Buddhists only: No Brahman Teaching in Buddhism

[Tyaga]

Nirvana is both death-less and (re)birth-less.

Yes.And Brahmabhuta is used as synonym of Nirvana.

"so anattantapo aparantapo diññheva dhamme nicchàto nibbuto sãtibhåto sukhapañisaüvedã brahmabhåtena attanà viharati."

http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/060-apannaka-p.html

This link translates the passage as :

"This is called an individual who neither torments himself nor is devoted to the practice of torturing himself, who neither torments others nor is devoted to the practice of torturing others. Neither tormenting himself nor tormenting others, he dwells in the here-&-now free of hunger, unbound, cooled, sensitive to happiness, with a Brahma-like mind."

Apannaka Sutta: A Safe Bet

The phrase 'Brahma-like mind' is quite awkward translation,they missed out

'attana' self
'(brahma)bhuta' Brahma become
'viharati' dwells

So possibly the correct translation would be :

'Having become Brahma(Brahmabhutena) the self(attana) dwells in it(viharati) i.e in the Brahma'.

 

[crossfire]

Still no Brahman yet, though.

 

[Tyaga]

Still no Brahman yet, though.

Isn't it safe to dub Brahma as Vedantic Brahman?

 

[crossfire]

Isn't it safe to dub Brahma as Vedantic Brahman?

No. Two different concepts.

Brahman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Hinduism, Brahman (ब्रह्मन् brahman) is "the unchanging reality amidst and beyond the world",[1] which "cannot be exactly defined".[2] It has been described in Sanskrit as Sat-cit-ānanda (being-consciousness-bliss)[3] and as the highest reality.[4][note 1][note 2]

Brahman is conceived as Atman,[note 3] personal,[note 4] impersonal[note 5] and/or Para Brahman,[note 6] depending on the philosophical school.

According to Advaita, a liberated human being (jivanmukta) has realised Brahman as his or her own true self.

The Isha Upanishad says:


Auṃ – That supreme Brahman is infinite, and this conditioned Brahman is infinite. The infinite proceeds from infinite. If you subtract the infinite from the infinite, the infinite remains alone.
​

Brahma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brahmā (Sanskrit: ब्रह्मा; IAST: Brahm&#257 is the Hindu god (deva) of creation and one of the Trimūrti, the others being Vishnu and Shiva. According to the Brahmā Purāņa, he is the father of Manu, and from Manu all human beings are descended. In the Rāmāyaņa and the Mahābhārata, he is often referred to as the progenitor or great grandsire of all human beings. He is not to be confused with the Supreme Cosmic Spirit in Hindu Vedānta philosophy known as Brahman, which is genderless. In Hindu tradition, the creation of Vedas is credited to Brahma.[1] Brahmā's wife is Saraswati. Saraswati is also known by names such as Sāvitri and Gāyatri, and has taken different forms throughout history. Brahmā is often identified with Prajāpati, a Vedic deity. Being the husband of Saraswati or Vaac Devi (the Goddess of Speech), Brahma is also known as "Vaagish," meaning "Lord of Speech and Sound."​

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

The Buddha used upaya, or skillful means, in teaching people, as Gjallarhorn pointed out. When we see terms like brahma or brahman used in the texts, we have to ask ourselves: in what context were they used? who was the audience the Buddha was speaking to? What was he trying to say? and, how does it fit into his overall teachings? When we ask ourselves these questions, we can clearly see that the Buddha never taught brahman according to how the Hindus understand it. This becomes even more clear when we examine terms like 'karma' and 'nirvana', and understand how the Buddha taught these terms, but redefined them in a way that distinguishes his teachings from Hinduism. So, just because we might see the term brahman in the texts, doesn't mean he was teaching the same thing as what the Hindus were teaching.

 

[Tyaga]

No. Two different concepts.

Brahman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Hinduism, Brahman (ब्रह्मन् brahman) is "the unchanging reality amidst and beyond the world",[1] which "cannot be exactly defined".[2] It has been described in Sanskrit as Sat-cit-ānanda (being-consciousness-bliss)[3] and as the highest reality.[4][note 1][note 2]

Brahman is conceived as Atman,[note 3] personal,[note 4] impersonal[note 5] and/or Para Brahman,[note 6] depending on the philosophical school.

According to Advaita, a liberated human being (jivanmukta) has realised Brahman as his or her own true self.

The Isha Upanishad says:


Auṃ – That supreme Brahman is infinite, and this conditioned Brahman is infinite. The infinite proceeds from infinite. If you subtract the infinite from the infinite, the infinite remains alone.
​

Brahma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brahmā (Sanskrit: ब्रह्मा; IAST: Brahm&#257 is the Hindu god (deva) of creation and one of the Trimūrti, the others being Vishnu and Shiva. According to the Brahmā Purāņa, he is the father of Manu, and from Manu all human beings are descended. In the Rāmāyaņa and the Mahābhārata, he is often referred to as the progenitor or great grandsire of all human beings. He is not to be confused with the Supreme Cosmic Spirit in Hindu Vedānta philosophy known as Brahman, which is genderless. In Hindu tradition, the creation of Vedas is credited to Brahma.[1] Brahmā's wife is Saraswati. Saraswati is also known by names such as Sāvitri and Gāyatri, and has taken different forms throughout history. Brahmā is often identified with Prajāpati, a Vedic deity. Being the husband of Saraswati or Vaac Devi (the Goddess of Speech), Brahma is also known as "Vaagish," meaning "Lord of Speech and Sound."​

Brahma has many different meanings in Sanskrit.

In the Upanishads,AFAIK,the term BrahmaN never occurs,instead it is read simply as Brahma.For example i cite from Chandogya Upanishad:

Sarvaṃ khalv Idaṃ Brahma
Everything here is Brahma

3.14.1

In this case,the term Brahma clearly refers to the absolute and not to the creator deity(which is post-Upanishadic concept,bastardized form of Prajapati).

 

[Tyaga]

So, just because we might see the term brahman in the texts, doesn't mean he was teaching the same thing as what the Hindus were teaching.

But isn't the phrase Brahmabhutena attana viharati a bit similar to the Vedantic concept of union with Brahma(N)?

 

[Ablaze]

I'm not a Buddhist.But i have came across many passages from Theravada suttas which speaks about Brahman and several times Brahman is equated with Dhamma.

"dhammakàyo itipi, brahmakàyo itipi, dhammabhuto itipi, brahmabhuto itipi "

27. Aggaa sutta - Pali

" so anattantapo aparantapo diṭṭheva dhamme nicchāto nibbuto sītībhūto sukhapaṭisaṃvedi1 brahmabhūtena attanā viharati."

51. Kandaka - Pali


Many other suttas also contain the term Bahmabhuta('Brahman become')which is attested in Bhagavad Gita as well.

In this sutta,the term Brahmachakka is used as synonym of Dhammachakka

12. Maha Sihanada Sutta - Pali

There are no Pāḷi suttas that make mention of the Vedic or Upaniṣadic notion of Brahman (ब्रह्मन&#2381 in any capacity.

The terms brahmabhūtaṃ, brahmabhūtena, brahmabhūtā, and brahmabhūto mean "become sublime" or "most excellent." Any fair and honest translator should be able to discern this.

To suggest that this in any way connotes that the Buddha became Brahman or merged with God is to mistakenly (and disrespectfully) project onto the Buddha's teachings what the Buddha himself considered wrong views (micchādiṭṭhi).

 

[crossfire]

But isn't the phrase Brahmabhutena attana viharati a bit similar to the Vedantic concept of union with Brahma(N)?

Well in the first reply to this thread, it shows that the Great Brahma was deluded, so your proposal in and of itself is not the goal of Buddhism.

 

[Tyaga]

The terms brahmabhūtaṃ, brahmabhūtena, brahmabhūtā, and brahmabhūto mean "become sublime" or "most excellent." Any fair and honest translator should be able to discern this.

Yes,i have seen amny transltors using this "best become" "supreme became" etc...bt the term 'Brahma' doesn't mean that.Also the term occurs in Bhagavad Gita where the meaning is quite clear i.e absorbed in Brahman

The Bhagavad Gita: A Text and Commentary for Students - Jeaneane D. Fowler - Google Books

( I hope you can view that page)

Possibly the BG phrase is from Buddhist influence,along with other terms like Brahma-Nirvana.

 

[Ablaze]

But isn't the phrase Brahmabhutena attana viharati a bit similar to the Vedantic concept of union with Brahma(N)?

Not in the slightest. The phrase "brahmabhūtena attanā viharati" uses brahmabhūtena in the adjectival as "most excellent," attanā as the reflexive pronoun "oneself," and viharati as "dwelling." Given an informed, contextualized reading of the Buddha's teachings, it has nothing to do with the Vedantic concept of union with Brahma(n).

 

[Tyaga]

Well in the first reply to this thread, it shows that the Great Brahma was deluded, so your proposal in and of itself is not the goal of Buddhism.

I believe that this particular Brahma of the phrase Brahmabhuta refers to the Absolute instead of Great Brahma(Maha Brahma) and the demigod Brahmas( there are many of them just like the Devas).

 

[Ablaze]

Yes,i have seen amny transltors using this "best become" "supreme became" etc...bt the term 'Brahma' doesn't mean that.Also the term occurs in Bhagavad Gita where the meaning is quite clear i.e absorbed in Brahman

The Bhagavad Gita: A Text and Commentary for Students - Jeaneane D. Fowler - Google Books

( I hope you can view that page)

Possibly the BG phrase is from Buddhist influence,along with other terms like Brahma-Nirvana.

Hopefully you're aware that the Buddha co-opted various Vedic and Upaniṣadic language, redefining these terms.

In the Buddha's teachings, brahmabhūt[...] means become sublime, become most excellent, etc., just as the term brahmavihara (referring to the cultivation of the four immeasurables, or appamaññā, namely mettā, karuṇā, mudita, and upekkhā) means sublime abode.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Brahman (ब्रह्मन&#2381 from the Vedas and Upaniṣads.

 

[Tyaga]

Not in the slightest. The phrase "brahmabhūtena attanā viharati" uses brahmabhūtena in the adjectival as "most excellent," attanā as the reflexive pronoun "oneself," and viharati as "dwelling." Given an informed, contextualized reading of the Buddha's teachings, it has nothing to do with the Vedantic concept of union with Brahma(n).

Is there any source for this 'most excellent' translation?AFAIK the term Brahma originally meant 'prayer' in earliest Sanskrit sources.I have never seen the term Brahma being used to refer excellence.

 

[crossfire]

Yes,i have seen amny transltors using this "best become" "supreme became" etc...bt the term 'Brahma' doesn't mean that.Also the term occurs in Bhagavad Gita where the meaning is quite clear i.e absorbed in Brahman

The Bhagavad Gita: A Text and Commentary for Students - Jeaneane D. Fowler - Google Books

( I hope you can view that page)

Possibly the BG phrase is from Buddhist influence,along with other terms like Brahma-Nirvana.

Possibly, as the Bhagavad Gita seems to have been authored later than the Buddha's time, maybe roughly contemporary with Buddha if you are generous with the estimated date it was written. It would be a real stretch to claim that it is older than Buddha.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita

 

[Tyaga]

just as the term brahmavihara (referring to the cultivation of the four immeasurables, or appamaññā, namely mettā, karuṇā, mudita, and upekkhā) means sublime abode.

Yes,i'm aware of Brahma Viharas,it will lead you to companionship with Brahma.But in Karaniya Metta sutta,it is said that practicing Metta alone will help in attaining Nirvana(i.e you will never be born again in a womb).

 

[Ablaze]

Yes.And Brahmabhuta is used as synonym of Nirvana.

"so anattantapo aparantapo diññheva dhamme nicchàto nibbuto sãtibhåto sukhapañisaüvedã brahmabhåtena attanà viharati."

60. Apannaka - Pali

Not in the way you imagine it. Here, brahmabhūtā refers specifically to dwelling supremely free of all attachments. Likewise, nibbuto refers to the nibbāna (निब्बा&#2344 that is free of all attachments.

One of the descriptives the Buddha applies to nibbāna is asaṅkhata, meaning unconditioned, uncompounded, unborn. People who take this on face value, viewing the words superficially, falsely assume this refers to a substratum/being/force that is unconditioned. However, throughout the asaṅkhatasaṃyuttaṃ (the Book on the Unconditioned from the Samyutta Nikaya), the Buddha consistently equates nibbāna with asaṅkhata in the sense that the extinction of suffering (i.e., nibbāna) is a state beyond all conditioning (asaṅkhata) because the conditions for suffering are destroyed (rāgakkhayo dosakkhayo mohakkhayo).

This link translates the passage as :

"This is called an individual who neither torments himself nor is devoted to the practice of torturing himself, who neither torments others nor is devoted to the practice of torturing others. Neither tormenting himself nor tormenting others, he dwells in the here-&-now free of hunger, unbound, cooled, sensitive to happiness, with a Brahma-like mind."

Apannaka Sutta: A Safe Bet

The phrase 'Brahma-like mind' is quite awkward translation,they missed out

'attana' self
'(brahma)bhuta' Brahma become
'viharati' dwells

So possibly the correct translation would be :

'Having become Brahma(Brahmabhutena) the self(attana) dwells in it(viharati) i.e in the Brahma'.

Not quite. The correct translation is "having become sublime (brahmabhūtena), one (attan&#257 dwells (viharati) in it [nibbāna - supreme bliss/the extinction of suffering]."

 

[Tyaga]

Possibly, as the Bhagavad Gita seems to have been authored later than the Buddha's time, maybe roughly contemporary with Buddha if you are generous with the estimated date it was written. It would be a real stretch to claim that it is older than Buddha.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita

That is exactly what i said,BG could have acquired the term Brahmabhuta(absorbed in Brahman) from Buddhist influence.I never claimed BG is older than Buddha's time.

 

[Ablaze]

Yes,i'm aware of Brahma Viharas,it will lead you to companionship with Brahma.But in Karaniya Metta sutta,it is said that practicing Metta alone will help in attaining Nirvana(i.e you will never be born again in a womb).

Then you should be aware that the term "Brahma" in this context is shifted to the adjectival form, meaning sublime, and does not refer to the noun Brahman (ब्रह्मन&#2381.

 

[Tyaga]

Not quite. The correct translation is "having become sublime (brahmabhūtena), one (attan&#257 dwells (viharati) in it [nibbāna - supreme bliss/the extinction of suffering]."

But the term nibbuto already occurs in the sentence so i think there is no reason to repeat it.

I quote again:

"This is called an individual who neither torments himself nor is devoted to the practice of torturing himself, who neither torments others nor is devoted to the practice of torturing others. Neither tormenting himself nor tormenting others, he dwells in the here-&-now free of hunger, unbound(nibbuto), cooled, sensitive to happiness, with a Brahma-like mind(this translation is awkward)."

Apannaka Sutta: A Safe Bet

Anyway,i think the meaning of words will change by the way you interpret them....