Bruce lee & zen

[Just_me_Mike]

I've been studying for 15 years. Tang Soo Do, Ninjutus/Aikijujutsu, Katori Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu, Kendo, Kickboxing, Longhu Chi Gong, and a year or so of Kung Fu, Wushu, Wing Chun, and Tai Chi Chuan. I have a 2nd Dan in Tang Soo Do, and 5th dan in Kenjutsu and Ninjutsu. I also wrestled in High School.

My wife and son (who is 8) are now red belts in Tang Soo Do, and will be starting sword with me soon. He keeps bothering me about it, so I suppose he will be old enough.

Absolutely a big part of both our lives. What it seems, is we just have different opinions on what makes martial arts, well... martial arts. I am incredibly technique oriented. I am an incredibly picky shihan, and my students complain alot about it. That is probably my only concern with Bruce Lee. And it's probably not that big of a deal that he wasn't technically correct. But it is to me, simply because I obsess over it. I obsess over proper pronunciation of terminology too, which in the end is not that important.

Ah I recal a famous knockout from the UFC. A black gentleman representing Tang Soo Do really did well, but it has been some time now.

As too you being picky about technique, and comparing it to Bruce's technique, I think we have room for discussion.

If you adhere to a system of belief, style, or fixed movements, you must agree there is a correct technique. Though it may look different from person to person because of build and so forth, the essence of the technique would be the same.

So, as we all know Bruce did not get a Black Belt in anything, but there is a reason to that, and that is where we must discuss. Bruce soon learned that the mechanical efforts of following katas and routines only served simple pleasure and not real combat.

So naturally Bruce abandoned that goel of learning all those routines and techniques, and started studying kinesiology, anatomy, and physics. He concluded that humans only have two arms and two feet, and as such the physics behind what they can do will be pretty limited.

So from a scientific standpoint, he learned properly how our body worked and then applied it to combat. To me this is beyond martial arts, and is what martial arts claims to be in some cases.

We know today the norther style of Kung Fu was best served for the fighting style of the day. They road horses in that day, so the foot men learned long spinning kicks to knock people off. The Southern Style focused on moves that worked for the high seas on boats, so there was a lot of low stances for balance, etc...

However, isolated, they never teach the whole truth, and that is what Bruce liberated from. So, if you show me or explain a technique from your arsenal, I can analyze it, and see if the laws of physics can improve the move or not. That is what Bruce was after. Another good example, is the stance he chose. He theorized that the right hand (if that was your strong hand) should be up front most of the time. It is the strongest and will see the most action, thus put it to good use. While the weaker hand is back, so it can travel farther during a strike to gain more speed and power. Thus maximizing both hands in combat.

That is the stuff that eventually excited me, I wanted reality, not dance. However, don't get me wrong, it is still cool to watch a Shaolin Monk do what they do. Still very talented.

 

[Master Vigil]

Ah I recal a famous knockout from the UFC. A black gentleman representing Tang Soo Do really did well, but it has been some time now.

As too you being picky about technique, and comparing it to Bruce's technique, I think we have room for discussion.

If you adhere to a system of belief, style, or fixed movements, you must agree there is a correct technique. Though it may look different from person to person because of build and so forth, the essence of the technique would be the same.

So, as we all know Bruce did not get a Black Belt in anything, but there is a reason to that, and that is where we must discuss. Bruce soon learned that the mechanical efforts of following katas and routines only served simple pleasure and not real combat.

So naturally Bruce abandoned that goel of learning all those routines and techniques, and started studying kinesiology, anatomy, and physics. He concluded that humans only have two arms and two feet, and as such the physics behind what they can do will be pretty limited.

So from a scientific standpoint, he learned properly how our body worked and then applied it to combat. To me this is beyond martial arts, and is what martial arts claims to be in some cases.

We know today the norther style of Kung Fu was best served for the fighting style of the day. They road horses in that day, so the foot men learned long spinning kicks to knock people off. The Southern Style focused on moves that worked for the high seas on boats, so there was a lot of low stances for balance, etc...

However, isolated, they never teach the whole truth, and that is what Bruce liberated from. So, if you show me or explain a technique from your arsenal, I can analyze it, and see if the laws of physics can improve the move or not. That is what Bruce was after. Another good example, is the stance he chose. He theorized that the right hand (if that was your strong hand) should be up front most of the time. It is the strongest and will see the most action, thus put it to good use. While the weaker hand is back, so it can travel farther during a strike to gain more speed and power. Thus maximizing both hands in combat.

That is the stuff that eventually excited me, I wanted reality, not dance. However, don't get me wrong, it is still cool to watch a Shaolin Monk do what they do. Still very talented.

This again is where we differ. Kata, Hyung, whatever... is nothing but a series of single techniques. So it is the single technique that I obsess over. My student's do not learn a form unless they can do the single techniques within the form. Form is nothing but a way to practice memorization, balance, focus, timing, breath control, distance control, etc... I obsess over technique.

We can take Bruce Lee's sidekick in the video you posted. My comment on it earlier showed my obsession. His knee was not properly chambered to allow his foot to travel in a straight line, and thus was not impacting the target perpendicularly. This reduces the amount of impact, and also reduces his ability to penetrate the target, because the blow will likely glance off. Especially if the opponent simply turns his body as he's getting hit. His hip as well, is not turned enough to generate enough reach if his opponent decides to move backwards. Nor would it generate enough reach and penetration to do any real damage. Again, that is why he focused on his skipping sidekicks, which generated alot of power. But needed alot of room and time to execute.

You are absolutely correct that the human body is quite simple. That is why I always tell my students that I don't care what art you practice, your stance, hip and shoulder position, timing, chamber/execution, etc... will always be the same. Minus subtle changes of course, (i.e. wrist position in chinese arts vs japanese/korean arts.)

 

[Just_me_Mike]

This again is where we differ. Kata, Hyung, whatever... is nothing but a series of single techniques. So it is the single technique that I obsess over. My student's do not learn a form unless they can do the single techniques within the form. Form is nothing but a way to practice memorization, balance, focus, timing, breath control, distance control, etc... I obsess over technique.

We can take Bruce Lee's sidekick in the video you posted. My comment on it earlier showed my obsession. His knee was not properly chambered to allow his foot to travel in a straight line, and thus was not impacting the target perpendicularly. This reduces the amount of impact, and also reduces his ability to penetrate the target, because the blow will likely glance off. Especially if the opponent simply turns his body as he's getting hit. His hip as well, is not turned enough to generate enough reach if his opponent decides to move backwards. Nor would it generate enough reach and penetration to do any real damage. Again, that is why he focused on his skipping sidekicks, which generated alot of power. But needed alot of room and time to execute.

You are absolutely correct that the human body is quite simple. That is why I always tell my students that I don't care what art you practice, your stance, hip and shoulder position, timing, chamber/execution, etc... will always be the same. Minus subtle changes of course, (i.e. wrist position in chinese arts vs japanese/korean arts.)

I think Bruce left chambering kicks for good reason. Unless I am misunderstanding you.

Bruce's goal with the side kick was simply to connect dot A and dot B, in the simplest, straightest, quickest method, while not compromising structural balance within the body.

Have you tried this technique before? Let me know what you mean by chambering before we continue, so I am not assuming your intentions.

 

[Master Vigil]

I think Bruce left chambering kicks for good reason. Unless I am misunderstanding you.

Bruce's goal with the side kick was simply to connect dot A and dot B, in the simplest, straightest, quickest method, while not compromising structural balance within the body.

Have you tried this technique before? Let me know what you mean by chambering before we continue, so I am not assuming your intentions.

By chambering I mean, putting the foot in the proper position before executing the kick. His sidekick brought his foot to the target at a 45 degree angle, when physics suggests that an impact at a 90 degree angle is much more devastating. It's like, you could either sideswipe a guard rail with your car, or you could hit it head on. The head on collision is going to be much more devastating. And it takes no time or effort (with proper training) to chamber correctly.

Does that make sense?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

By chambering I mean, putting the foot in the proper position before executing the kick. His sidekick brought his foot to the target at a 45 degree angle, when physics suggests that an impact at a 90 degree angle is much more devastating. It's like, you could either sideswipe a guard rail with your car, or you could hit it head on. The head on collision is going to be much more devastating. And it takes no time or effort (with proper training) to chamber correctly.

Does that make sense?

OK, I understand now. Bruce purposefully did this, and I can testify after spending many years chambering my kicks, it is absolutely less effective than what Bruce is doing.

I am glad our bickering between you and I are over, so let me ask you this. Have you tried to do his kick? Because let me explain something about physics to you. It is true the 90 degree would be optimal, but the only time it needs to be at 90 is at impact.

So, what Bruce is doing is taking the foot from rest, to the target without deviation. This requires a high degere of timing and skill because as you said at the moment of impact, let's say 90 degrees, it will be critical for the body to be in structural balance.

If both kicks are compared side by side, Bruce's gets there first every time. I have done tests with MANY instructors of different karate forms, and they have all agreed this is true. However, they have to still teach the chamber kick because of their allegiance to their discipline.

So, I ask you, are you beyond learning something new? Have you really given this technique a chance? Because I certainly have done it both ways for years.

Look forward to your response.

 

[Master Vigil]

I have done Bruce's kick, and found the opposite. I find a properly (this is key here, because an improperly chambered kick is incredibly slow, and is definitely inferior to Bruce's kick) chambered kick to be much faster, precise, and And I disagree that it only needs to be 90 degrees at impact. If I drive my car 45 degrees to the curb, and at the last minute turn real fast to be 90 degrees, my speed decreases and my impact is lessened. The same would go for a kick.

When I was younger, and first started studying Bruce Lee's method I loved his sidekick. It was quicker, I could get in and out of the impact faster, and it worked. But then I started competing at black belt level and I was getting creamed by incredible technique. The first time I broke my nose was while I was performing one of his techniques. It glanced as my opponent turned to back kick my nose. With a properly chambered kick that he didn't put alot of power on. And it almost knocked me out. Imagine if he had put more speed and hip extension on it? I'd be dead.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I have done Bruce's kick, and found the opposite. I find a properly (this is key here, because an improperly chambered kick is incredibly slow, and is definitely inferior to Bruce's kick) chambered kick to be much faster, precise, and And I disagree that it only needs to be 90 degrees at impact. If I drive my car 45 degrees to the curb, and at the last minute turn real fast to be 90 degrees, my speed decreases and my impact is lessened. The same would go for a kick.

When I was younger, and first started studying Bruce Lee's method I loved his sidekick. It was quicker, I could get in and out of the impact faster, and it worked. But then I started competing at black belt level and I was getting creamed by incredible technique. The first time I broke my nose was while I was performing one of his techniques. It glanced as my opponent turned to back kick my nose. With a properly chambered kick that he didn't put alot of power on. And it almost knocked me out. Imagine if he had put more speed and hip extension on it? I'd be dead.

If you are ever in the South East US, I would love to meet with you.

This is something that cannot be resolved online, so we must agree to disagree, because we can go back and forth giving reasons why, but I don't think we will ever get anywhere. If I am ever heading up there the PA, I will let you know.

I am that convinced of what I am talking about and I assume you are too. It will make it that more special when we meet to compare styles, because one of us will be awakened. Until then, or until another discussion.

Maybe these will be of interest to you.
Here is a couple properly done side kick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1kcxQ1J6wI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTGtTy0mxlM

Here is a tradition chambered side kick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jKJ8nHHBG8

It really is two different worlds. How about this, could you please record you doing a side kick, with one of your students hold a shield and get the same results as Scott above. I have NEVER EVER seen anyone do a traditional side kick and get those results, you will have amazed me and many others I am sure.

 

[Master Vigil]

Those definitely are two different worlds because you've got a young guy doing a skipping sidekick with a lot of room, good speed and extension. And an old guy with horrible... everything. If I can find a good video I will post it for you. Perhaps tomorrow I will see if anyone wants to videotape me so I can give a more precise explanation.

Agreed that it won't be resolved over the internet. One thing I must say about the first guy you posted. His chamber was much better than Bruce's. And so was his extension. It was closer to a traditional side kick than Bruce's. Can he get that same effect without skipping though?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Those definitely are two different worlds because you've got a young guy doing a skipping sidekick with a lot of room, good speed and extension. And an old guy with horrible... everything. If I can find a good video I will post it for you. Perhaps tomorrow I will see if anyone wants to videotape me so I can give a more precise explanation.

Fair enough, but I had a hard time finding a traditional kick on the net.

Agreed that it won't be resolved over the internet. One thing I must say about the first guy you posted. His chamber was much better than Bruce's. And so was his extension. It was closer to a traditional side kick than Bruce's. Can he get that same effect without skipping though?

Bruce did not impact anything, so the kick would be a bit different than Scott's kick.

This link shows Bruce's kick with impact, it is the same as Scott's, even though it is in a movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibnO...221DCAB7&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=18

Finally yes, this kick is equally devastating from standing still. I will see if I can find video of that, or maybe I will make one myself.

 

[Master Vigil]

Bruce's hip wasn't turned as much as the first guy you posted. And he jumped much futher. Scotts kick was definitely more traditional and better than Bruce's.

I couldn't find any good videos of a traditional kick either. So I'm going to hopefully make one tomorrow.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Would you consider this traditional?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0BhhmNyFr4

 

[Master Vigil]

No, that kick looks more like a poor round kick.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Surely it can't be that hard to find online and post. Balls in your court

 

[Master Vigil]

I really couldn't find anything good. Depending on the weather (it's snowing pretty bad up here) I might be able to get some footage tomorrow to show you.

 

[Master Vigil]

Hmmm... this is probably close to what I'm talking about. He skips, but doesn't have too much room. His chamber is almost perpendicular. Although his hip extension is minimal, if he added it. I doubt his opponent would get up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_ekaP_EO1I&feature=related

This is another good execution. A little slower, but got the job done. The guy getting knocked out is actually Billy Blanks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysu6LJIqlPc

This guy is taekwondo, but he chambers well. And shows his speed, accuracy, precision, and balance well in this demo. Not the best, but an idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YphTQw58FrQ&feature=channel

 

[Master Vigil]

This is Shotokan Kumite
There is a great sidekick on there at 2:01
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=292RJFjGCKA&feature=PlayList&p=941CBCD68ECA35E8&index=30

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Hmmm... this is probably close to what I'm talking about. He skips, but doesn't have too much room. His chamber is almost perpendicular. Although his hip extension is minimal, if he added it. I doubt his opponent would get up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_ekaP_EO1I&feature=related

This is another good execution. A little slower, but got the job done. The guy getting knocked out is actually Billy Blanks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysu6LJIqlPc

This guy is taekwondo, but he chambers well. And shows his speed, accuracy, precision, and balance well in this demo. Not the best, but an idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YphTQw58FrQ&feature=channel

The first one was OK, but I can't say much for the other two. I think one of the things that will be difficult to discuss over the net is energy flow during the kick. I will try to explain.

If I am in my fighting stance, and lift my lead leg about 2 inches in the air, what will my body want to do? We should both agree it will want to move forward.

Now add to that, I lift my lead foot again, but this time thrust a bit with my back foot still on the ground, what will happen? We should both agree a quick shift of body weight forward, as well as a lot of energy moving forward.

So, what stops this energy moving forward? How do we take advantage of this energy? In theory we would want the opponent to stop this energy as our fist or foot engages their body. That is called transferring all energy (like Newton's law) until it stops from another object.

Now would there be any advantage to us stopping our own energy, or weakening our energy as we project forward? This is the basis for a proper side kick or ANY attacking movement, to channel as much energy as we can to a focal point.

If I look at a side kick now, and the front foot goes in any direction other than a straight line towards the target, it WILL lose some energy. Why? If I am moving my whole body forward in motion, and then independently move my leg another direction, that leg will NEVER be able to capture the larger more powerful energy back from the main body, and mostly impacts individually, which will still do some damage, because the leg it strong, but it is different than being part of the total body energy in a proper side kick, or any strike for that matter.

Again, it is extremely difficult to discuss on the net, but I decided to give it a try.

This is Shotokan Kumite
There is a great sidekick on there at 2:01
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=292RJFjGCKA&feature=PlayList&p=941CBCD68ECA35E8&index=30

This was a reverse kick not a side kick, but still cool none the less.

 

[Master Vigil]

Very difficult to discuss. I agree with you completely. The only thing I think we are disagreeing is where that energy, moving forward in a straight line, should come from. When I chamber my knee, my hips are already beginning to move towards my target. The explosion then comes from my chambered position, not from the floor. This would allow the kick to travel head on at a 90 degree angle, not from the floor at a 45 degree angle. But I do not cease moving my energy forward as I chamber. If that makes sense.

I looked at it again, and you are correct it was a back kick. I must have been tired and as he went behind the judge, I saw him turn into the kick. Either way, yes. A good kick.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Just wanted to communicate that:
The whole of humanity has had very few enlightened people though every being is capable of, each has the potential; simply because each form and no-form is nothing but the same energy to start and end with.
We [humans] falter only because our minds create barriers and only an intelligent person understands this and transcends this mind as he sees clearly the tricks of the mind.
Similarly TECHNIQUES about a fight or meditation are simply barriers created by the mind, as even a non-technique is a Technique is to be remembered.
If some say that Bruce Lee did not have one then would say that his non-technique was his technique and that is what enlightenment is all about.
Let us atleast give the man his due; he popularized martial arts across the globe in a manner only he could.

Love & rgds

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Master Vigil, thought you would like this. It is a great page in a book about Bruce and his side kick. What I would ask that you pay attention to is the determiniation to perfect a techinique.

I would then ask that you conisder what he accomplished and then ask yourself, could your side kick come close to accomplishing the same thing.

You will see he eventually is dropping boards in mid air by himself and breaking them with a side kick. Anyway great story, and the things he acheived with his sidekick, would never come about by parlor tricks, but only propoer timing, speed, and power.

Thanks

Bruce Lee: the incomparable fighter - Google Books