Bugging the Hell Out of Me..

[rocketman]

I prefer the Abraham that is depicted in chapter 18 of Genesis. This Abraham talks back to “God”, argues with “God”. This Abraham is horrified at the idea that “God” would kill innocent people. “That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”. It is a very different Abraham than the one who is willing to slay his own innocent son without argument just a few chapters later. I find it fascinating that such different attitudes towards “God” are displayed in this one character.

The question that I put to you is which is the more virtuous, which shows the greater humanity, the Abraham that argues with “God” or the Abraham who is obedient?

Interesting interpretaion FP. I'm a bit unsure what difference any of this makes to the OP. Old Abe reportedly went through afew rough patches with his maker, and like any relationship, it had some growing pains. It would actually be a little odd if there were no such contrasts me thinks. As I've just indicicated in a preceding post, he had good reason to believe that Isaac wasn't doomed. Besides, you are missing an important point, besides the fact that you left out that Abraham was asking if he could speak each time before he let loose, but also that he and God were personal, something God and most others at that time were not.

 

[fantome profane]

Interesting interpretaion FP. I'm a bit unsure what difference any of this makes to the OP. Old Abe reportedly went through afew rough patches with his maker, and like any relationship, it had some growing pains. It would actually be a little odd if there were no such contrasts me thinks. As I've just indicicated in a preceding post, he had good reason to believe that Isaac wasn't doomed. Besides, you are missing an important point, besides the fact that you left out that Abraham was asking if he could speak each time before he let loose, but also that he and God were personal, something God and most others at that time were not.

That is pretty much what I was trying to get at, the personal relationship between “God” and Abraham. That is what these stories are about, they are telling us about the nature of the relationship between Abraham and his “God”. Before I say anything else I feel I need to point out my perspective. I of course don’t believe in this kind of “God”, nor do I believe in Abraham. To me these stories are myths. Myths are never really about the characters that appear in them, the are really about us. So these stories are about our relationship with “God” (the universe, reality).This is why I think myths are important. The question is which Abraham will we emulate in our relationship with reality?

18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay is son.

And I do think that some people are making a mistake when they try to judge the actions of “God” (the universe) in these stories, I don’t think that is very helpful. “God is God” and the reality is what the reality is. But I do think it is appropriate to evaluate the actions of Abraham (because he is us). So what do we do when the universe presents us with the injustice of reality? Which is will enviably do. Do we do like Abraham as speak out against it, argue against it, fight against it? Do we chose to do whatever we can do to stop it?

Or do we do like the “other Abraham” did and just go along with it waiting for an angel of the Lord to appear before us and make it alright?

I don’t know what your choice will be. But I can tell you from personal experience that if you chose the latter, sometimes the angel is late, sometimes Isaac doesn’t fair so well.


Well that’s my view point anyway. Of course if you believe this story is actual history then I suppose that nothing I am saying will make any sense. As always your mileage will vary.

 

[Starfish]

I seriously doubt it.
But then, that is a topic for another thread.

I think it fits in this thread. It's pertinent to what Abraham learned by his experience. Anyone who endures a traumatic experience would naturally have a better understanding and empathy for others who experience similar things.

There are two things that I positively understand about GOD.

One is that He doesn’t murder or ask anyone to murder for Him.

Two, that GOD practices UNCONDITIONAL Love and doesn’t have a need to test this love in the response or reaction of obedience and worship.



Jesus chose the decisions of his own physical existence.



I am sure you will disagree with the responses but I just thought I should let you know that I did inquire GOD about this.

“The man they called Jesus lived his life according to the way he wanted to live it. He knew what his potential as a human BEing was, he set out to accomplish this, and he did. Not by what everyONE wanted him to become but what he decided he should BE.”

“Did Jesus die because it was MY will or something I had preordained? No, I did not choose to send him down to Earth, nor was it MY choice to have him crucified.”

“Jesus didn't fulfill some hidden agenda of MINE.”

“I never promised Jesus to you.”

HELLO IT’S ME: An Interview With GOD
Chapter: Jesus The Christ
Pg: 110.111.112, 119, 120

Make no misunderstanding, a relationship with the Biblical God can be precarious and life threatening and one who believes that it is glorifying or noble to die or kill in the name of this deity should not be comparably rating (or judging) the methods in which other human entites choose to exit (or to live) this physical existence.

IMO having no relationship with God is dangerous.

Jesus volunteered to do what he did. He went into it willingly, but not anxiously. He would have prefered that the "cup be removed" from him. But he knew what had to be done and that only he could do it. AND HE DID IT FOR US.

For some reason that I don't understand, God knew that Abraham needed to better understand this. It's easy to see that believing in a God who would kill is abhorant to many. But none of us can see the whole picture. We cannot see the life we lived before coming here, nor can we grasp the life we will live after. This is only a small, but very important part, of our whole existance. I know that God can see it all, so I trust him.

 

[Popeyesays]

Did God order Abraham to KILL,MURDER his son?

And the fact Abraham was willing to do it satisfied God?

And so God stopped him..Sure he did..

But Abraham was considred the most faithful of servant that he would KILL and MURDER his own son to satisfy God..God was PLEASED that Abraham would in fact KILL if God told him too..Abraham loved God..so much he would sacrifice MURDER his child..And God was happy that Abraham would in fact KILL MURDER his own child..

Whats up with that?

Love

Dallas

Or it could be allegorical to prove the point that obedience leads to its own rewards from time to time.

Why believe it to be literally true?

Perhaps Abraham was simply making a point that such blind and violent gestures of obedience have nothing to do with God's will in the first place.

Regards,

Scott

 

[rocketman]

Do we do like Abraham as speak out against it, argue against it, fight against it? Do we chose to do whatever we can do to stop it?

Or do we do like the “other Abraham” did and just go along with it waiting for an angel of the Lord to appear before us and make it alright?

Personally I choose to fight injustice whenever I can, but I think old Abe's situation wasn't like that. I think he realised that God could have taken Isaac without his help. Abraham was trusting in his and Isaacs maker to do the right thing. He saw him as the source of good, and I believe that's why he became so distressed when he thought God was going to act unjustly "Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Gen 18:25, emphasis mine)

But if it makes you feel any better, I know exactly what you are getting at.

I don’t know what your choice will be. But I can tell you from personal experience that if you chose the latter, sometimes the angel is late, sometimes Isaac doesn’t fair so well.

I'm sorry to hear that. I've been there myself. I hope it was nothing too upsetting. But I've also had the shoe on the other foot too, almost always when I've done all I can and can do no more. Personally I think we are all meant to have our fill of troubles, it's for a reason, but that's another story.

 

[DallasApple]

Or it could be allegorical to prove the point that obedience leads to its own rewards from time to time.

Why believe it to be literally true?

Perhaps Abraham was simply making a point that such blind and violent gestures of obedience have nothing to do with God's will in the first place.

Regards,

Scott

Thats right..Perhaps..and who knows..

All I know is Abraham was a GREAT man that he would KILL and MURDER his own child if "God said"....

Abraham was considered "faithful and obedient" that he would committ murder..(kill a human being ...his own child for ZERO other reason than God SAID).....With a knife he would have stabbed his own son to death on a rock..and that was a good thing...This willingness to MURDER his own child made God satisfied...

This highly confuses me..

Its O>K to murder/kill if God wants it...Even defensless children..

Love

Dallas

 

[Popeyesays]

Thats right..Perhaps..and who knows..

All I know is Abraham was a GREAT man that he would KILL and MURDER his own child if "God said"....

Abraham was considered "faithful and obedient" that he would committ murder..(kill a human being ...his own child for ZERO other reason than God SAID).....With a knife he would have stabbed his own son to death on a rock..and that was a good thing...This willingness to MURDER his own child made God satisfied...

This highly confuses me..

Its O>K to murder/kill if God wants it...Even defensless children..

Love

Dallas

Actually, there is a lot of evidence to poit out that the story of Abraham is not meant to be an historical narrative.

First the historical narrative is contradictory--there are two stories of Abraham which do not jibe, one in the Old Testament and the other in the Qur'an.

The other is that God intervened to provide Abraham with off-spring to founders of nations. Hard to do if one of them is to be killed, what?

Perhaps indignation in defense of children would be best aimed at today, not thousands of years in the past.

Regards,
Scott

 

[DallasApple]

Actually, there is a lot of evidence to poit out that the story of Abraham is not meant to be an historical narrative.

First the historical narrative is contradictory--there are two stories of Abraham which do not jibe, one in the Old Testament and the other in the Qur'an.

The other is that God intervened to provide Abraham with off-spring to founders of nations. Hard to do if one of them is to be killed, what?

Perhaps indignation in defense of children would be best aimed at today, not thousands of years in the past.

Regards,
Scott

Main Entry: in·dig·na·tion Pronunciation: \ˌin-dig-ˈnā-shən\ Function: noun Date: 14th century : anger aroused by something unjust, unworthy, or mean


Why now?..Why not then?...Especially because it was O>K? then?..Are you saying "things change"?

Love

Dallas

 

[rocketman]

This highly confuses me..

Its O>K to murder/kill if God wants it...Even defensless children..

Just out of curiosity, does it confuse you that God allows all of the other millions of deaths too?

 

[Popeyesays]

Main Entry: in·dig·na·tion Pronunciation: \ˌin-dig-ˈnā-shən\ Function: noun Date: 14th century : anger aroused by something unjust, unworthy, or mean


Why now?..Why not then?...Especially because it was O>K? then?..Are you saying "things change"?

Love

Dallas

We have no more or less reason to take the story of the fox and the grapes literally.

Do talking foxes make you indignant?

Regards,
Scott

 

[fantome profane]

Do talking foxes make you indignant?

Only when I go to the theater and they sit behind me and keep talking all the way through the movie. That really ****s me off!

 

[Nessa Nenharma]

Thats right..Perhaps..and who knows..

All I know is Abraham was a GREAT man that he would KILL and MURDER his own child if "God said"....

Abraham was considered "faithful and obedient" that he would committ murder..(kill a human being ...his own child for ZERO other reason than God SAID).....With a knife he would have stabbed his own son to death on a rock..and that was a good thing...This willingness to MURDER his own child made God satisfied...

This highly confuses me..

Its O>K to murder/kill if God wants it...Even defensless children..

Love

Dallas

This is why there are so many killings all over the world in the "name of God". If a murderer says they killed because "God" told them to, the people of today would think he/she were nuts and in some serious need of medical attention. When Abraham was willing to do it he was considered "faithful and obedient".

If someone says that "God" commanded it of them, how is anyone (that believes in the Christian God) able to refute those claims? For if you refute the claims of people doing "God's" works, you must refute prophets, preachers, pastors, missionaries, and anyone claiming to do anything in the name of "God", not just the ones killing in his name.
Just my opinion.

:bb:

Nessa

 

[blackout]

Or it could be allegorical to prove the point that obedience leads to its own rewards from time to time.

Why believe it to be literally true?

Perhaps Abraham was simply making a point that such blind and violent gestures of obedience have nothing to do with God's will in the first place.

Regards,

Scott

That's an interesting line of thought/interpretation.
Far more positive than anything I could come up with offhand.
(still it doesn't seem to fit with other aspects of the narrative I think?)


Could someone put up links to the actual passages in one or two "online" bibles?
I'm just to lazy and bible worn(out) to want to go and do it myself,
though I'd like to read the story again, but this time as a myth,
and see if it speaks to me in any kind of a new way.

Some of you visit bible sites regularly,
so I'm sure it won't be any trouble for you.
Thanks.

 

[Popeyesays]

That's an interesting line of thought/interpretation.
Far more positive than anything I could come up with offhand.
(still it doesn't seem to fit with other aspects of the narrative I think?)


Could someone put up links to the actual passages in one or two "online" bibles?
I'm just to lazy and bible worn(out) to want to go and do it myself,
though I'd like to read the story again, but this time as a myth,
and see if it speaks to me in any kind of a new way.

Some of you visit bible sites regularly,
so I'm sure it won't be any trouble for you.
Thanks.

BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 50 versions and 35 languages.

Will get you a dozedn or so standard Bib le translations and search facility is very high by keyword or verse.

I'll ante up by providing the story from the Qur'an:

002.124
YUSUFALI: And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."
YUSUFALI: Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).
.
002.126
YUSUFALI: And remember Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"
002.127
YUSUFALI: And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.

002.128
YUSUFALI: "Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
002.129
YUSUFALI: "Our Lord! send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them: For Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise."
002.130
YUSUFALI: And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.
002.131
YUSUFALI: Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."
002.132
YUSUFALI: And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."
021.057
YUSUFALI: "And by Allah, I have a plan for your idols - after ye go away and turn your backs"..
021.058
YUSUFALI: So he broke them to pieces, (all) but the biggest of them, that they might turn (and address themselves) to it.
021.059
YUSUFALI: They said, "Who has done this to our gods? He must indeed be some man of impiety!"
021.060
YUSUFALI: They said, "We heard a youth talk of them: He is called Abraham."
021.061
YUSUFALI: They said, "Then bring him before the eyes of the people, that they may bear witness."
021.062
YUSUFALI: They said, "Art thou the one that did this with our gods, O Abraham?"
021.063
YUSUFALI: He said: "Nay, this was done by - this is their biggest one! ask them, if they can speak intelligently!"
021.064
YUSUFALI: So they turned to themselves and said, "Surely ye are the ones in the wrong!"
021.065
YUSUFALI: Then were they confounded with shame: (they said), "Thou knowest full well that these (idols) do not speak!"
021.066
YUSUFALI: (Abraham) said, "Do ye then worship, besides Allah, things that can neither be of any good to you nor do you harm?
021.067
YUSUFALI: "Fie upon you, and upon the things that ye worship besides Allah! Have ye no sense?"..

 

[robtex]

Did God order Abraham to KILL,MURDER his son?

And the fact Abraham was willing to do it satisfied God?


Whats up with that?

Love

Dallas

Dallas, I think I have read enough of your posts to come to the conclusion that your perception of the Bible (since you Baptist I think "The Bible" = KJV) is that it is the inspired word of God and a book of analogies and symbolic representations. If I am correct this you are actually a question based on a literal inerrant interpretation which is incongruent with what I think is your actual perception.

If you are an inerrant and feel that incident really took place, as opposed to being a story of symbolism or maybe an analogy, than disregard the above paragraph and slap me

but if you do see it as analogies and symbolism than it is some symbolic representation that meant something to the unknown author that we can never know and may or may not contain value you feel you can pull from it.

Let me give you a parallel. I pulled from Dr Seuss,'s "Green Eggs and Ham" that the story didn't really happen but that the moral of the story was it is good to try things many times before deciding if we like them or not. It does not detract from my interpreted meaning story that it never happened because I see the value in the idea presented as opposed to if it even was actual or not. In that way you could assess I think "Green Eggs and Ham" is the inspired word of Dr. Seuss as opposed to an actual event.

If you see biblical stories in the way I see Dr Seuss stories than I suppose you can assign meaning to some of the stories and not others as symbolic ideas related to your religion.

That way doesn't come without a metaphysical price-tag of course but perhaps finding where you stand on inerrant vs inspirational analogies is part of your and other theists spirtual journeys.

 

[Starfish]

Thats right..Perhaps..and who knows..

All I know is Abraham was a GREAT man that he would KILL and MURDER his own child if "God said"....

Abraham was considered "faithful and obedient" that he would committ murder..(kill a human being ...his own child for ZERO other reason than God SAID).....With a knife he would have stabbed his own son to death on a rock..and that was a good thing...This willingness to MURDER his own child made God satisfied...

This highly confuses me..

Its O>K to murder/kill if God wants it...Even defensless children..

Love

Dallas

Actually, Dallas, Isaac was big enough to not be defenseless. Abraham was a very old man. When Isaac realized what they were there for, he was willing because he trusted his father. (This really was a type of the sacrifice of Jesus.)

 

[DallasApple]

Dallas, I think I have read enough of your posts to come to the conclusion that your perception of the Bible (since you Baptist I think "The Bible" = KJV) is that it is the inspired word of God and a book of analogies and symbolic representations. If I am correct this you are actually a question based on a literal inerrant interpretation which is incongruent with what I think is your actual perception.

If you are an inerrant and feel that incident really took place, as opposed to being a story of symbolism or maybe an analogy, than disregard the above paragraph and slap me

but if you do see it as analogies and symbolism than it is some symbolic representation that meant something to the unknown author that we can never know and may or may not contain value you feel you can pull from it.

Let me give you a parallel. I pulled from Dr Seuss,'s "Green Eggs and Ham" that the story didn't really happen but that the moral of the story was it is good to try things many times before deciding if we like them or not. It does not detract from my interpreted meaning story that it never happened because I see the value in the idea presented as opposed to if it even was actual or not. In that way you could assess I think "Green Eggs and Ham" is the inspired word of Dr. Seuss as opposed to an actual event.

If you see biblical stories in the way I see Dr Seuss stories than I suppose you can assign meaning to some of the stories and not others as symbolic ideas related to your religion.

That way doesn't come without a metaphysical price-tag of course but perhaps finding where you stand on inerrant vs inspirational analogies is part of your and other theists spirtual journeys.

Thats right..and thank you.. love Green Eggs and Ham..(the book) ....read it hundreds of times as a child and to my children..(plus more Dr.Suesss)...I knew that wasnt "real"..But I understood the moral..my interpretation of green eggs and ham?.."dont say you hate something or dont like it..untill you have tried it at least once.."..(and maybe with a fox??? LOL)

I have trouble with the Bible though..Dr.Suess is more on my level ya know?

And I wasnt raised Baptist..my mother was...She raised us Presbyterian...But yes ..KJV was my little leather bound white Bible..didnt understand a WORD in it..

I dont believe litterally all the stories..No sir..Just have a hard time interpreting..what the symbolism means at times..Other times its clear..Other times I see it as litteral..Sometimes I see injustices and it outrages me..And all..sometimes I see injustices and Im sitting alone..Not even a Christian..(to some) so Im ostrisized..

anyway...I LOVE Dr.Suess..

I love nursery rhyemes period...

Figure this one out...

Peter Peter...Pumpkin eater ..
Had a wife and couldnt keep her...
Put her in a Pumpkin shell...
And there he kept her very well!..(is she a prostitute or a rebel?)

or...

Its raining its pouring ...
The old man is snoring ....
Bumped his head and went to bed...
And couldnt get up in the morning!(is he dead? or just hung over?)

Now I KNOW what this one means...

When I was single...
Dressed up so fine!!
Now I am married ..go ragged all the time...
LORD ......I wish a was a single girl again!!!

LOL...Just kidden..

Love

Dallas

 

[Ringer]

Not sure if this was covered or not but I think many people fail to forget that Isaac at the time was probably around 40 years old. This wasn't just a test for Abraham and Isaac as well. Not only that, but I don't think this was done to necessarily to test the obedience/faith of the two but to show that, ultimately, human sacrfice is NOT what God desires. I believe this was probably a little more shocking than it is in today's culture where human sacrfice is strictly taboo. They lived in a culture where human sacrifice was common. Maybe God felt that it took a little more than just having Abraham proclaim, "God told me that human sacrifice should no longer continue and we should use animals instead". Maybe this is why the Ram was there in the first place. To show that God, at the time, approved of animal sacrifices and not human. If this is redundant, I apologize.