Burden of proof

[SkepticThinker]

Morals cover thousands of human interactions. Some of the responses are absolute in nature, some are grey areas. Why is this difficult for you?

So they aren't absolute, as I've been saying since the beginning.
You agree with me now, apparently. That's progress!

Homosexuals have issues that IMHO Jesus can fix. God loves us and is kind. A lot of the Mosaic Law, however, causes people attuned to God to reverence/beware and skeptics to foam.

The only issue they have that I can see is having to deal with people like you, who think there is something wrong with them, based on what some bronze age humans wrote in a book thousands of years ago.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Rather the counseling we do has helped people find peace and joy. Yet another area in which you want to throw stones but don't want to discuss things offline. Let's discuss this as friends offline so we can clear away your misconceptions.

My friends don't try to hurt gay people.

You can try to justify yourself where everyone can see it.

 

[Sheldon]

Homosexuals have issues

Mainly with bigotry and prejudice that result in homophobia, and who can blame them.

 

[Sheldon]

Rather the counseling we do has helped people find peace and joy.

Gay people don't need counselling, they need an end to bigotry and prejudice.

Yet another area in which you want to throw stones but don't want to discuss things offline.

Is it me or does that invite sound slightly sinister, given the other comments about gay people?

Let's discuss this as friends offline so we can clear away your misconceptions.

What misconceptions, you have made some deeply homophobic comments, they're pretty hard to misconceive.

 

[Bird123]

The burden of proof lies with the one who claim to know, or claim his or her belief is the one true belief.

Burden of Proof lies with the one who seeks the knowledge. One who Discovers never depends upon the claims or beliefs of others. One finds their own proof. On the other hand, The beliefs and claims of others might point a direction by which one can search for the truth themselves.

Accepting is never the end point of one who seeks the Real Truth!!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Sheldon]

One finds their own proof.

It is hard to imagine a method more perfectly designed for a biased and entirely subjective outcome. So yes it seems the perfect method to preserve any belief for which no objective evidence can be demonstrated.

 

[Bird123]

It is hard to imagine a method more perfectly designed for a biased and entirely subjective outcome. So yes it seems the perfect method to preserve any belief for which no objective evidence can be demonstrated.

Is it really feelings that lead the hungry student to knowledge? One should always lead with Intellect or the Reason half. If one chooses to lead with the feeling half, one could end up being lost in a sea of emotions. It's never fun being lost.

Those that seek real truth do not limit themselves on mere feelings. Further, one chooses to be open for all possibilities rather than wall oneself into what feels good or feels right.

Which do you choose? Do you seek? Maybe you wait to accept or believe what others bring to you. One who seeks will do the work necessary to Discover the answers rather than waiting for someone else to bring it home.

Has religion corrupted people's thinking? Have they taught everyone to value beliefs and do nothing but accept or reject? Maybe people embrace this because accepting or rejecting takes so little work.

Yes, allow others to do the work even to the point they must convince you or have burden of proof so you can make the accepting or rejecting easier for yourself. Is this really the best choice? Hardly. Can you not see this?

Search your soul. Be True to yourself. What is it that you really seek or do you even seek at all? Is it all just you wanting to be right and has nothing to do with what actually is or is that what is with you?

I think religion has hurt you badly. You hang unto religion so badly that you value so many of the principles you fight so endlessly. Does accepting or rejecting Beliefs really have so much merit with you?

Let's look at a few of God's actions. God doesn't ask anyone to prove anything. Further, God doesn't give knowledge, asking anyone to believe or reject. God places knowledge around us all. It waits to be Discovered by those who seek. There are no real short cuts!!

I do my best to copy God. I find copying Great Intellect delivers much better results!! On the other hand, people choosing their own paths will lead to the lessons they really need to learn. You have my blessing.

I will always be that Hungry Student!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Willamena]

The burden of proof lies with the one who claim to know, or claim his or her belief is the one true belief.

The burden of proof lies with the truth. If a person makes a claim that professes, or even implies, truth then they carry that burden.

Knowing is having a justified true belief.

 

[Sheldon]

Is it really feelings that lead the hungry student to knowledge?

No, more likely it'll lead them to KFC or Pizza Hut.

 

[Sheldon]

Those that seek real truth do not limit themselves on mere feelings. Further, one chooses to be open for all possibilities rather than wall oneself into what feels good or feels right.

There is only truth, real truth is a tautology, and why you are telling me this is a mystery? Do you really imagine I subject claims to my emotions, let alone solely to my emotions? If so you are woefully mistaken.

Your claim was that "people find their own proof" again it's hard to imagine a more subjectively biased notion than that. Your non-sequitur into emotions seems to have no relevance to my response?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Studies show that such "counseling" is harmful to people and doesn't help "people find peace and joy."

What does the scholarly research say about whether conversion therapy can alter sexual orientation without causing harm? | What We Know
Statement of the Independent Forensic Expert Group on Conversion Therapy - PubMed
Prevalence of Exposure to Sexual Orientation Change Efforts and Associated Sociodemographic Characteristics and Psychosocial Health Outcomes among Canadian Sexual Minority Men - PubMed
The Lies and Dangers of "Conversion Therapy"

Canada, Brazil, Germany, Chile, Albania, New Zealand, Mexico and Ecuador have banned, or are in the process of banning "gay conversion therapy" because it's harmful and has been discredited.

As I've already mentioned, there is a palpable difference between conversion/aversion "therapy" and counseling for childhood trauma.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So they aren't absolute, as I've been saying since the beginning.
You agree with me now, apparently. That's progress!


The only issue they have that I can see is having to deal with people like you, who think there is something wrong with them, based on what some bronze age humans wrote in a book thousands of years ago.

Progress would be to recognize the wisdom of God here--give a number of absolutes then allow higher law/love of neighbor/God to show not only who is moral, but who is in right relationship with God. I acknowledge that atheists can love their neighbor but also that they do not love God.

I think there is a problem(s) with homosexuals based on several factors:

1) The Bible
2) What is observable in statistics regarding violence among partners/divorce for married homosexuals, etc. (arguable)
3) Anecdotal experience of people confused/in pain - partly from societal pressure, yes, partly from identity and internal conflict/partly from early trauma

 

[BilliardsBall]

You think Mosaic Law is right 99.99% of the time?

And 99.99% still is 0.01% imperfect. How imperfect do you consider God to be?

Huh? In Torah the two laws that trump all are 1) love God supremely 2) love neighbor as self. 99.99% of the time all is simple--the Bible can simplify wisdom (application law via justice and mercy) and also--rarely--we forego a law ("don't eat that!") for 1 and 2 (Jewish people ate horses in the Warsaw ghetto, etc.).

 

[BilliardsBall]

My friends don't try to hurt gay people.

You can try to justify yourself where everyone can see it.

Nor do I try to hurt gays or anyone. There is a difference between conversion therapy--which to me smacks of cult deprogramming in its violence--and working with homosexuals on the real issues--often, healing from past traumas and abuse. How does prayer and counseling for childhood/teen trauma hurt anyone?

I do a lot of counseling on a lay basis. You?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Mainly with bigotry and prejudice that result in homophobia, and who can blame them.

Have you done as much counseling/meetings with both Christian and non-Christian homosexuals as I have?

Issues include societal and church/family pressures, sure, also childhood/teen trauma and identity/internal issues.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Gay people don't need counselling, they need an end to bigotry and prejudice.



Is it me or does that invite sound slightly sinister, given the other comments about gay people?


What misconceptions, you have made some deeply homophobic comments, they're pretty hard to misconceive.

Your comments show lack of engagement/attunement. I continually approach your objections using hypotheticals/what if your comments are true?

Try walking a mile in my non-homophobic, non-illogical shoes, dude!

 

[SkepticThinker]

As I've already mentioned, there is a palpable difference between conversion/aversion "therapy" and counseling for childhood trauma.

You mean "counselling" people based on old debunked ideas about homosexuality arising from childhood abuse? Yeah, that's harmful too. And inaccurate.

It still boils down to your telling the person there is something wrong with them that needs to be changed. Why? Because some bronze age humans who wrote an old book say so.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Have you done as much counseling/meetings with both Christian and non-Christian homosexuals as I have?


Issues include societal and church/family pressures, sure, also childhood/teen trauma and identity/internal issues.

Do you have a psychology degree?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Progress would be to recognize the wisdom of God here--give a number of absolutes then allow higher law/love of neighbor/God to show not only who is moral, but who is in right relationship with God. I acknowledge that atheists can love their neighbor but also that they do not love God.

So we're back to you thinking morality amounts to just doing what God says and wants and loving that God (the specific God you believe in). People who follow God's commands (as interpreted by you) are moral, and those who don't are immoral.

And I'm back to telling you that if you believe that, then you aren't practicing morality. You're practicing obedience to authority, based on the whims and desires of some deity that you can't show to exist in the first place. That's about as subjective as it gets.

I think there is a problem(s) with homosexuals based on several factors:

1) The Bible

Who cares what the Bible says about them? The Bible (God, according to you) says they should be killed. How is that moral?

2) What is observable in statistics regarding violence among partners/divorce for married homosexuals, etc. (arguable)

Assuming this is true, and assuming the reasons you claim are the reasons for this, are you claiming that this violence occurs because people who identify as homosexual are more violent than people who identify as heterosexual? I.e. That there is something inherently wrong with them?

3) Anecdotal experience of people confused/in pain - partly from societal pressure, yes, partly from identity and internal conflict/partly from early trauma

And I'll posit again, that these people are experiencing pain and confusion because people like yourself keep telling them that there is something wrong with them that needs to be changed and so they feel marginalized from society and from their peers.

 

[Valjean]

Follow the evidence, however inconvenient or discomfiting.