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Buddhist Have a Soul

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Actually that is wrong, Buddha spoke about the universal mind, which is another name for Brahman, without any God contexts....
And the Heart is another name for the soul, to remove the additional contexts of Atman, which implies a self attached to us.

Here we go with the quote-mining..... <sigh>

What you are saying is wrong on so many levels, I almost don't know where to begin.

But briefly:

Alaya-vijnana is store-consciousness in some schools, it is an individual aspect of consciousness and absolutely nothing to do with Brahman. Nothing whatsoever. "Universal Mind" is a very misleading translation for it, but of course you wouldn't care about such subtleties.

In The Heart Sutra, "Heart" means "essence", ie the essence of wisdom, the heart of the teaching. It is nothing to do with soul.

To repeat, Buddhism does not teach Atman and Brahman, those are Hindu beliefs. Believe what you like, but please stop twisting Buddhist teachings to fit your own agenda, which is trying to prop up your strange DIY religion.

You seem to think you are some kind of prophet, well good luck with that but it doesn't cut any ice with me. I suspect you have delusions of grandeur and that you are on some kind of self-indulgent ego-trip to preach your strange DIY religion.
 
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Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
That doesn't make sense. I don't think the term 'rebirth' would have become part of Buddhism if it just meant what is as obvious as you state. My opinion is that this is a DIY version of Buddhism for the atheist-materialists.

You are being wilfully ignorant, and you are clearly not interested in a proper understanding of Buddhist teachings at all. What I said makes perfect sense and is consistent with what is described in the Buddhist suttas. Go away and study them for a couple of years if you want to have a grown-up conversation about it, otherwise stop wasting my time.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Of course, always read everything....Guess can't say the same for you....

Ima cut it here. I do not like sarcasm. I do read everything. I hate assumptions.

I just know you are interpreting Buddhism through your belief system. I know this from the words you use and previous conversations on what you believe. If that isn't true, pretend that you don't have a soul, there is no god, and oneness doesn't exist? If it's a challenge or you can't, it's alright. Just make others aware that this is your opinion not something you are staying as fact given, in Buddhism, so I know you are not a Buddhist and have yet to give me suttras to support your point.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I just know you are interpreting Buddhism through your belief system. I know this from the words you use and previous conversations on what you believe. If that isn't true, pretend that you don't have a soul, there is no god, and oneness doesn't exist? If it's a challenge or you can't, it's alright. Just make others aware that this is your opinion not something you are staying as fact given, in Buddhism, so I know you are not a Buddhist and have yet to give me suttras to support your point.

I think it is beliefs like soul, god and oneness which need to be challenged. There is nothing to support them.

People believe in this nonsense and then have the cheek to tell us Buddhists we should believe it too!

It's absolutely ridiculous! Not only incredibly patronising, but also very rude.
 
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ratikala

Istha gosthi
Namaskaram Mr O'Shez

Technically it is punabhava, "re-becoming", and is an example of dependent arising. As an analogy, the "you" of tomorrow will not be the same as "you" of today, but the "you" of tomorrow will arise in dependence on the "you" of today. Also the "you" of tomorrow will have to live with the consequences of actions done by the "you" of today, which is a way of describing kamma.

In any case, Buddhism does not teach Atman and Brahman, those are Hindu beliefs. Not that there is actually any EVIDENCE for either of these beliefs, but that is perhaps another discussion.

Punabhava , ...being a sanskrit word means Puna :born ....Bhava ; manner of acting or being , Bhava is a personal mood or emotion , a manner of being , ....makinng ...Punabhava :born again , transmigrated , .......and allows for differne individual manners of being .


please before you object to the sanskrit meaning please question why the Buddha used sanskrit terminology if this was not what he meant ?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I think it is beliefs like soul, god and oneness which need to be challenged. There is nothing to support them!

I agree, I think they should be challenged. I believe in spirits; and, I will be the first to admit that how I interpret it is not an external truth (that would be a delusion, on my part) but comes from my mind and how my mind sees things etc.

If we knew this about how we see god, oneness, soul, and spirit then it would make for easier conversation. Since not all of our beliefs, line of thought, and experiences can be supported but when stated as fact, then, yes, I think challenge would be good.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So the Buddhists here are not really proper Buddhists? Who on earth are you to make such patronising and ill-informed pronouncements? It really is none of your business frankly.
If I have been keeping track George and Wizanda are both very outspoken on at least 4 religions. Its impressive to say the least. Who are you to comment since you only understand 1 religion?
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Namaskaram Mr O'Shez
Punabhava , ...being a sanskrit word means Puna :born ....Bhava ; manner of acting or being , Bhava is a personal mood or emotion , a manner of being , ....makinng ...Punabhava :born again , transmigrated , .......and allows for differne individual manners of being .

please before you object to the sanskrit meaning please question why the Buddha used sanskrit terminology if this was not what he meant ?

It's slightly different in Pali compared to Sanskrit. Look it up. In any case "re-becoming" or "rebirth" captures the meaning well.

To repeat for the umpteenth time, Buddhism does NOT teach Atman and Brahman, those are Hindu beliefs.
 
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von bek

Well-Known Member
From the Dalai Lama's site:

On the whole, non-Buddhist Indian schools have more or less come to the conclusion that the "self" really refers to this independent agent or atman. It refers to what is independent of our body and mind. Buddhist traditions on the whole have rejected the temptation to posit a "self," an atman, or a soul that is independent of our body and mind. Among Buddhist schools there is consensus on the point that "self" or "I" must be understood in terms of the aggregation of body and mind. But as to what, exactly, we are referring when we say "I" or "self," there has been divergence of opinion even among Buddhist thinkers. Many Buddhist schools maintain that in the final analysis we must identify the "self" with the consciousness of the person. Through analysis, we can show how our body is a kind of contingent fact and that what continues across time is really a being's consciousness.

Of course, other Buddhist thinkers have rejected the move to identify "self" with consciousness. Buddhist thinkers such as Buddhapalita and Chandrakirti have rejected the urge to seek some kind of eternal, abiding, or enduring "self." They have argued that following that kind of reasoning is, in a sense, succumbing to the ingrained need to grasp at something. An analysis of the nature of "self" along these lines will yield nothing because the quest involved here is metaphysical; it is a quest for a metaphysical self in which, Buddhapalita and Chandrakirti argue, we are going beyond the domain of the understanding of everyday language and everyday experience. Therefore "self," person, and agent must be understood purely in terms of how we experience our sense of "self." We should not go beyond the level of the conventional understanding of "self" and person.

http://dalailama.com/teachings/training-the-mind/verse-1
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
You are being wilfully ignorant, and you are clearly not interested in a proper understanding of Buddhist teachings at all. What I said makes perfect sense and is consistent with what is described in the Buddhist suttas. Go away and study them for a couple of years if you want to have a grown-up conversation about it,
I guess the Dalai Lama has not studied enough too.
otherwise stop wasting my time.
Good idea
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
If I have been keeping track George and Wizanda are both very outspoken on at least 4 religions. Its impressive to say the least. Who are you to comment since you only understand 1 religion?

Yes, I feel very inadequate! The phrase "jack of all trades and master of none" springs to mind when thinking about certain other contributors here. Invariably such people tend to make stuff up to cover the huge gaps in their knowledge, all mouth and trousers as we say in England.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
I do not like sarcasm, I hate assumptions.
Sorry first of all, yet it wasn't an assumption, from the offset you didn't pay attention, and recreated your own meanings for the words, so i repeated it 3 times for you. :oops:
Invariably such people tend to make stuff up to cover the huge gaps in their knowledge.
Actually some of us Google stuff; I've never met anyone who claims to be Buddhist with such a huge ego/self.... So in comparison i can fix my lack of knowledge. :oops:
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I think I shall start a thread called "Christians don't believe in God" and claim this came to me in a vision.
And Brahman is just a metaphor. I shall make up an a weird non-theist religion and claim all the world religions fit into it ever so neatly. Maybe something based on UFOs?
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Actually some of us Google stuff; I've never met anyone who claims to be Buddhist with such a huge ego/self....

Have you looked at yourself recently? I am not the one pretending to be a prophet and preaching a weird DIY religion, and telling people in authentic traditions that they have got it all wrong.

Can't you just keep your delusional ideas to yourself?
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
sorry first of all, yet it wasn't an assumption, from the offset you didn't pay attention, and recreated your own meanings for the words, so i repeated it 3 times for you

Yes, it is an assumption and it is wrong.

You said soul is character. Character is part of our identity.
You didn't explain what self means other than referring to anatta
You didn't describe life.

You just said they all had a root word breathe. Then you gave me a link that is opinionated (if you read that) and god-focused; so, it is not a good source of objective reference. It just supports how you see things not how a Buddhist does and definitely not referring to how The Buddha sees things by using the suttas themselves.

Just because I disagree doesn't mean I misinterpret you nor does it mean I didn't read what you said.​

We'll use your terminology since mine doesn't connect with you.

The Buddha doesn't talk about the soul as in character. In the link I gave you and what you gave me, he talks about non-self and self. Emptiness. If anything, saying we are anything is opposite of what The Buddha teaches. He says we are ever changing. Stating that we have something permanent (my words) is opposite what The Buddha taught.

I can support my point by suttas, you can disagree; that, doesn't mean I am wrong. I don't want to change your views just want you to understand where I'am coming from.​

The Buddha does talk about self. However, you are relating self to breathe, he does not. He talks about self, as in the link you gave me, as ego, personality, and so forth. He says we have self (ego and all that) and we don't (we are not defined by that). It's a constant change. However, it doesn't mean breathe. According to your link, breathe, life force, or atman are not part of the list of characteristics that make up with the author describes as a soul.

You said the root of the word life is breathe. Unless you clarify, I take that to mean the life-force or atman that not only gives life to people but to the universe as a whole-->it is a Hindu concept not a Buddhist concept.

Now, Ima challenge your beliefs.

You believe in Oneness. I am assuming from pass conversations and trying to decipher computer terms and concepts, that oneness being in unity and wholeness (holistic) with everything, everything, with every concept, and idea. Being at One or at Peace. Something you experienced in your NDE experience you talked about almost a year ago and repeat.

There is no oneness in Buddhism. However, because that is what you see the world through, how can you see otherwise? You can say I am wrong; but, that doesn't change that you believe X, Buddhist believe Y, and in order to understand why you cann't see it through your eyes, you have to see it through a Buddhists eyes.

You have to ask and accept the answer a Buddhist gives you about his or her own faith. You also have to accept the interpretations, opinions, from Buddhist (not Christians or any other non-buddhists) of the sutras because we know more about it personally than, so far I know, you have.

If you want to create oneness with everyone and everything, take a step back from the sarcasm for a minute. Don't argue with me. Seek to understand not to disprove. Until then, how can you come to oneness with people who disagree with you? How can you accept that there are different ways people see reality and even though you don't see it that way, that does not invalidate their views--nor does it mean they misunderstood you, did not read what you wrote, and a whole other list of reasons you may naturally give when our views conflict with yours.

I don't want to change your views just want you to understand where I'am coming from.

I mean, if you say life, soul, self are all the same thing or root for breathe (whatever) that's your thing. However, since you are not a Buddhist and/or have not presented a sutra to support your point, how can I believe and understand what you say logically if your points are supported by opinions rather than facts?​
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Yes, it is an assumption and it is wrong.
You're getting the very basics wrong...

The terms Atman, Psyche and Nephesh have set definitions, they all mean life, soul and self; they come from the root breath, in all the religious cultures...Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism, etc....

This isn't an opinion, it is just the facts to begin, then you're trying to debate them basics.
You didn't describe life.
I'm not on about anything to do with life, etc, was merely stating the facts to point how we've got confusion later.
Then you gave me a link that is opinionated
These are textual related etymology evidence, Strongs isn't perfect, neither is Wikipedia, yet they are a good start source to understand the words basic meanings.
You said the root of the word life is breathe.
You seem very confused, sorry for any misunderstanding... As saying repeatedly, it is the foreign words from multiple different cultures, that all have the same root and meaning, not the English translations.
You believe in Oneness.
So does Buddha just reading the Lankavatara Sutra, which repeatedly speaks of Oneness. :innocent:
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
Namaskaram Mr O'Shez
It's slightly different in Pali compared to Sanskrit. Look it up. In any case "re-becoming" or "rebirth" captures the meaning well.

sadly it is only become different through minor missinturpretation , if the Buddha did not intend the sanskrit meaning then there would have been no point in its use in the first place , nor would the first council have permited its use .

To repeat for the umpteenth time, Buddhism does NOT teach Atman and Brahman, those are Hindu beliefs.

Purnabhava , has nothing to do with the teaching of Brahman or Atman , ...may I please draw your attention to both the Bardo Thodol , where in it is explained that ''the Consciousness''enters the Bardo the interval period between death and Birth or Liberation , ...

as you have not yet to my knowledge answered the question posed earlier by @George-ananda as to what exactly takes Re birth then you may find this interesting reading
 
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