British Israelism?

[Ebionite]

So far, there is no **Hebrew Phrase** like that.

Who gets to define what are legitimate phrases and what are not?

It's not obvious. Words that sound similar in two different languages are not similar.

Now you're trying to dictate how the word "similar" can be used. The words fore and four are similar in the sense that they are homonyms, just as British and בר'ת א'ש are pretty much homonyms.

Except that to many folks, including me, it's a bris, not a brit

That mispronunciation is your problem.

I'm not familiar with it, to be honest. So I'm neither for nor against it. I'm just ignorant

There's a difference between being ignorant using using ignorance as a defence.

 

[dybmh]

Who gets to define what are legitimate phrases and what are not?

In order for it to be legit, someone else needs to accept this besides you. Does anyone else agree with you that "Brit Ish" = "Covenant Male"? Is the phrase used anywhere, by anyone, for anything?

Now you're trying to dictate how the word "similar" can be used. The words fore and four are similar in the sense that they are homonyms, just as British and בר'ת א'ש are pretty much homonyms.

Well... we were discussing the meaning of the words. Fore doesn't have the same meaning as four. It's a great example, because British doesn't have the same meaning or even a similar meaning as Covenant Male.

That mispronunciation is your problem.

Heehee... that comment is adorable.

There's a difference between being ignorant using using ignorance as a defence.

The question you posed was changing the subject anyway.

 

[dybmh]

Actually it is a secret prophesy about Roundheads, who were the supporters of the Parliament of England during the English Civil War (1641–1652).

It is likely that only British people will understand this mystery. I shall say no more.

You have confused me....

... in the best possible way.

 

[England my lionheart]

British Israelism...

I heard about this for the first time yesterday, someone mentioned it in a thread somewhere or other:

British Israelism - Wikipedia

I find it ridiculous for many reasons, I cannot believe people actually believed it

It sounds like a joke

Does anyone here believe the claims of British Israelism?

It's like "the protocols of the elders of Zion",it belongs in the trash can.

 

[dybmh]

OK. I'll go back through the thread and look for that link.

@Theo102 , I have gone thru the thread, and it looks like the bulk of your evidence is in posts 143 and 145. My opinion is... you have many somewhat tenuous connections, but none of them are explained very clearly.

But honestly, for me, I'm still trying to understand relevance. Why should someone, anyone care about whether or not the British people are somehow part of the story in the Bible? Is there some conspiracy? Has someone been harmed? Why the kerfuffle over this?

And then, if you have time, you mentioned a prophecy about Ephraim. What's that, and why is it important?

 

[Jedster]

You have confused me....

... in the best possible way.

Hmm...no offence, but I suspect you are an American.
Do I need to give you a clue?

 

[dybmh]

Hmm...no offence, but I suspect you are an American.

No offense

Do I need to give you a clue?

Need? I wouldn't say no.

 

[Jedster]

No offense
Need? I wouldn't say no.

Okey dokey

ETA That is very cavalier of you

 

[InChrist]

You left out the part about their purpose being to sacrifice at the temple.


Again you leave out the purpose, being to assemble to make offerings and enter into a covenant.


Again you leave out the purpose, this time of keeping the passover.

Here are the verses that describe the different deportations:

First deportation, circa 734 BCE:

And the Elah of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul king of Assyria, and the spirit of Tilgathpilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away, even the Reubenites, and the Gadites, and the half tribe of Manasseh, and brought them unto Halah, and Habor, and Hara, and to the river Gozan, unto this day.
1 Chronicles 5:26

Second deportation, circa 721 BC:

In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.
2 Kings 17:6

Third deportation circa 702 BCE

And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall yet again take root downward, and bear fruit upward.
2 Kings 19:30

Fourth deportation circa 676 BCE.

Wherefore YHWH brought upon them the captains of the host of the king of Assyria, which took Manasseh among the thorns, and bound him with fetters, and carried him to Babylon.
2 Chronicles 33:11

Israelite Deportations by Assyria

No, I didn’t leave out the purpose since I included the references to the passages of the scriptures which explained the reason many from the northern tribes migrated to Jerusalem and Judah.

 

[Ebionite]

No, I didn’t leave out the purpose since I included the references to the passages of the scriptures which explained the reason many from the northern tribes migrated to Jerusalem and Judah.

The verses don't say that it was a migration, which is why leaving out the religious purpose was significant.

There are four cases where tribes of Israel left their land, they had to go somewhere.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

British Israelism...

I heard about this for the first time yesterday, someone mentioned it in a thread somewhere or other:

British Israelism - Wikipedia

I find it ridiculous for many reasons, I cannot believe people actually believed it

It sounds like a joke

Does anyone here believe the claims of British Israelism?

It IS a joke. It is a racist belief, based on the so-called superiority of the British/white race. Haven't we had enough of this?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The verses don't say that it was a migration, which is why leaving out the religious purpose was significant.

There are four cases where tribes of Israel left their land, they had to go somewhere.

Actually it does say they were refugees fleeing Assyria -- well where do you think they had refugee status?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Maybe you ought to try actually refuting what I've said, bringing some evidence and showing that you know how a debate works.

LOL, good luck with that.....

 

[Augustus]

No it is just the usual romantic and fanciful claims of proud people trying to make themselves exclusive:-

And did those feet, in ancient time, walk upon England's mountains green? [No]
And was the holy Lamb of God on England's pleasant pastures seen? [No]
And did the countenance divine shine forth upon our clouded hills? [No]
And was Jerusalem builded here, among these dark, satanic mills? [What are you smoking?]

That seems a bit harsh

The poem was written by a non-conforming (radical) reformist and is an allegory about creating a better society for all, not about Jesus actually visiting Britain as part of a grandiose boast. It's a poetic device linking the myth to Revelation and the building of a [New] Jerusalem as a metaphor for a just society. The Romantic tradition had a tendency towards utilising classical and medieval imagery in the service of imagination, justice, idealism and transformation.

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In Englands green & pleasant Land.

All that stuff about King Arthur and the Holy Grail, the ridiculous idea that Joseph of Arimathea came to England, etc, is all is in similar vein.

If a community buys in to a 'foreign' mythic tradition, then this commonly get localised in some way though. We often like to have a more personal connection to that which is important to us.

 

[exchemist]

That seems a bit harsh

The poem was written by a non-conforming (radical) reformist and is an allegory about creating a better society for all, not about Jesus actually visiting Britain as part of a grandiose boast. It's a poetic device linking the myth to Revelation and the building of a [New] Jerusalem as a metaphor for a just society. The Romantic tradition had a tendency towards utilising classical and medieval imagery in the service of imagination, justice, idealism and transformation.

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In Englands green & pleasant Land.



If a community buys in to a 'foreign' mythic tradition, then this commonly get localised in some way though. We often like to have a more personal connection to that which is important to us.

Yes these are all fair points and I was being a bit harsh - probably the result of having to sing it as an annoying secular hymn so often, at school. Blake hated (with some justice) the effects of the industrial revolution, I gather.

 

[Ebionite]

Actually it does say they were refugees fleeing Assyria

Where, specifically?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Where, specifically?

There is more than one verse that supports people from the northern tribes living in Judah. My preference is for this one, because archaeology has found these remains:

2 Chronicles 31:6 (31:8 in Christian Bibles)
And the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of hallowed things which were hallowed unto the LORD their God, and laid them by heaps.

The following website documents the archaeological evidence of when these northern refugees were welcomed in Jerusalem after Assyria conquered Israel. (Remember that we Jews refer to all 12 tribes as Jews.)
Jerusalem welcomed Jewish refugees 2,700 years ago, new finds show

 

[Ebionite]

There is more than one verse that supports people from the northern tribes living in Judah.

So what? That doesn't support your claim about refugees fleeing Assyria.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So what? That doesn't support your claim about refugees fleeing Assyria.

You don't think that Israelite from the Northern Kingdom living in Judah after the Assyrian conquest shows that there are refugees?

At any rate, it is also documents archaeologically. See my other posts. Ive given links.

 

[Ebionite]

You don't think that Israelite from the Northern Kingdom living in Judah after the Assyrian conquest shows that there are refugees?

What I think isn't important. The point is that the text doesn't say that they were refugees like you said it did.