from the debate" is...
factually incorrect
?


As for the idea of private entities limiting misinformation on their own platforms: this, as has been pointed out before - is not censorship. Here's where Vance's authoritarianism would come into play:

Immediately after Trump’s disastrous September debate, conservatives, including Trump himself, began calling for ABC News to lose its broadcast license for fact-checking Trump’s lies about Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio. These threats of state retaliation against media outlets—or anyone who speaks out against Trump—illustrate that what conservatives mean when they talk about free speech is a legal right to use private platforms as venues for right-wing propaganda, whether or not those platforms wish to be used that way. That is a form of censorship far more authoritarian than private social-media platforms deciding they don’t want to carry rants about COVID shots putting microchips in your blood that can receive signals from alien invaders.​
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Immediately after Trump’s disastrous September debate, conservatives, including Trump himself, began calling for ABC News to lose its broadcast license for fact-checking Trump’s lies about Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio. These threats of state retaliation against media outlets—or anyone who speaks out against Trump—illustrate that what conservatives mean when they talk about free speech is a legal right to use private platforms as venues for right-wing propaganda, whether or not those platforms wish to be used that way. That is a form of censorship far more authoritarian than private social-media platforms deciding they don’t want to carry rants about COVID shots putting microchips in your blood that can receive signals from alien invaders.

Several times on this thread it's been suggested that I'm equating the authoritarian inclinations of the two VP candidates. I'm not.

I'm only pointing out that they both have "some" such inclinations.

As for factually incorrect, the whole "fire in a theater" quote is often misused, as Walz did in the debate, and the way he used it is factually incorrect. It's worth reading up on the frequent misunderstanding around this quote as it's a common phrase in conversations about free speech.

To me, a VP candidate should not make such a mistake. Now don't get me wrong, I would never vote for trump, I just think the Dems need to stop lobbing softballs to the GOP.
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
Several times on this thread it's been suggested that I'm equating the authoritarian inclinations of the two VP candidates. I'm not.

I'm only pointing out that they both have "some" such inclinations.

As for factually incorrect, the whole "fire in a theater" quote is often misused, as Walz did in the debate, and the way he used it is factually incorrect. It's worth reading up on the frequent misunderstanding around this quote as it's a common phrase in conversations about free speech.

To me, a VP candidate should not make such a mistake. Now don't get me wrong, I would never vote for trump, I just think the Dems need to stop lobbing softballs to the GOP.

I already know how it can be misunderstood, thanks anyway. And yes, Walz was incorrect, but the fact remains that Vance would stand behind Trump's authoritarianism because he shares that same authoritarianist bent, and that's far more important than any mistaken use of a quote from a Supreme Court opinion.

When your actual thread title is "Both VP candidates have authoritarian leanings" then yes, you've given them equal weight, whether you meant to or not. And when you used quotation marks around a phrase that wasn't uttered by the person you attributed them to, you further muddied the water.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I already know how it can be misunderstood, thanks anyway. And yes, Walz was incorrect, but the fact remains that Vance would stand behind Trump's authoritarianism because he shares that same authoritarianist bent, and that's far more important than any mistaken use of a quote from a Supreme Court opinion.

When your actual thread title is "Both VP candidates have authoritarian leanings" then yes, you've given them equal weight, whether you meant to or not. And when you used quotation marks around a phrase that wasn't uttered by the person you attributed them to, you further muddied the water.
Yes, yes, I've already amended that mistake. But good for you to keep bringing it up, sigh.

The point is that the Dems need to stop lobbing political softballs to the GOP. The GOP are not stupid and they will use those things against the Dems. So even though the GOP is indeed more authoritarian, the Dems need to drop any hint of that themselves or it will be used against them.

As you know, there are still tens of millions of people lined up to vote for trump. The Dems can't give the GOP any fuel to use to keep those trump voters riled up.
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
Yes, yes, I've already amended that mistake. But good for you to keep bringing it up, sigh.

The point is that the Dems need to stop lobbing political softballs to the GOP. The GOP are not stupid and they will use those things against the Dems. So even though the GOP is indeed more authoritarian, the Dems need to drop any hint of that themselves or it will be used against them.

As you know, there are still tens of millions of people lined up to vote for trump. The Dems can't give the GOP any fuel to use to keep those trump voters riled up.

Yet the OP stands uncorrected. You may not be able to edit it anymore but you could at the time I first questioned the accuracy.

Those lined up to vote for Trump will vote for him come hell or high water because they're a cult who want to live in their ignorance. A misuse of a quote by Walz in a debate that likely few of them watched will not change that fact, so I think you're assigning it more weight than it deserves, considering Walz came out quite well afterwards.

Screenshot 2024-10-04 at 7.18.34 AM.png
Screenshot 2024-10-04 at 7.18.57 AM.png
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Those lined up to vote for Trump will vote for him come hell or high water because they're a cult who want to live in their ignorance. A misuse of a quote by Walz in a debate that likely few of them watched will not change that fact, so I think you're assigning it more weight than it deserves, considering Walz came out quite well afterwards.
As a general rule, we can only influence people who are on the fence.

With that said, the GOP will twist the words of the Dems to try to scare the undecided. So if the Dems go on and on about attacking "misinformation" there is a germ of truth to saying that they are promoting censorship. The GOP will use that germ, and distort it.
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
As a general rule, we can only influence people who are on the fence.

You weren't talking about influencing people who are on the fence:

As you know, there are still tens of millions of people lined up to vote for trump. The Dems can't give the GOP any fuel to use to keep those trump voters riled up.

My point stands, as does the fact that you could have corrected the misleading information in your OP and you chose not to.

Not gonna beat another dead horse, so that's it.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Are you categorizing all of trumps actions concerning the 2020 election as "questioning an election result" ? For example, when 60 judges from across the country declare that the election was fair, were trump's actions still just "questioning"?
Yes, that would be questioning the election result by definition, but, more to the point, by questioning strict obedience to the government at the expense of the freedom of the voters, Trump would be acting antithetically to authoritarianism by definition.

There's a difference between "questioning an election result" and "outright stating the election was rigged/false/undemocratic" without any kind of evidence and contrary to all available evidence, telling millions of people this, and then taking steps to try and overturn a democratic election with a false slate of electors and never admitting - regardless of all facts - that you lost.
Supposing so, are you able to articulate how this would be an "authoritarian leaning" (per thread title)?

Which is more authoritarian: the person who acknowledges the legitimate results of a democratic election, or the person who - regardless of how much evidence shows to the contrary - asserts that the popular vote of a democratic election is false and should be overturned in their favour and draws up fake electors and organises a mass protest against the election being ratified?
acknowledging the legitimate results of an election, sounds exactly like you are favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, and if you do so at the expense of the freedom of the people to question the result of the election, then you are undoubtedly being authoritarian by definition.
Moreover, the freedom of people to seek lawful remedy or to protest is antithetical to authoritarianism.

See, when you actually look at what people actually do and what actually occurred, the framing of "questioning the election result" is an incredibly obvious manipulation.
To be clear, the OP suggested that Vance not admitting that Trump lost the election is authoritarian. But if you favor, compelled speech, that is forcing Vance to say Trump lost the election, then you have an authoritarian leaning. In other words, you would favor the enforcement of authority over Vance's right to free speech.

A man deliberately and knowingly shouted "fire" in a crowded theatre when they knew there was no fire. The resulting panic resulted in several people being trampled to death, dozens of severe injuries and significant damage to the building.
"Well, what's wrong with letting people know there's a fire?"
Do you think shouting fire in a crowded theatre is an example of authoritarian behavior? If so, why?

What matters is the motive & surrounding pattern
of behavior in "questioning" (actually challenging)
an election. Vance repeats the lie that the election
was stolen, & has no criticism of Trump's many efforts
to overturn it. So Vance's tacit & not-so-tacit support
for Trump's treasonous attempt to over-throw the
government are indeed authoritarian.
Can you explain how the "motive & surrounding pattern of behavior" is, in your view, authoritarian rather than anti-authoritarian?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Can you explain how the "motive & surrounding pattern of behavior" is, in your view, authoritarian rather than anti-authoritarian?
Authoritarian efforts.
- Trump executed a multi-faceted plan to over-throw
the 2020 election.
- There was no evidence for Trump's & Magas' claims
of a stolen election.
- Vance supports the claim of a stolen election.
- All of them are already alleging election fraud by Dems.
- Trump promised Christians that if he wins, they'll never
have to vote again.
- Trump promised to be a "dictator".
- Trump promised to prosecute political foes in the media
& politics.
- Trump has argued before SCOTUS the right of a President
to assassinate American political rivals.
- Trump's Magas issue death threats to election workers,
meteorologists, & anyone Trump is hostile to.

Do you see the above as authoritarian or anti-authoritarian?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, that would be questioning the election result by definition, but, more to the point, by questioning strict obedience to the government at the expense of the freedom of the voters, Trump would be acting antithetically to authoritarianism by definition.

Complete, unadulterated nonsense! Trump tells Hannity that he will become a "dictator on day 1" and you can tell Hannity's response that he was somewhat shocked by that. Trump notices his reaction and then says that he would back off after that. Trump later tells a conservative Christian group that when he's elected that they won't ever have to vote again.

What about these don't you understand???
 
Top