Bruce lee & zen

[Master Vigil]

Friend TOR,



That is what is called: UNDERSTANDING!

Just to add; each takes birth to reunite with the source.
What someone else did or not does not affect another's journey unless the understanding grows! Debating / criticizing shows lack of understanding. Rather prove your own understanding of life and that way life itself evolves or the dharma wheel moves on!

Love & rgds

I was never debating his impact on the martial arts world. My debate is on the quality of impact it was. The martial arts world is now filled with MMA, UFC, Olympic Taekwondo, etc... and martial artists who care more about being tough guys than becoming true martial artists. Who do you think helped start that? You can say that my debating shows a lack of understanding. I'm afraid that I care too much about the quality of martial arts in this world to change my stance on the subject.

 

[Master Vigil]

Whether or not his techniques were "lacking" I would think is a bit irrelevent. Whether or not his lacking techniques were a reflection of his self-mastery is up for debate, but that is irrelevent also, I think, if his techniques or stories can empower the reader/film watcher in their journey to self-mastery, which is indeed the driving point of the thread.

There's an old saying that a broken clock is right twice a day. But a broken clock is still a broken clock. I cannot say that a broken clock is perfect, nor would I want to rely on it.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Master Vigil,

I'm afraid that I care too much about the quality of martial arts in this world to change my stance on the subject.

Your understanding of the subject [martial arts] is surely more than me and so from your view point do not should be correct.
The point here was trying to get across is that Bruce Lee occupied a certain time / space and once someone else occupies a greater and similar space though time can never be matched then surely it will have an impact on everyone positively and break all myths about Bruce Lee [according to your statements]

Love & rgds

 

[Master Vigil]

Friend Master Vigil,



Your understanding of the subject [martial arts] is surely more than me and so from your view point do not should be correct.
The point here was trying to get across is that Bruce Lee occupied a certain time / space and once someone else occupies a greater and similar space though time can never be matched then surely it will have an impact on everyone positively and break all myths about Bruce Lee [according to your statements]

Love & rgds

I hope that happens.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I always get the same response from Bruce Lee fanatics. They all certainly do see him as some sort of god.

The proof is in his techniques. And they are lacking.

I am not a fanatic, I am close to the history of Bruce Lee, and as such know much about who he really was. No technique is perfect. He was a human being. You are giving his legend too much credit.

Bruce Lee's approach was light years ahead of everyone else, and was doing MMA before it was thought of. He was breaking out of the mold of one style and seeing the human being for what it is, simply a tool to express one's self.

His skill and elegance was beautiful, and just as MMA has evolved today, so would have Bruce had he lived long enough. You are simply a fool to say the things you are saying. Here are a few links for anyone to see his awful technique.

Clip 1 fast forward to 1 minute. It slows this side kick down. The form is as close to perfection as one can get. In fact, follow the path of the front foot and see just how straight the path is to the intended target, and then the return path. Also observe the balance, involved. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9Ru6ON8qzc

Clip 2 the first minute or two shows us another aspect to his form. In all his movements, his body remains balanced and poised. Something only developed by lots of practice. You try it, try to punch and kick while keeping your center of balance under control as he does, with the speed he does it. It takes HIGHLY trained muscle memory that is obtained only through repetition. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9p9m2vTiTc

I am not here to make Bruce a God, but for you to say his technique was bad, is just silly. For what Bruce knew and did, he was the best.

Here is a piece from an article from Black Belt Magazine interviewing Jhoon Rhee

BlackBelt: There are those who have labeled Lee a "celluloid fighter," claiming he couldn't fight for real. What is your opinion?
Jhoon RHEE: I too have heard people who think Bruce wasn't a real fighter, but he really was. When he was in high school in Hong Kong, he fought in a Golden Gloves boxing tournament and knocked out the reighning champion after only a few weeks of training. Bruc e was really a good streetfighter, and I personally have never seen anybody, pound for pound, as strong as Bruce Lee. Now, when he is no long with us, it's pretty natural that there are some people who try to discredit Bruce. This does not change the actu al facts. I know Bruce was a very good fighter.

From Chuck Norris

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So then I started to do my spinning heel kicks and hitting the pads and all this kind of thing then Bruce started doing it and off course in six months he could do it as well as anybody.[/FONT]

You are the only person I have ever heard say after witnessing Bruce in action his technique is sloppy.

 

[zenzero]

Friend itwillend,

Agree with your opinion.
Like to add that tough have nothing to do with his kung fu technique, neither is way of life etc except know that he was a *karma yogi* or a meditator.

Love & rgds

 

[Master Vigil]

I am not a fanatic, I am close to the history of Bruce Lee, and as such know much about who he really was. No technique is perfect. He was a human being. You are giving his legend too much credit.

haha. I'm not the one giving it too much credit. I'm the one saying there is no credit to it at all.

Bruce Lee's approach was light years ahead of everyone else, and was doing MMA before it was thought of. He was breaking out of the mold of one style and seeing the human being for what it is, simply a tool to express one's self.

No he wasn't. Asians have been mixing martial arts their entire history. There was nothing new in what Bruce Lee did.

His skill and elegance was beautiful, and just as MMA has evolved today, so would have Bruce had he lived long enough. You are simply a fool to say the things you are saying. Here are a few links for anyone to see his awful technique.

I know he would have loved MMA. Because MMA is a disgrace to the martial art world. MMA is hypocritical to the OP made by zenzero.

Clip 1

fast forward to 1 minute. It slows this side kick down. The form is as close to perfection as one can get. In fact, follow the path of the front foot and see just how straight the path is to the intended target, and then the return path. Also observe the balance, involved. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9Ru6ON8qzc

This clip simply shows his lack to proper chamber causing the foot to rise towards the target at an upward angle. Which upon impact would have considerably less power than a kick rising straight towards the target. It also shows his lack of hip extension which means the kick would have little power and reach. To try to fix this, Bruce needed to skip into his side kicks. This however, telegraphs exactly what he was going to do. Did it look good in movies though? Absolutely! Effective in real life? Not so much.

Clip 2

the first minute or two shows us another aspect to his form. In all his movements, his body remains balanced and poised. Something only developed by lots of practice. You try it, try to punch and kick while keeping your center of balance under control as he does, with the speed he does it. It takes HIGHLY trained muscle memory that is obtained only through repetition. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9p9m2vTiTc

Again, this clip does not impress me in the slightest. His wing chun is moderate, his balance is not amazing because what he's doing does not take incredible balance. My 8 year old son has that good of balance and he's only been doing martial arts for 2 years.

I am not here to make Bruce a God, but for you to say his technique was bad, is just silly. For what Bruce knew and did, he was the best.

And for you to say he was the best is silly. He simply wasn't. He was moderate, and definitely needed alot more training. No matter how many fans and fanatics seem to think otherwise.

Here is a piece from an article from Black Belt Magazine interviewing Jhoon Rhee

Yeah, good street fighter. That does NOT make him a martial artist.

From Chuck NorrisYou are the only person I have ever heard say after witnessing Bruce in action his technique is sloppy.

Chuck Norris never should have left Korea, his technique is just as bad. And it's funny that he mentions his back wheel kicks. Because those are Chuck's worst technique that I've seen. His hip overrates every time and his balance is poorly positioned. His hands flail all over the place because he can't use his hips properly to generate torque. Again, a moderate martial artist.

 

[Master Vigil]

I urge anyone who wants to watch fantastic Martial arts skill, especially Chinese kung fu. To watch the Shaolin Monks, or the monks on Mt. Wudang. I would also suggest watching the kids, they are phenomenal. For a great wushu martial arts movie star, watch Jet Li. His technique is superb! And he is faster and more precise than Bruce Lee. He is also an amazing person with amazing philosophy. His ONE Foundation is really doing great work!

As for Japanese arts, I would suggest watching Morihei Ueshiba (for zen martial arts) with his Aikido as well as Morihiro Saito. For karatedo I would suggest maybe watching Master Kanazawa, or Mas Oyama if you like Kyokushin. But I urgely suggest to watch any and all Koryu Kenjutsu (old style sword arts). Koryu stands for all styles that were created before the Meiji Restoration of Japan.

If you want to study the most difficultly ranked system in Japan. Study Kendo. The Hachi Dan test is the hardest test in any martial art to pass. With sometimes up to 600 people testing, an average of 6 will pass.

For korean martial arts. I would look to "pre 1990" tang soo do/soo bahk do. I would not look at tae kwon do because it is more sport than art now and is no longer effective. You could also look at Taekkyeon, the old kicking "dance" of korea. The techniques are what spawned the revolutionary kicking of korea.

There are SO many AMAZING martial artists out there.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I urge anyone who wants to watch fantastic Martial arts skill, especially Chinese kung fu. To watch the Shaolin Monks, or the monks on Mt. Wudang. I would also suggest watching the kids, they are phenomenal. For a great wushu martial arts movie star, watch Jet Li. His technique is superb! And he is faster and more precise than Bruce Lee. He is also an amazing person with amazing philosophy. His ONE Foundation is really doing great work!

As for Japanese arts, I would suggest watching Morihei Ueshiba (for zen martial arts) with his Aikido as well as Morihiro Saito. For karatedo I would suggest maybe watching Master Kanazawa, or Mas Oyama if you like Kyokushin. But I urgely suggest to watch any and all Koryu Kenjutsu (old style sword arts). Koryu stands for all styles that were created before the Meiji Restoration of Japan.

If you want to study the most difficultly ranked system in Japan. Study Kendo. The Hachi Dan test is the hardest test in any martial art to pass. With sometimes up to 600 people testing, an average of 6 will pass.

For korean martial arts. I would look to "pre 1990" tang soo do/soo bahk do. I would not look at tae kwon do because it is more sport than art now and is no longer effective. You could also look at Taekkyeon, the old kicking "dance" of korea. The techniques are what spawned the revolutionary kicking of korea.

There are SO many AMAZING martial artists out there.

what do you think of Monkey Magic?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I urge anyone who wants to watch fantastic Martial arts skill, especially Chinese kung fu. To watch the Shaolin Monks, or the monks on Mt. Wudang. I would also suggest watching the kids, they are phenomenal. For a great wushu martial arts movie star, watch Jet Li. His technique is superb! And he is faster and more precise than Bruce Lee. He is also an amazing person with amazing philosophy. His ONE Foundation is really doing great work!

As for Japanese arts, I would suggest watching Morihei Ueshiba (for zen martial arts) with his Aikido as well as Morihiro Saito. For karatedo I would suggest maybe watching Master Kanazawa, or Mas Oyama if you like Kyokushin. But I urgely suggest to watch any and all Koryu Kenjutsu (old style sword arts). Koryu stands for all styles that were created before the Meiji Restoration of Japan.

If you want to study the most difficultly ranked system in Japan. Study Kendo. The Hachi Dan test is the hardest test in any martial art to pass. With sometimes up to 600 people testing, an average of 6 will pass.

For korean martial arts. I would look to "pre 1990" tang soo do/soo bahk do. I would not look at tae kwon do because it is more sport than art now and is no longer effective. You could also look at Taekkyeon, the old kicking "dance" of korea. The techniques are what spawned the revolutionary kicking of korea.

There are SO many AMAZING martial artists out there.

*nods along hearing a few of these techniques and names....*

WAIT!! Jet Li!! Go back to him and talk about him bunches and bunches....

Sorry, I got a major crush on him. :drool:

 

[Master Vigil]

what do you think of Monkey Magic?

FANTASTIC!!! Is this movie based off of the Sun Wukong story?

 

[Master Vigil]

*nods along hearing a few of these techniques and names....*

WAIT!! Jet Li!! Go back to him and talk about him bunches and bunches....

Sorry, I got a major crush on him. :drool:

Jet Li or "Li Lianjie" 李連杰 truly is an amazing martial artist. And a movie star to boot, those two don't normally go together.

He was amazing even as a youngster beating many much older than he. He was asked to perform in front of Nixon. And according to Li, Nixon asked him to be his bodyguard. HAHA!

 

[Just_me_Mike]

haha. I'm not the one giving it too much credit. I'm the one saying there is no credit to it at all.

No he wasn't. Asians have been mixing martial arts their entire history. There was nothing new in what Bruce Lee did.

I know he would have loved MMA. Because MMA is a disgrace to the martial art world. MMA is hypocritical to the OP made by zenzero.

This clip simply shows his lack to proper chamber causing the foot to rise towards the target at an upward angle. Which upon impact would have considerably less power than a kick rising straight towards the target. It also shows his lack of hip extension which means the kick would have little power and reach. To try to fix this, Bruce needed to skip into his side kicks. This however, telegraphs exactly what he was going to do. Did it look good in movies though? Absolutely! Effective in real life? Not so much.

Again, this clip does not impress me in the slightest. His wing chun is moderate, his balance is not amazing because what he's doing does not take incredible balance. My 8 year old son has that good of balance and he's only been doing martial arts for 2 years.

And for you to say he was the best is silly. He simply wasn't. He was moderate, and definitely needed alot more training. No matter how many fans and fanatics seem to think otherwise.

Yeah, good street fighter. That does NOT make him a martial artist.


Chuck Norris never should have left Korea, his technique is just as bad. And it's funny that he mentions his back wheel kicks. Because those are Chuck's worst technique that I've seen. His hip overrates every time and his balance is poorly positioned. His hands flail all over the place because he can't use his hips properly to generate torque. Again, a moderate martial artist.

Oh I see now, you are a martial artist in the traditional sense. Like many of those traditionalist that got mopped in the ring when trying to fight in MMA.

It is all to clear now, you cling to your forms and BS to escape from the reality of human achievement from which Bruce gave many contributions too.

No need to continue with you. I would encourage you to make a video of yourself, or ANYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD you think has "good technique" and let unbiased people view your video and ANYTHING Bruce did, and let the truth be told. Until you can do that, stop wasting my time.

Thanks for the laugh!

 

[Master Vigil]

Oh I see now, you are a martial artist in the traditional sense. Like many of those traditionalist that got mopped in the ring when trying to fight in MMA.

It is all to clear now, you cling to your forms and BS to escape from the reality of human achievement from which Bruce gave many contributions too.

No need to continue with you. I would encourage you to make a video of yourself, or ANYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD you think has "good technique" and let unbiased people view your video and ANYTHING Bruce did, and let the truth be told. Until you can do that, stop wasting my time.

Thanks for the laugh!

Again, the same BS I get from Bruce Lee Fanatics and MMA fanatics. It's really funny how you say traditionalists got mopped. When the Gracie's were all traditionalists. You are just showing how little you know about martial arts in general. And also how little your opinions don't belong in a zen buddhist directory and how little they have to do with the original post. You praised Bruce Lee's story about the master and his chopsticks. But you become a hypocrite when you say the master and his chopsticks is bad.

I don't have anything to "prove" to you. You already sound like you think you know everything. What's the old zen saying? You can't fill a cup that is already full? What I would suggest however, is actually do some research on martial arts history, and perhaps go and actually study some. Perhaps then you will understand.

And I already gave you people to watch. I don't have to make videos of them, there are tons on Youtube. Go check 'em out!

 

[Mr Cheese]

FANTASTIC!!! Is this movie based off of the Sun Wukong story?

nah, long running (64??? episodes) 70's tv show....
brits know it...we grewd up with it...

I beleive will smith is participating in a new hollywood movie version...

the last was that jet li and jackie chan one....hidden kingdom???

this tv series is considered by most to be the definative screen version though

Monkey! - The Complete Series [DVD]: Amazon.co.uk: Monkey: DVD

Its on you tube too...

Monkey was a TV program first made in the late '70s, based around a story written by Wu Ch' Eng-En. The story follows Monkey, as he escorts the character "Tripitaka" on a mission to retrieve Buddhist scriptures from a monastery in India. Traveling with them are the pig monster "Pigsy" and the water monster "Sandy". The character "Tripitaka" was based on a person called Hsüan Tsang who actually ventured to India in 629A.D to retrieve Buddhist scriptures.

Born from an egg on a mountain top,
The punky-est monkey that ever was,
He knew every magic trick under the sun,
To tease the Gods and every one and have some fun,
Monkey Magic Monkey Magic,
Monkey Magic Monkey Magic,
Monkey Magic Monkey Magic,
Monkey Magic,
Monkey Magic Oo-ooooh!

The Nature of Monkey was Irrepressible!

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Again, the same BS I get from Bruce Lee Fanatics and MMA fanatics. It's really funny how you say traditionalists got mopped. When the Gracie's were all traditionalists. You are just showing how little you know about martial arts in general. And also how little your opinions don't belong in a zen buddhist directory and how little they have to do with the original post. You praised Bruce Lee's story about the master and his chopsticks. But you become a hypocrite when you say the master and his chopsticks is bad.

I don't have anything to "prove" to you. You already sound like you think you know everything. What's the old zen saying? You can't fill a cup that is already full? What I would suggest however, is actually do some research on martial arts history, and perhaps go and actually study some. Perhaps then you will understand.

And I already gave you people to watch. I don't have to make videos of them, there are tons on Youtube. Go check 'em out!

No I am the real deal. I actually train and fight, well use to. But I have fought, and still train.

Studied for years, so I am not just on the sidelines. Like I said, post some technique of yourself, and prove me wrong. Until then, keep posting your jokes, so I can get a chuckle!

Now about the Gracies, they eventually got their butt's handed to them and got beat, because evolution in the MMA world figured out how to beat them. Tradition is dead, unless you just like collecting belts and so forth. In the real world, the human is always more important than any style you bring up. The Gracie's made their millions, and now are thought of as those that brought evolution to the martial arts world. They deserve that respect, but even the Gracie's are evolving from their traditional Jui-Jitsu. Wake up man...

 

[Master Vigil]

No I am the real deal. I actually train and fight, well use to. But I have fought, and still train.

Studied for years, so I am not just on the sidelines. Like I said, post some technique of yourself, and prove me wrong. Until then, keep posting your jokes, so I can get a chuckle!

Now about the Gracies, they eventually got their butt's handed to them and got beat, because evolution in the MMA world figured out how to beat them. Tradition is dead, unless you just like collecting belts and so forth. In the real world, the human is always more important than any style you bring up. The Gracie's made their millions, and now are thought of as those that brought evolution to the martial arts world. They deserve that respect, but even the Gracie's are evolving from their traditional Jui-Jitsu. Wake up man...

What did you train? And for how long?

I don't need to post anything of myself. I'm not full of myself. Do you have anything posted of yourself?

The gracies got beat because the rules were changing... and it became more of a sport. The evolution of MMA and UFC has gone incredibly down hill. Look at the current state of it with Kimbo Slice. His last fight was horrendous. His opponent just hopped around the ring. I bet that fight was staged so that Kimbo would win. Why? Because the UFC has made more money off of him than anyone else in a long time. Money. Money, Greed, Violence, Ego, etc... this is the world of MMA. This is NOT martial arts.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

What did you train? And for how long?

I don't need to post anything of myself. I'm not full of myself. Do you have anything posted of yourself?

The gracies got beat because the rules were changing... and it became more of a sport. The evolution of MMA and UFC has gone incredibly down hill. Look at the current state of it with Kimbo Slice. His last fight was horrendous. His opponent just hopped around the ring. I bet that fight was staged so that Kimbo would win. Why? Because the UFC has made more money off of him than anyone else in a long time. Money. Money, Greed, Violence, Ego, etc... this is the world of MMA. This is NOT martial arts.

I am 33 I think now. I have been studying since I was around 13 or 14.

I started in Kung-Fu, then Combat-Akido. I boxed for a while in DC, studied Jiu-Jitsu under Alliance. I have studied Kempo, Kali, wrestling, Thai boxing and spent time with other disciplines less rigorously.

My son, who is now 10 has already been in Jiu-Jitsu and Thai Boxing for 2 years. It has been part of my life for a long time. From the sounds of it you too.

 

[Mr Cheese]

all the arguments over bruce lee being good or not, I have no knowledge...
misses one thing...

the given quotation by Zen Zero....is truly inspiring and wonderful

I do like the way that the exact same thing is said throughout christianity, zen and more besides...if one looks deepe enough... the essential message portrayed Bruce Lee is one of the Tao te Chin's "Inaction", doing without doing....

I just bought a new kabbalah book (only cost me $4...woot!) in the introduction, the exact same message is stated, but through Jewish eyes..... I will post it when I get a chance...

below is a similar sentiment, but not the one I just spoke of....


“One of the more important secrets of mystical teaching is hidden in our desire to connect with the Divine. While the intrinsic nature of yearning is to acquire something, get somewhere, or accomplish a goal, we ultimately discover that there is nothing to get and nowhere to go. The yearning itself holds a secret; its own existence is an answer rather than a question. Our delusion is the belief that this yearning is mine or yours; the teaching, however, is that it is an important way we exerience the presence of God. In effect, it would be more accurate to say that this is God-ing yearhing through each soul for the truth of creation-ing to be realized. In the modern idiom we would say that the medium is the message. Our sanity, our connection with true reality, is in the yearning itself.”

- David A Cooper​

 

[Master Vigil]

I am 33 I think now. I have been studying since I was around 13 or 14.

I started in Kung-Fu, then Combat-Akido. I boxed for a while in DC, studied Jiu-Jitsu under Alliance. I have studied Kempo, Kali, wrestling, Thai boxing and spent time with other disciplines less rigorously.

My son, who is now 10 has already been in Jiu-Jitsu and Thai Boxing for 2 years. It has been part of my life for a long time. From the sounds of it you too.

I've been studying for 15 years. Tang Soo Do, Ninjutus/Aikijujutsu, Katori Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu, Kendo, Kickboxing, Longhu Chi Gong, and a year or so of Kung Fu, Wushu, Wing Chun, and Tai Chi Chuan. I have a 2nd Dan in Tang Soo Do, and 5th dan in Kenjutsu and Ninjutsu. I also wrestled in High School.

My wife and son (who is 8) are now red belts in Tang Soo Do, and will be starting sword with me soon. He keeps bothering me about it, so I suppose he will be old enough.

Absolutely a big part of both our lives. What it seems, is we just have different opinions on what makes martial arts, well... martial arts. I am incredibly technique oriented. I am an incredibly picky shihan, and my students complain alot about it. That is probably my only concern with Bruce Lee. And it's probably not that big of a deal that he wasn't technically correct. But it is to me, simply because I obsess over it. I obsess over proper pronunciation of terminology too, which in the end is not that important.